Search Amazon.com:
Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us $3,400 per month for bandwidth bills alone, and since we don't believe in shoving popup ads to our registered users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
«582 »
  • Post
  • Reply
ReverendFaux
May 31, 2006

Oh don't you flop around at me like that. Are you listening little man?!



If I were to ask you for something you own, and you agreed to sell it to me, you would probably attach a price. After some negotiations, I would then hand you a stack of notes worth the amount we have determined. I take your goods, you take my paper money. You could then go drop your paper money into the bank, or you could just spend it in cash form. It's pretty much the basics of commerce (something for something).

But what if I got out my smartphone, asked you for an ID number, and then sent you virtual currency? A virtual currency, backed by math (not a deficit) that could be cashed out over the web for paper money?

This is BitCoin.

Wikipedia posted:

Bitcoin is a digital currency created in 2009 by Satoshi Nakamoto. The name also refers to the open source software he designed that uses it, and the peer-to-peer network that it forms. Unlike most currencies, Bitcoin does not rely on trusting any central issuer. Bitcoin uses a distributed database spread across nodes of a peer-to-peer network to journal transactions, and uses cryptography to provide basic security functions, such as ensuring that bitcoins can only be spent by the person who owns them, and never more than once.

What the gently caress? Why would you use this?

Wikipedia posted:

Bitcoin's design allows for anonymous ownership and transfers. Bitcoins can be saved on a personal computer in the form of a wallet file or kept with a third party wallet service, and in either case bitcoins can be sent over the Internet to anyone with a Bitcoin address. Bitcoin's peer-to-peer topology and lack of central administration make it infeasible for any authority, governmental or otherwise, to manipulate the value of bitcoins or induce inflation by producing more of them.[1]

So basically, BitCoin is an anonymous currency system used over the internet for goods and services. Still confused? Here's some help:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um63OQz3bjo

Ok, seriously, now I'm kinda clear on it. People known as miners "dig" for BitCoins by setting up powerful home PC's that try to pull off from the algorithm that makes BitCoins. Then, those BitCoins are transferred around the web to BitCoin generators and users. It's math money.

But what do people think about this?

LAUNCH posted:

Bitcoin is a P2P currency that could topple governments, destabilize economies and create uncontrollable global bazaars for contraband. (...) After month of research and discovery, we've learned the following:
1. Bitcoin is a technologically sound project.
2. Bitcoin is unstoppable without end-user prosecution.
3. Bitcoin is the most dangerous open-source project ever created.
4. Bitcoin may be the most dangerous technological project since the internet itself.
5. Bitcoin is a political statement by technotarians (technological libertarians).*
6. Bitcoins will change the world unless governments ban them with harsh penalties.

Ben Laurie posted:

Also, for what its worth, if you are going to deploy electronic coins, why on earth make them expensive to create? That's just burning money - the idea is to make something unforgeable as cheaply as possible. This is why all modern currencies are fiat currencies instead of being made out of gold.
Bitcoins are designed to be expensive to make: they rely on proof-of-work. It is far more sensible to use signatures over random numbers as a basis, as asymmetric encryption gives us the required unforgeability without any need to involve work. This is how Chaum's original system worked. And the only real improvement since then has been Brands' selective disclosure work.

If you want to limit supply, there are cheaper ways to do that, too. And proof-of-work doesn't, anyway (it just gives the lion's share to the guy with the cheapest/biggest hardware).

Could this really be the beginning of a New World Order? Is it just a nerdy waste of money? Recently, one BitCoin was valued at over $6 USD per BitCoin.

What do you think?


Further Reading
Boing Boing
April 9, 2011: Bitcoin: an open-source cryptocurrency that's actually used!
May 15, 2011: Bitcoin: a new "peer-to-peer currency"
May 17, 2011: Bitcoin - the cryptographic currency that won't take off (but really, really should)
May 21, 2011: BitCoin skeptics and boosters debate

Wikipedia

We Use Coins

BitCoin

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Autism Monday
Mar 18, 2005

anime comes to life and kisses me on the lips

Autism Kroners.

Emanuel Collective
Jan 16, 2008



LAUNCH posted:

Bitcoin is a P2P currency that could topple governments, destabilize economies and create uncontrollable global bazaars for contraband. (...) After month of research and discovery, we've learned the following:
1. Bitcoin is a technologically sound project.
2. Bitcoin is unstoppable without end-user prosecution.
3. Bitcoin is the most dangerous open-source project ever created.
4. Bitcoin may be the most dangerous technological project since the internet itself.
5. Bitcoin is a political statement by technotarians (technological libertarians).*
6. Bitcoins will change the world unless governments ban them with harsh penalties.

Sounds like a rigorous scientific study

IShallRiseAgain
Sep 12, 2008

Well ain't that precious?

So does BitCoin pay you in real money or their virtual currency to advertise for them?

ALL-PRO SEXMAN
Nov 8, 2006

Veni, vidi, Lombardi.


Asperger's-based fiat currency sounds like a terrible idea.

ReverendFaux
May 31, 2006

Oh don't you flop around at me like that. Are you listening little man?!

IShallRiseAgain posted:

So does BitCoin pay you in real money or their virtual currency to advertise for them?

I receive payment in the form of a small basket of sandwiches. But the people who make these surprisingly well-made videos and websites are paid in BitCoins.

ALL-PRO SEXMAN
Nov 8, 2006

Veni, vidi, Lombardi.


So basically you're doing this for company scrip, except there's no company store.

Good to know!

Versus Boredom
Sep 20, 2006


I'll take one human liver and six kilos of cocaine please. You accept BitCoin right?

Emanuel Collective
Jan 16, 2008



Vincent Van Goatse posted:

So basically you're doing this for company scrip, except there's no company store.

Good to know!

The company store would be the world economy, if these damned Big Government Regulations wern't stomping on our faces.

pathetic little tramp
Dec 12, 2005

HE IS GLISTEN


This really could lead to a revolution if only 99.5% of the people in the world wouldn't immediately say "oh so I can't pay my mortgage with this? gently caress you."

Thanks for the headsup and to know to avoid anyone who deals in BitCoins, though, I guess.

ALL-PRO SEXMAN
Nov 8, 2006

Veni, vidi, Lombardi.


Seriously, what the gently caress is this supposed to do? It's even more useless than other dumbass private currencies because it doesn't even exist in the real world.

kazmeyer
Jul 26, 2001

'Cause we're the good guys.



There's a thread in BFC full of people making fun of these guys and their hilarious belief that their internet nerd money is going to survive the coming economic apocalypse.

White Van Man
May 23, 2010

I see a ship in the harbor
I can and shall obey
But if it wasn't for your misfortune
I'd be a heavenly person today


Welcome to Snow Crash.

Cyril Sneer
Aug 8, 2004

Life would be simple in the forest except for Cyril Sneer. And his life would be simple except for The Raccoons.

So is anyone actually making real-life money off this?

winvirus
Jan 23, 2009

You only delay the inevitable. All of this island will soon belong to me.



Has anyone called them buttcoins yet? Am I the first to do that?

swolf
Aug 25, 2004
i need instructions on how to rock

Cyril Sneer posted:

So is anyone actually making real-life money off this?

The founders and early adopters mined a shitload of the low-hanging bitcoins at the beginning evidently, so they stand to become fabulously wealthy if it ever takes off.

bewbies
Sep 23, 2003



Cyril Sneer posted:

So is anyone actually making real-life money off this?

Yes, believe it or not.

As long as people are buying/using bitcoins, they have some value. If you bought them when they were cheaper you will have some unrealized gains, potentially.

This is also where the term "speculative bubble" becomes relevant.

Stephen Harper
Apr 13, 2011

Canada is a Northern European welfare state in the worst sense of the term, and very proud of it.


I just picked up like 130 bitcoins in Super Mario Bros. 3.

kazmeyer
Jul 26, 2001

'Cause we're the good guys.



swolf posted:

The founders and early adopters mined a shitload of the low-hanging bitcoins at the beginning evidently, so they stand to become fabulously wealthy if it ever takes off.

That and people selling on the spikes created by suckering in more bitcoin users don't do too badly.

SniperWoreConverse
Mar 20, 2010



Wait, so can I just "mine" a bunch of bitcoins and sell them for real people money?

Benminnn
Sep 28, 2002


One thing I've recently been interested in; given the total lack of regulatory oversight, what's stopping me from taking advantage of some of the more unscrupulous parts of capitalism via BitCoin?

For example, say I purchase $100k worth of BitCoins, and then subsequently start a small company and issue $1m USD of worth of BitCoins in credit. At the same time, I hedge any potential BitCoin collapse by shorting BitCoins with some OTC futures or something else similar, just like Goldman Sachs did by betting against their mortgage derivatives.

Esentially, what's stopping me from somewhat easily--$100k in capital honestly really isn't that much--recreating parts of the GFC for personal profit?

Note: I have no idea what the hell I'm talking about, and may have my head totally up my rear end.

edit: Reading more about this thing now, I'm way over my head it looks like. Oh well, nevermind.

ChickenMedium
Sep 2, 2001
Forum Veteran And Professor Emeritus of Condiment Studies

Vincent Van Goatse posted:

So basically you're doing this for company scrip, except there's no company store.

You "mine" sixteen coins and whaddaya get?
Another day older and deeper in debt.
Ayn Rand is gonna love me, but what does that show?
Can't buy Doritos with BitCoins, oh no!

Emanuel Collective
Jan 16, 2008



Stephen Harper posted:

I just picked up like 130 bitcoins in Super Mario Bros. 3.

MMO currency is actually a pretty interesting example of an alternative currency. WoW players aren't attempting to topple the world's economic system, however.

rotinaj
Sep 4, 2008



So, seriously, what the gently caress is the point of this.

Drone_Fragger
May 9, 2007

Ask me about moving familiy to England or claim NHS. Can fix marrying cousin no problem. Allah Ackbar!

This is a terrible currency because it's so unstable your money could be worth twice as much or half as much overnight (or over the space of a few hours) and theres already so many people bitcoin mining for their pretend money that they had to raise the difficulty of hashing a block by 50% last week.
Also the bouts of hyperinflation and hyperdeflation is hilarious. The value of bitcoins has gone from 1 dollar to 9 dollars, then back down to 5 dollars, then up to 8 dollars in the space of about 2 weeks at this point. And the thing is is that this is solely because the russian mafia used it for money laundering and bought like 50,000 bitcoins.

edit:

kazmeyer posted:

There's a thread in BFC full of people making fun of these guys and their hilarious belief that their internet nerd money is going to survive the coming economic apocalypse.

This reminds me, in yospos it was pointed out that there is literally no accountability in bitcoins whatsoever. If someone sells you something on the line and charges in bitcoins, and you give them the money but then they don't ship you the goods or just vanish completely there is nothing whatsoever you can do about it. You can't even put forward proof that the transaction even occurred because as I understand it the transactions are untraceable unless you are the one making it.

ReverendFaux
May 31, 2006

Oh don't you flop around at me like that. Are you listening little man?!

Benminnn posted:

One thing I've always been interested in; given the total lack of regulatory oversight, what's to stop me from taking advantage of some of the more unscrupulous parts of capitalism via BitCoin?

For example, say I purchase $100k worth of BitCoins, and then subsequently start a small company and issue $1m USD of worth of BitCoins in credit. At the same time, I hedge any potential BitCoin collapse by shorting BitCoins with some OTC futures or something else similar, just like Goldman Sachs did by betting against their mortgage defaults.

Esentially, what's stopping me from somewhat easily--$100k in capital honestly really isn't that much--recreating parts of the GFC for personal profit?

This is step 2, isn't it?

Note: I have no idea what the hell I'm talking about, and may have my head totally up my rear end.

The truly horrifying part is the amount of BitCoin Market trackers, that report in real time how much the coins are worth. The fact that they're about to hit 2 years old is quite amazing. The fact that something like this is still around after 2 years means there is an audience for them. I really don't get it, but I think it's fun. I'm not a miner, I don't see how people are paying off these rigs. But a quick youtube search will show up people praising and demonizing this poo poo.

ALL-PRO SEXMAN
Nov 8, 2006

Veni, vidi, Lombardi.


ReverendFaux posted:

The fact that something like this is still around after 2 years means there is an audience for them.

Yeah, and Timecube has been around for more than a decade. Invest in CubeCoins now!

AKA Pseudonym
May 16, 2004

A dashing and sophisticated young man

Benminnn posted:

One thing I've recently been interested in; given the total lack of regulatory oversight, what's stopping me from taking advantage of some of the more unscrupulous parts of capitalism via BitCoin?

That sounds like the whole point of BitCoin. "Technotarians" should have been a clue to that.

zeroprime
Mar 25, 2006

Words go here.

So is there a big overlap between people who use bitcoins and people who mine WoW gold/space spreadsheets/whatever the latest sperg game is?

Paradox Personified
Mar 15, 2010

SoroScrew


This is sadly hilarious.
"You can even purchase or rent pre-made systems specially designed for mining: Bitcoin Rigs", and that links to this: http://www.bitcoinrigs.com/

It's the new Alienware!

Edit:

quote:

The best place to find products and services available for Bitcoins is the Trade page on the Bitcoin Wiki.

You might also want to check the Bitcoin Marketplace forum on Bitcoin.org.

Over-the-counter trading is being done via IRC chat in Bitcoin OTC (#bitcoin-otc on Freenode).
Some crazy ads on those sites.

ALL-PRO SEXMAN
Nov 8, 2006

Veni, vidi, Lombardi.


zeroprime posted:

So is there a big overlap between people who use bitcoins and people who mine WoW gold/space spreadsheets/whatever the latest sperg game is?

Probably not. The WoW/EVE/whatever miners have a non-zero potential return on their investment because MMO players.

Bieeardo
Aug 21, 2000

Someone bold, someone blue, someone borrowed, someone new...


White Van Man posted:

Welcome to Snow Crash.

Aw man. I was hoping the future would be better written.

Drone_Fragger
May 9, 2007

Ask me about moving familiy to England or claim NHS. Can fix marrying cousin no problem. Allah Ackbar!

Also it should be noted that the rate of bitcoin creation is constant, so the more mining you do via massive rigs of CUDA enabled sli card setups to massively (and wastefully) hash blocks the less money you actually make. If everyone on earth suddenly had a pressing need to get bitcoins no one would actually get any.

Oh also the massive bitcoin rigs are enough to get the police knocking on your door with a search warrant for weed, because of the stupidly large electricity bills.

ymgve
Jan 2, 2004




Cyril Sneer posted:

So is anyone actually making real-life money off this?

I made about $50 by buying when the coins were $1 and selling when they were $6. But I'm 100% certain that this is a bubble and the price will crash down within weeks, so I wouldn't recommend others trying to do the same.

ReverendFaux
May 31, 2006

Oh don't you flop around at me like that. Are you listening little man?!

Paradox Personified posted:

This is sadly hilarious.
"You can even purchase or rent pre-made systems specially designed for mining: Bitcoin Rigs", and that links to this: http://www.bitcoinrigs.com/

It's the new Alienware!



The text at the bottom is what really gets me.

Mt Gox charges a small fee (0.65%) for each trade.

I have no idea whether thats .65% of the USD or the BTC

And this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FThX1cDg-tg

From this dude:

Bitcoin Mining Guy posted:

Bitcoin Mining Video. Got bitcoins? Got an ATI 5970? Buy a copy of this computer's hard drive from me for 150 BTC and have it tomorrow anywhere in the US, ready to boot just like you see here. USPS Express Mail shipping included. This is a demo of a hard drive I prepared with Ubuntu that mines Bitcoins using two ATI Radeon 5970 video cards. For more information about Bitcoin see Bitcoin.org.
A hard drive with Ubuntu with some pre-loaded overclock software. For money. For fake internet money.

ejstheman
Feb 11, 2004


IShallRiseAgain posted:

So does BitCoin pay you in real money or their virtual currency to advertise for them?

I think there's an interesting question, here. On the one hand, US Dollars and other such currency are accepted by more people by several orders of magnitude, and so they're "better" currency at the present, in the sense of being better able to provide the time-shifting and divisibility and so forth that currencies exist to provide. On the other hand, it's kind of frustrating to feel like weird forces you don't understand manipulate the values of currencies in ways that you could not possibly do, even if you did understand (because you are not a government and are not insanely wealthy). So, I can see why people would be willing to put some time into a scrip project, even if it's mostly just for fun.

Perhaps Bitcoins will end up being like a tech version of this.

Drone_Fragger
May 9, 2007

Ask me about moving familiy to England or claim NHS. Can fix marrying cousin no problem. Allah Ackbar!

ymgve posted:

I made about $50 by buying when the coins were $1 and selling when they were $6. But I'm 100% certain that this is a bubble and the price will crash down within weeks, so I wouldn't recommend others trying to do the same.

Nah its gonna be kept up by idiotic libertarians and the russian mafia, who need some bullshit untracable online currency to launder money with now that flooz is gone.

Bieeardo
Aug 21, 2000

Someone bold, someone blue, someone borrowed, someone new...


Drone_Fragger posted:

Oh also the massive bitcoin rigs are enough to get the police knocking on your door with a search warrant for weed, because of the stupidly large electricity bills.

Someone on Slashdot did some math when the astroturf rolled out there, and apparently figured out that the amount of money spent on electricity for those machines handily outstrips the value of any coinage they 'mine'.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Drone_Fragger posted:

This is a terrible currency because it's so unstable your money could be worth twice as much or half as much overnight (or over the space of a few hours) and theres already so many people bitcoin mining for their pretend money that they had to raise the difficulty of hashing a block by 50% last week.
Also the bouts of hyperinflation and hyperdeflation is hilarious. The value of bitcoins has gone from 1 dollar to 9 dollars, then back down to 5 dollars, then up to 8 dollars in the space of about 2 weeks at this point. And the thing is is that this is solely because the russian mafia used it for money laundering and bought like 50,000 bitcoins.

edit:


This reminds me, in yospos it was pointed out that there is literally no accountability in bitcoins whatsoever. If someone sells you something on the line and charges in bitcoins, and you give them the money but then they don't ship you the goods or just vanish completely there is nothing whatsoever you can do about it. You can't even put forward proof that the transaction even occurred because as I understand it the transactions are untraceable unless you are the one making it.

If it's being used in illegal transactions this alone tells me world govts will take it down. There's no way they'll allow something used by drug cartels and mafia groups to run unimpeded. I'm sure someone will cry out..."THE GOVERNMENT CAN'T TAKE DOWN OUR OPEN SOURCE COINS IT IS IMPOSSIBLE!", but everyone said you could never stop P2P stuff like Napster and the government does, one at a time. It still goes on, but nowhere near the way it did with Napster, Limewire, Kazaa, etc.

For curiosities sake, if I had an average or older computer running 24/7 on my cable internet, how long would it take to make 1 coin? How much would it slow down other computers in my house?

Or is the money to be made the way ymgve did, just speculating?

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Drone_Fragger
May 9, 2007

Ask me about moving familiy to England or claim NHS. Can fix marrying cousin no problem. Allah Ackbar!

ejstheman posted:

I think there's an interesting question, here. On the one hand, US Dollars and other such currency are accepted by more people by several orders of magnitude, and so they're "better" currency at the present, in the sense of being better able to provide the time-shifting and divisibility and so forth that currencies exist to provide. On the other hand, it's kind of frustrating to feel like weird forces you don't understand manipulate the values of currencies in ways that you could not possibly do, even if you did understand (because you are not a government and are not insanely wealthy). So, I can see why people would be willing to put some time into a scrip project, even if it's mostly just for fun.

Perhaps Bitcoins will end up being like a tech version of this.

The US dollar is also good because it's too large to buy up a large majority of the market to manipulate it with. Like what is happening with bitcoins. right now.

  • Post
  • Reply
«582 »