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Pryor on Fire posted:They should bring the Hummer brand back every time gas gets cheap and then declare bankruptcy again and dissolve the brand 5 years after that and repeat this cycle until the end of the world. I think there was a dystopian science fiction book where something like that happened. The McRib of automobiles
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Sep 22, 2015 19:38
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VW probably isn't going to leave the US because they have that huge plant in TN that makes like a million Passats a year that they can't sell anywhere else. I'm going to go against the grain here and say that VW actually has nowhere to go but up from here. Diesel pass cars was always a technological dead end and they should have abandoned it years ago, but they seem to have clung to it as their only advantage because their 4 cyl gas offerings were all so bad that there was nothing else they could do. They *should* be on the right track now. The new 1.8T isn't bad, at least it's competitive in fuel economy with the rest of the market. They've wisely stuck with the tried and true Toyota/Aisin 6 speed FWD transmission which by itself probably puts them ahead of Ford/GM/Chrysler in terms of both driveability and powertrain reliability. The (gas) NMS Passat was always a basically good car, they just released a midcycle refresh on the day the diesel scandal broke and it's good looking with a great interior. Refresehd NMS Passat with the 1.8T is a solid competitor. You can even still get it with a stick, if it were a 6 speed it would be perfect. 90% of VW's current problems stem from the fact that the Tiguan is an awful piece of poo poo. I have no idea why they managed to not update it for seemingly a decade. The back seats were useless, the cargo area tiny, the interior was junk and it was only available with the carbon building 2.0T that guzzled premium (!) gas. The new Tiguan looks all right, if they bring it over with the NMS Passat drive train like a sane car company it should again be pretty decent. The 3 row crossover concept looks pretty decent too, bring it to market with the VR6 and a conventional auto with a diesel option and it should do well.
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Sep 23, 2015 00:32
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Wheeee posted:It's solid, has thus far been quite reliable, comes well equipped for the price, drives very well in terms of ease and comfort, and has no glaring problems. The Cruze isn't aimed at enthusiasts but quite frankly, in terms of being comfortable and dependable transportation, it beats the Corolla or Civic. It's a terrible toy, but great transportation. Eh I've had the misfortune to spend quite a lot of time in them and I'd take any Corolla or Civic (or indeed anything else in the class) over a Cruze. The non-turbo petrol is awful, the turbo is very thirsty and the diesel is a rattly, laggy mess (in fact I don't think they even sell it here any more). Neither the manual or auto transmissions are any good.
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Sep 23, 2015 00:42
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Throatwarbler posted:I'm going to go against the grain here and say that VW actually has nowhere to go but up from here. Diesel pass cars was always a technological dead end and they should have abandoned it years ago, but they seem to have clung to it as their only advantage because their 4 cyl gas offerings were all so bad that there was nothing else they could do.
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Sep 23, 2015 00:45
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You Am I posted:Diesel passenger vehicles are massive in countries outside of North America, there's no way any of the European car companies are going to drop their diesel engines anytime soon. It's slowly happening already as petrol economy improves. When I was last in Europe in 2010 there were virtually zero options for leasing or hiring a petrol, if I look now it's 50-50.
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Sep 23, 2015 00:47
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DEUCE SLUICE posted:People are loving morons with the memory of a goldfish. In what way are they "crushing it" aside from goon love? The 6 is outsold by the following cars in its class Camry Altima Accord Fusion Sonata 200 Malibu Optima Passat Hell in that segment alone the top car (Camry) will outsell Mazda's entire brand in the US. They make nice cars that look good but they are still playing in the minor leagues when it comes to actually selling them
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Sep 23, 2015 00:47
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Mazda's current lineup is ugly. Well, the Miata and CX-5 are alright.
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Sep 23, 2015 00:50
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You Am I posted:Diesel passenger vehicles are massive in countries outside of North America, there's no way any of the European car companies are going to drop their diesel engines anytime soon. Diesel passenger cars are massive in Europe and some other nations due to preferable economics, but they are one major emissions regulations agreement away, and there is one coming in the probable near future, from being phased out like the technological relics they are. The clock is ticking for the diesel.
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Sep 23, 2015 02:06
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/23/us-usa-volkswagen-idUSKCN0RL0II20150923?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews Not that much new information, however the New York State attorney general along with attorney generals from other states are launching investigations. So, VW may come under fire from individual states beyond CARB. The interesting thing about that though is that most states don't have direct relationship with the manufacturer, car sales are forced to be done though independent dealers. That has to have dealers sweating right about now since I'm sure states could view this as a breach of their franchise agreements and use it as grounds to revoke their license to sell vehicles. Sure, the dealers had no idea this was going on, but ignorance of selling illegal goods has never really been a valid defense.
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Sep 23, 2015 03:06
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Come on cheap diesels flooding canadian lots!
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Sep 23, 2015 03:23
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Powershift posted:Come on cheap diesels flooding canadian lots! Aren't they also basically illegal up here now too? VW stop-sale'd all their diesels up here at the same time, I believe.
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Sep 23, 2015 03:34
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PT6A posted:Aren't they also basically illegal up here now too? VW stop-sale'd all their diesels up here at the same time, I believe. Yeah, but our regulatory agencies have no teeth. they'll be fined 50 bucks a car they sold, and 100 bucks a car they're going to sell, and VW will have an easy dumping ground.
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Sep 23, 2015 03:38
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Powershift posted:Come on cheap diesels flooding canadian lots! You're dreaming. Never mind the exchange rate, the best you'd get is "$1000 cash back!!" on financing at 4.9% for 84 months.
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Sep 23, 2015 03:50
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bull3964 posted:http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/23/us-usa-volkswagen-idUSKCN0RL0II20150923?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews The counterpoint is that car dealerships basically own most local governments. They have to otherwise why would it be illegal to buy directly from the mfg like Tesla? quote:Diesel passenger vehicles are massive in countries outside of North America, there's no way any of the European car companies are going to drop their diesel engines anytime soon. The biggest car markets outside of North America are China, Japan and the EU, with maybe the Middle East a very distant follower if you go by dollar volume due to the oil rich Gulf states and Iran. Diesel passenger vehicles are more or less illegal in China and Japan and are virtually non-existant in the Middle East. The newest EU emissions standards more or less match the US standards, because the NOx levels in cities like Paris and London almost approach the levels in Beijing on some days and are a serious public health hazzard. Both cities now have blanket car bans similar to those used in Beijing, and this is almost entirely due to their policy of allowing diesel passenger cars, brought on largely due to EU governments being hilariously corrupt and in bed with their national car makers - globally the biggest makers of diesel pass cars are VW and PSA Peugeot Citroen. http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1094543_diesel-pollution-in-london-makes-air-worse-than-beijing-for-nitrous-oxides Diesel VW apologists not only want to continue driving their slow, lovely, unreliable and expensive cars beyond all reason, they literally want to give the rest of us cancer in the process. They are worse than coal roller trucks, because a diesel truck is at least good for something, like towing Miatas to the track or whatever. A diesel Jetta/Golf has no reason to exist at all.
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Sep 23, 2015 03:54
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Linedance posted:You're dreaming. Never mind the exchange rate, the best you'd get is "$1000 cash back!!" on financing at 4.9% for 84 months. My local dealer still has 2014s on the lot, and they're offering 0% at 84 months on the 2015s already. I would imagine every new TDI on american soil has already been written off the books by the company.
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Sep 23, 2015 04:01
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You're all assuming the US will let the cars leave the country in one piece. Right now, these 500k vehicles have about the same legal standing as your co-worker's cousin's totally legit imported GT-R. The government would be completely within regulation to seize and destroy every last vehicle since they are illegally imported. I know it goes without saying not to read comments, but seriously the comments surrounding these stories are amazing. This is all an oil company conspiracy buying out the EPA to get fuel efficient super awesome VWs off the road.
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Sep 23, 2015 06:51
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So if something like that were to happen, what recourse would an owner have if they got their poo poo sized and crushed? Would they be able to turn around and get the money out of VW, or is it just like "you owned an illegal thing and now you don't. you're welcome" kind of thing
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Sep 23, 2015 06:54
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Raluek posted:So if something like that were to happen, what recourse would an owner have if they got their poo poo sized and crushed? Would they be able to turn around and get the money out of VW, or is it just like "you owned an illegal thing and now you don't. you're welcome" kind of thing That's exactly how it works on a small scale. I mean, the person can pursue civil action against the company that sold them the fraudulent goods, but that's something that would have to be done by the owner. I don't think something like that will happen this time since the scale is so large. I suspect that the government will force them to buyout current owners if they can't mitigate the issue. I'm curious to see what will happen with cars that aren't/can't be brought into spec. They can't be left on the road as is.
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Sep 23, 2015 07:05
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I've been seeing an "11million cars affected worldwide!" thing thrown around in the media, is that all the 2.0 TDI that is the problem engine or was there something about all those cars sharing a common codebase to fake out the emissions testing? With the gas ones not actually being a problem because they can pass emissions testing regardless. edit: wiki says there are 11million of those 2.0 TDI engines out there, good lord.
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Sep 23, 2015 07:13
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Yeah, anything with a Type EA 189 engine is potentially affected.
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Sep 23, 2015 07:19
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I can't wait for the whole breakdown of the issue, because they're saying it's 40x the legal NOx level. the VW DPF system uses a catalytic converter to convert NO to NO2 to burn off the particulate at a lower temperature. That suggests it might need the increased emissions levels to do a proper DPF regen, so there are a couple different scenarios. 1. the engine can be tuned to run richer, cooler, produce less NOx, the DPF would have to run hotter, it may not be designed to do so. Result: less power, worse fuel economy, regen more often which uses even more fuel, and 1700*f exhaust 2. requirement of exhaust after treatment which involves installing a reaction chamber and heated piss tank. 3. forced buy back and diesels off the menu in the US. 4. software update that pleases the regulators, and slowly but surely kills the car. Class action suits that ultimately result in current VW owners receiving cheque for $11.83 in 2023.
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Sep 23, 2015 07:31
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Betting on #4, especially the class action amount.
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Sep 23, 2015 07:34
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Wheeee posted:Diesel passenger cars are massive in Europe and some other nations due to preferable economics, but they are one major emissions regulations agreement away, and there is one coming in the probable near future, from being phased out like the technological relics they are. The clock is ticking for current diesel technology but don't rule out future advances even if they blur the lines somewhat. Gasoline direct injection engines like EcoBoost inject the fuel directly at the time of ignition like diesels. A diesel that mixes the fuel into the air before it enters the cylinder potentially offers great fuel economy with very low NOx and soot emissions. The trick is that doing that means there's no way to precisely time the ignition by changing the spark or injection timing. If it ignites significantly before top dead center or detonates, Bad Things happen. It's theoretically possible to predict when ignition will occur and subtly change things like valve timing to shift the estimated time but it requires sophisticated computer control. Mercedes is actually working on an engine that can use compression or spark ignition depending on the circumstances. It's interesting though how enthusiast perceptions of diesel engines have shifted over the years. Ten years ago it was extremely positive to the point I was uncertain that these Magical European Dick Sucking Machines were the same thing as my 90 HP Golf TDI. Now it's a lot more realistic and maybe even pessimistic.
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Sep 23, 2015 08:01
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priznat posted:Betting on #4, especially the class action amount. I'm in no rush to sign up on the class action stuff because of this. I'm hoping for a buy back and then I'll get something else instead of having an out of warranty VW. I'm kind of amazed that class action suits are even legal with how they currently work. Win $102,000,000 but 100,000,000 of that goes to lawyers fees. It's loving stupid.
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Sep 23, 2015 15:52
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Whaddya know, Nissan can still do restrained automobile design. I would even say this thing looks good.  But they've forgotten how to paint a car: 
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Sep 23, 2015 16:32
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/23/us-usa-volkswagen-idUSKCN0RL0II20150923quote:
Also, the French aren't pulling any punches quote:German prosecutors said on Wednesday they were conducting a preliminary investigation into the manipulation of vehicle emission test results at Volkswagen, while French Energy Minister Segolene Royal said her country would be "extremely severe" if its investigation into the firm found any wrongdoing. VW shares are also apparently down 30% now since the scandal started.
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Sep 23, 2015 16:47
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If you think VW is leaving any markets over this, I have a bridge to sell you. They're not profitable as a brand in North America, but the group is probably profitable due to Audi's strength. VWGoA makes its money off the non-VW brands, and those are probably going to be drat near unscathed by this. VW is wildly profitable on a global basis, and although this gives them a bit of a black eye, I don't see it as being a long term issue outside of NA*. To be the global #1 automaker, you HAVE to be playing in the world's biggest market, it is a market with massive capital investment, and it is a market that it's nearly impossible to reenter. VW is dead set on being the global #1 automaker. *unless the 10.5MM units sold outside NA also have defeat devices... then things get interesting. All of this is assuming that it's a relatively localized issue.
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Sep 23, 2015 18:34
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Texturematic(tm) finish gloss effect paint Graphite Blue $375
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Sep 23, 2015 18:40
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:If you think VW is leaving any markets over this, I have a bridge to sell you. They're not profitable as a brand in North America, but the group is probably profitable due to Audi's strength. VWGoA makes its money off the non-VW brands, and those are probably going to be drat near unscathed by this. VW is wildly profitable on a global basis, and although this gives them a bit of a black eye, I don't see it as being a long term issue outside of NA*. I doubt most consumers in the US know Audi = VW
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Sep 23, 2015 18:50
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:*unless the 10.5MM units sold outside NA also have defeat devices... then things get interesting. All of this is assuming that it's a relatively localized issue. If American emissions limits aren't over 40 times more stringent than the rest of the world, the engines wouldn't pass emissions in those countries without cheating either.
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Sep 23, 2015 18:54
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:
They've already been confirmed as having the defeat devices. The only question at this point is if they have mattered in the other markets. Keep in mind that the fines proposed by the EPA are enough to wipe out a year and a half of global profit. That's not insignificant.
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Sep 23, 2015 18:57
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bull3964 posted:Volkswagen CEO Martin Winterkorn resigned on Wednesday, taking responsibility for the German carmaker's rigging of U.S. emissions tests in the biggest scandal in its 78-year history. I guess they're not counting that one time that VW literally stole money from its customers.
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Sep 23, 2015 19:03
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Hikaki posted:I guess they're not counting that one time that VW literally stole money from its customers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBdFm3nT93Y bull3964 posted:Keep in mind that the fines proposed by the EPA are enough to wipe out a year and a half of global profit. That's not insignificant. How much cash does VW actually have on hand? This could make the whole Porsche-VW buyout thing look pretty small in terms of its impact on the company.
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Sep 23, 2015 19:12
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PCOS Bill posted:Mazda's current lineup is ugly. Come on, the 6 is objectively good looking 
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Sep 23, 2015 21:09
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Sep 23, 2015 21:18
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dreesemonkey posted:Come on, the 6 is objectively good looking IMO, the 6 is one of the few cars that looks worse in person than in pictures. Though it still looks pretty good in person.
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Sep 23, 2015 21:19
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My girlfriend had been test driving small hatches and mini crossovers lately. We drove the CX-3 this weekend and it was actually really nice for the price. Leather interior, AWD, sunroof, etc for $25,500. 146hp makes it a bit lethargic, but we also drove the HR-V recently and the CX-3 beats it handily in every way except for the honda's cool rear seats. The auto transmission in the Mazda has a sport mode that actually works. The tranny holds gears and downshifts beautifully which makes it much more fun to drive than it should be. Having driven all the offerings from Honda, Subaru, Hyundai, Ford, and really everything in the segment aside from mini and Fiat, I'm heavily leaning towards the Mazda. Good looking car too.
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Sep 23, 2015 21:25
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When is the updated CX-9 coming because the CX-5 is too small for me. Would be nice to have the option in mazda and the current CX-9 needs a refresh.
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Sep 23, 2015 21:31
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:If you think VW is leaving any markets over this, I have a bridge to sell you. They're not profitable as a brand in North America, but the group is probably profitable due to Audi's strength. VWGoA makes its money off the non-VW brands, and those are probably going to be drat near unscathed by this. VW is wildly profitable on a global basis, and although this gives them a bit of a black eye, I don't see it as being a long term issue outside of NA*.
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Sep 23, 2015 21:37
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BoostCreep posted:My girlfriend had been test driving small hatches and mini crossovers lately. We drove the CX-3 this weekend and it was actually really nice for the price. Leather interior, AWD, sunroof, etc for $25,500. 146hp makes it a bit lethargic, but we also drove the HR-V recently and the CX-3 beats it handily in every way except for the honda's cool rear seats. The auto transmission in the Mazda has a sport mode that actually works. The tranny holds gears and downshifts beautifully which makes it much more fun to drive than it should be. Really wish you could get more than 184 HP in any of their cars, barring the CX9.
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Sep 23, 2015 21:53
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