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I really, really loved that the antagonists in this movie were pretty much horror movie monsters, and made it obvious that Superman himself is a horror movie monster each time they interacted with him. It's really amazing how terrifying a super-strong, super-tough human can be, especially when they don't fly. I would've liked it if the film took more pains to show us Superman reacting to the property damage his altercations were causing, though.
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Jun 16, 2013 04:54
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A lot of the action in this movie felt video gamey, which is fine by me, since I like video games. Importantly, it was the kind of action you'd see in a good video game - one that gives solid, believable feedback to in-game actions rather than just floatily decrementing numbers somewhere. Some questions about action scenes from the end of the movie, I feel like I might've missed some details: 1. Clark just straight-up lost to the Indian Ocean terraforming machine, right? He never actually took it down, it just dunked him straight through the planet. 2. Was there a particular turning point in the Clark/Zod fight? It seemed like there wasn't anything that specifically gave Clark the upper hand once Zod had learned to fly and the two Kryptonians were bouncing off satellites and burning up during orbital re-entry, and Clark had just been lucky enough to land on top when the two of them smashed into that station with the family. Am I right in understanding that Clark never really definitively beat Zod, but was just lucky enough to be the first of the two to find an opening for a killing blow?
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Jun 16, 2013 17:22
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:
Oh my god I love this.
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Jun 18, 2013 20:49
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Untagged spoilers below, because we're on page 115 or whatever:
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BrianWilly posted:Anyone posted what "Birthright" writer Mark Waid thought about the film yet? I think Waid's criticism here is really overblown, but I do agree that they should've spared a minute or two more to show us Superman trying and failing to move his fights out of populated areas, or reacting to unavoidable casualties. It's actually kind of weird to me that people are so strenuously asserting that the emotional moment at the end of the last fight scene wasn't "earned" or whatever, because, like... you're not supposed to have to make a big song and dance about not wanting to kill people! Of course you don't want to kill anyone, that's called being minimally decent! Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Jun 19, 2013 |
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Jun 19, 2013 20:16
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Didn't someone post in this very thread a study that found that people reminded of Superman did comparatively worse on tests and challenges than people reminded of real-world heroic figures or of no heroes at all, precisely because Superman represents such an impossible ideal that it's just depressing to compare yourself to him? Like, strictly, that guy's right. I don't think Superman really inspired any hope in anyone in this movie, besides perhaps "Gosh I hope he doesn't snap and start crushing us like ants in the way that every other Kryptonian we've ever encountered has" (and, in a more positive sense, "Gosh, I hope my kid grows up to be a good person, because if he doesn't whooo boy"). That's the point, though - Superman is an awesome, terrifying figure, and it's difficult to fit him into the course of regular human life on earth. There's a tension between what Superman's father figures want Superman to do and what seeing Superman in action is actually like.
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Jun 21, 2013 08:34
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That youtube video by Landis or whoever actually made a really good point: Superman doesn't never ever killing because of a mighty oath or mental complex or whatever. He doesn't kill his villains because, largely, he's an adult among children. Even if you saw one kid kill another kid, you wouldn't kill that kid in revenge, you'd separate him from the others and try to get him help. Zod, though, was another adult - if you're in a room full of kids and the only other adult there starts trying to kill the kids, you don't hold back. The neck snap is rightly controversial, because it definitely puts front and center something that very few Superman stories really attempt to deal with, but it's a perfectly logical extension of the character.
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Jun 25, 2013 19:40
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Zod probably could be saved, is the thing. Clearly Kryptonian genetic determinism only went so far, or else Superman's dad wouldn't have been a good fighter, come up with the idea of having his own kid, or otherwise taken all that initiative. Zod wasn't being mind-controlled by his own genes or something, he was just making horrible and indefensible, if understandable, choices. If Superman had been ten times as strong as Zod, or had immense spellcasting powers in addition to his Kryptonian superness, or whatever, then we could rightly criticize him for killing Zod. After all, he should've instead just put his hand on Zod's forehead while Zod flailed helplessly, or trapped Zod in a force field, or something! But, Superman wasn't stronger than Zod, and in fact Zod was visibly growing stronger every second the fight went on. Also, let's say that Superman could've eventually gotten the upper hand and actually subdued Zod, and then devised some plot device by which Zod could be stripped of his powers and tossed into prison, if only he'd let the fight go on a little longer. How come that family has to get vaporized so that Zod gets to go to prison? Is Superman's perfect record literally worth all the deaths that would've been caused by Zod remaining at full power and in action for even several minutes more? Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Jun 25, 2013 |
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Jun 25, 2013 20:21
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teagone posted:I didn't say Zod was being manipulated into doing the things he did. I'm saying he did them because it's in his nature due to genetic tampering and as a result, nothing could turn him away from who he was, i.e., nothing could save him from being the soldier that would do anything, no matter how violent or cruel (Zod's own words verbatim from the film) those actions would be, to ensure the protection and survival of his people. Once he was stripped of that, because Clark took it away from him, he basically just went apeshit and would never stop until every single human was dead. That's definitely why he was doing what he was doing, but I don't think that's the same thing as him being categorically irredeemable or effectively a feral animal/automaton. If Superman had been an accomplished wizard and just zapped Zod into magic jail, then maybe after years of care and therapy Zod could've been reformed, who knows? The point is, it's not Zod's intrinsic nature or irredeemability or what have you that made killing him the right choice, it was the situation on the ground then and there. I'd argue that even if Zod was basically a good person who'd been under temporary mind control that was due to expire after only ten more minutes, Superman made the right choice on the spot. Timeless Appeal posted:Once again, the issue isn't so much that Superman killed someone. I'd probably do the same thing in his shoes. The problem for me is that they made a story in which that happened. A story which suggests that it needed to happen. It did need to happen, so that we could learn what kind of person Superman was. I think it's really important that Superman, at least this Superman, sees the preservation of life and avoidance of death as a moral responsibility that he willingly takes on, not as a pathological obsession. You could imagine that, in the exact same situation, a superpowered Batman struggling with a superpowered Joker would not snap the Joker's neck, ever, because Batman is a crazy person and the absolute 100% avoidance of all killing ever is just an inextricable part of his identity. (At least, some version of Batman wouldn't, I'm by no means an expert on the character) No doubt such a story wouldn't go so far as to allow the Joker's heat vision to vape an innocent family due to Batman's refusal to kill, though - instead Batman would toss a Bat-Mirror, or something. Meanwhile, for all his power, Superman is actually a more mature and realistic character who, at the end of the day, is capable of shouldering the burden of doing this stuff.
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Jun 25, 2013 20:49
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Man, I knew I shouldn't have used Batman as an example. I just wanted to conjure up the image of some actual classic No Killing Ever Ever Ever charqcter, and I knew offhand that Batman's categorical refusal to kill was a thing that in some stories was portrayed as irrational or otherwise problematic. I think the Nolan movies are a good example, though, because in those Batman kills loads of people but sort of glosses over it and otherwise pretends to nonlethality until the very end.Megaman's Jockstrap posted:But the movie gives Clark an out - he's a natural birth, a "real person". Zod is a flawed construct from a flawed society. He's little better than a self-aware robot, following his genetic programming and shouting "heresy!" at anyone who deviates from their Kryptonian imperatives. Zod wasn't a golem! He was a free-willed sapient being (at least insofar as anyone is). Superman's parents show inequivocally that genetically engineered Kryptonians had the same agency that any of us do. It robs Superman's decision of impact to claim that Zod was a malfunctioning robot or feral dog. The ID4 aliens are actually a great example because it's not like they didn't know what they were doing or something. In fact, just like Zod, they were honest to a fault as to heir motivations.
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Jun 25, 2013 21:36
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LeJackal posted:In this universe, Kal-El is still an immature child unable to grow out of his inappropriate and self-centered childhood identity as a unique and powerful messiah figure. Zod, by comparison, is keenly self-aware and honest with himself, capable of reflection on his motivations and able to find terms with his self-identity as it exists in reality. Superman isn't less self aware than Zod and doesn't pretend to be a messiah figure. His Kryptonian dad clearly intended for him to be one - Zor-El was clearly sympathetic to humans but not actually respectful of them, hence "How?" and repeated exhortations to Kal to save and inspire everyone - but in fact it's humans that repeatedly motivate and inspire Superman. Remember, Zor-El actually did want to turn Earth into a Kryptonian colony, which is why he sent the gene skull thing to Earth in Kal's blood. Superman decided against it.
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Jun 25, 2013 21:46
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There's no textual evidence that Zod was actually incapable of enjoying music or benefiting drom art therapy or whatever, though. Instead, there is direct evidence against it: Zor-El is an action-adventure who can hold his own against Zod in extended hand to hand combat! I've seen people name that as some kind of plot hole, but what it actually is is evidence that Kryptonian genetic determinism is bullshit superstition win no real deacriptive power. I mean, Zod literally calls Kal's birth "heresy"! Not illogical, not inefficient, heresy. Anyway, Kal was the son of two genetically engineered people - that's a single generation out of the birthing chamber, and it's supposed to give him unparalleled freedom and creativity? If you claim Kal is genetically superior to Zod, you're believing in eugenics just as hard as if you claim Zod is genetically superior to Kal. The point is, if Zod had fallen to earth as a baby and been raised by the Kents he'd be Superman. Maybe he'd have an intrinsically higher pain tolerance or something.
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Jun 25, 2013 22:02
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Baron Bifford posted:I think that by inserting the Codex into Kal's blood, he gave his son the entire gene pool, so Kal can be anything he wants. I don't think that's true. Kal was carrying the data required to kick the birthing matrix into full gear, but he didn't, like, have a supergenome that contained all the genetic powers of all Kryptonians. If he did, the implication would be that Kryptonian eugenics is actually a good idea, but that the Kryptonians themselves just did it poorly. If only they'd used eugenics to give all their kids a cocktail of all available genes, rather than role-specific genes, then their society would have been even better! In fact, the point is that the Kryptonian philosophy of genetic determinism and a better society through eugenics is a cargo cult - it doesn't actually accomplish anything but to indoctrinate most Kryptonian children with a load of stupid bullshit. Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Well, IMO I'm sure that Zod could listen to music or paint a picture - in fact I'm sure Zod had hobbies! - but he's never going to be painting a picture of the green meadows of Krypton or listening to pacifist folk music. He's a killing machine, he wants to kill Krypton's enemies in the same way as I want a glass of water after a hard day of work in the yard. A song about peace, love, and understanding would be as foreign to Zod as a song about being attracted to dirt and eating sand and rocks would be to you or me. But... that's wrong. I mean, I accept that you like it, but it's completely contradicted by the fact that Zor-El is capable of just as much violence as Zod is. Zod's actions are clearly a result of religious zeal and cultural indoctrination, not Evil Genes. I mean, what, did Zod just get crappy warrior genes and that's why he wasn't notably stronger, faster, or more skilled than Zor-El or Zod's lieutenants or Kal-el were?
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Jun 25, 2013 22:26
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computer parts posted:There's an easy out for that in that Jor-El is gifted with knowledge, and that includes (at least theoretical) application of martial arts and the like. Most of them probably don't utilize it but he's crazy enough that he probably tried to defy his role like he defied the role of the birthing matrix. Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Well I dunno, he was a general. Maybe the Kryptonian birthing matrix for generals deprioritizes hand-to-hand skill in favor of tactical planning. Or maybe the general was trained in the ossified fighting style of military Krypton and Jor-El the scientist used his super-science genetic skills and incredible brain power to develop a counter fighting style based on research into it's weaknesses and such. I mean, it's hard to say because we only spend a few minutes on Krypton and a lot of it is pretty vague. See, this is exactly the excuses that Zod must have been making to himself all the while he was getting his rear end handed to him by Zor. "What- how can...?! Of course! His scientist genes allowed him to learn combat skills, using science! Why didn't I see it before?! On new Krypton, I'll make sure that all soldiers also get scientist genes to make them even better fighters!" That explanation doesn't actually survive Occam's Razor, though. The simpler explanation is this: Kryptonian eugenics don't actually work any better than human eugenics. Zod was a religious fanatic incapable of seeing outside his own indoctrination. He didn't lose because his genes weren't good enough, he killed himself because he was wrongly obsessed with his genes. Edged Hymn posted:I think it's pretty safe to say genetics determine your skillset and vocation, and the cargo cult mentality takes over after birth to put any outliers in line. Like, I'm not even sure what you're trying to get at here ... nurture trumps nature or something? What moral point are you trying to make by asserting Zod could have grown up to appreciate a glass of fine scotch if he had just been raised by the Kents. ... The plain fact is, he wasn't, and trying to pain Superman's decision to kill a self-professed mass murderer as misguided or wrong is just about the silliest thing I've seen in CD. I don't think Superman was wrong to kill Zod. It was the right thing to do and his only defensible choice! But the point of the movie is for him to actually own that choice. If you ask Superman why Zod had to die, Superman should not tell you "Well, Zod's genes rendered Zod a nonperson, so pretty much it was okay to kill him."
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Jun 25, 2013 22:45
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Rhyno posted:Did you pay attention? In no way are we told that the codex actually augments Kal's abilities rather than just recordin information for eventual use by a birthing machine thing. Not even the eugenicist Kryptonians believe this - they're mad that Kal is withholding the codex but are never like "oh no that will make him more powerful/even more abominable".
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Jun 25, 2013 22:54
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BrianWilly posted:I will defend the film in that it showed Superman saving soldiers over and over and over again during the Smallville fight, so it's not like he just forgot to to ever save people for two hours. It's true that Man of Steel is sort of the antithesis of Avengers. The bad guys in Avengers are pretty much putties from Power Rangers and largely serve to flatter the heroes through total ineffectuality. The chief lasting consequence of the final brawl in Avengers is, literally, good publicity for the Avengers. In fact, that was Fury's whole plan! Meanwhile, MoS takes superpowered boss fights completely seriously and actually highlights their likely real world consequences.
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Jun 26, 2013 00:47
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If a movie's going to try to tell a grounded story about Superman that examines what the existence of Superman would mean for for the real world, it has to ask the question of whether or not the hero would ever kill, and then answer that question. To dance around it and constantly contrive things so that it never comes up would have undermined the movie. The Nolan Batman movies did the same thing! In both cases, the answer was "yes", but the way each character handled it was very different.
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Jun 26, 2013 03:19
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I wouldn't even say the neck snap establishes any special reason that Superman doesn't kill. After all, it's not like prior to killing Zod Superman was all excited about blasting bad guys to atoms but after the neck snap he was like, no, what have I done, this isn't what I wanted! Superman isn't more reluctant to kill prior to his fight with Zod than before - the reason he doesn't want to kill anyone is he was brought up right and is a good person and wants what's best for everybody, and that'd be true whether or not Zod ever arrived. If the Zod fight happened a second time and Superman somehow found himself in the exact same situation at the end of it I'm sure he'd finish Zod in the exact same way. The neck snap establishes whether Superman would kill. And the answer is, yes. Superman doesn't fetishize the act of killing itself, such that he prioritizes a personal clean slate over the lives of innocent bystanders. He doesn't have an infallible paladin code, he has realistic morals and priorities.
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Jun 26, 2013 03:31
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I liked both Max Landis videos I've seen and I thought he made some pretty good points in the last one. Notably, he had no problem with Superman killing Zod and used a really good metaphor for it that I already echoed earlier in the thread: Superman is like an adult among children. Zod is another adult. You wouldn't kill a child for doing something wrong, but you might kill another adult who's trying to kill a child. Landis complains that Superman didn't do enough to try to save people in the middle of his fights with the enemy Kryptonians, which was also my immediate impression, but on second thought the movie is actually pretty careful about that - it's Superman himself who gets thrown through buildings in Smallville, when Superman first fights Zod they're in an already destroyed and lifeless area and only end up back in a populated area once Zod has learned to fly, etc. I wish we had a longer shot of Superman trying to drag Zod away from Metropolis and I would've liked to see a bit where, I dunno, Superman scanned a building with x-ray vision really fast before smashing Zod into it, but on the whole Superman's conduct is completely defensible. After that Landis says he's not even complaining about Superman anymore but is just tired of superhero/action movies ending with the hero standing tall in a smoking crater. He's right that that's definitely become a trend, but Superman ended the last fight scene on his knees and sobbing in the middle of a smoking crater, and frankly if there's any hero vs. villain matchup whose "realistic" movie involves tremendous, staggering, apocalyptic property damage that rightly terrifies the populace, it's Superman vs. another Kryptonian. teagone posted:I feel like Snyder gives a pretty solid reason. But that's just me. Yeah, I saw that earlier. I don't think you're wrong, exactly - it's just that the impression I got was that while Superman's certainly learned how awful it is to take a life by the end of Man of Steel, it's not like he needed to learn that in order to avoid killing people in the future, and it's certainly not like, having learned that, he would refuse to take Zod's life in a do-over in order to preserve his beautiful soul or whatever. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 03:49 on Jun 26, 2013 |
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Jun 26, 2013 03:47
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Phylodox posted:Personally, I think the final Zod/Kal-El fight would have benefitted greatly from simply being smaller. Stopping the terraforming was the huge, bombastic show-stopping action set piece. The final battle should have been more personal: two exhausted gods at the very extremes of their endurance standing in the ruins of Metropolis grimly battling to see whose ideology is stronger. No flying, no super-punching-through-buildings. Then have Zod, facing defeat and the death of his dream, turn his fury towards Lois and the bedraggled survivors, standing huddled against the ruins of a huge skyscraper. Superman has him in a headlock, but Zod strains towards the cornered humans, dragging his enemy step by agonizing step behind him. Lois has nowhere to run, and Zod is reaching out, trying to crush her with his bare hands while Kal begs him to stop. Then, with no other recourse, Superman kills Zod and the movie progresses. It's really important that there's no turning point in the fight between Superman and Zod. In a lot of hero vs. villain fights the two are evenly matched or the villain is even winning until the hero finds their second wind or realizes the villain's weakness or otherwise begins fighting in such a way as to begin to inevitably win the fight. In this one, though, there was no sign that Superman ended up with Zod in a headlock rather than the other way around for any reason besides momentary luck. If Zod had been exhausted and visibly losing and just trying to lash out with what time he had left, then we should have expected Superman to just immobilize him or choke him out or something and then send him into space prison. It was important that Zod was only growing stronger as the fight progressed, visibly and rapidly achieving the same kind of enlightened, transhuman power that had previously given Superman the edge over the better-trained Kryptonian invaders. Also, what the hell, I don't want to see Superman and Doomsday standing in front of each other and slugging it out, I want to see flight. A movie with Zod in it that doesn't contain a confrontation between two Kryptonians at their peak (rather than one flying, quasi-magical Superman and a bunch of golden age strong/tough/jumping supermen) would feel like a cheat.
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Jun 26, 2013 18:55
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I think Zod wanted to terraform earth's atmosphere because it's earth's atmosphere that causes x-ray vision, flight, and the rest of superman's "magical" powers. Even in their space suits, Zod and his troops demonstrated super strength, speed, and resilience comparable to Superman's own, and when Superman was poisoned on Zod's command ship the Kryptonians said he'd become as weak as a human, not as weak as a normal Kryptonian. Incredible physical prowess is probably a perk that the Kryptonians are used to collecting whenever they spend enough time near a young star, but the actual difficulty of adapting to a hostile atmosphere (remember, baby Clark apparently had long-term breathing troubles) is something Zod didn't want to deal with.LeJackal posted:Yo, you keep clicking on the wrong forum. I think you mean to be posting somewhere in here: http://forums.somethingawful.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=103
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Jun 28, 2013 08:31
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Superman's main excuse for not saving more people is this: in Man of Steel, Kryptonians get superhuman power but not superhuman, uh, I guess perception or kinesthetic sense or similar. When a Kryptonian goes super fast, they don't enter bullet time, they just start going really fast - it's like, in the middle of a light jog, suddenly hopping onto a motorbike. When Kryptonians do partake of their godlike perception and mentality rather than just of their godlike physical capacity, they suffer sensory overload and can't really do much besides reel. This means that the Man of Steel Superman can't do tricks like, I don't know, zooming away from a conversation as Clark Kent to stop a mugging and then zooming back into the conversation so fast that the person he's talking to doesn't notice anything beyond a light breeze, or zip in and out of a crumbling building depositing each and every person in that building safely on the sidewalk, or whatever. MoS Kryptonians don't think or perceive things with any more speed or clarity than humans do. Of course, even if they could, it wouldn't have allowed Superman to cut down on casualties in a fistfight with Zod since, of course, Zod would be able to perpetrate an equal and opposite amount of bullet time mass slaughter, but it'd be far less interesting to watch.
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Jul 3, 2013 03:56
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LeJackal posted:If he did, he would have been helping people instead of making out with Lois Lane, while intimidating her with his racist ideology. That's stupid as hell, sorry. Superman's actions don't line up with those of a character who's on a deliberate PR mission - if you want an example of that, watch Avengers. Also, don't change my words when you quote me, and also, I don't remember accepting your character sheet...? We've got a lengthy submissions process here and frankly I don't think your roleplaying skills are enough to let you measure up.
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Jul 3, 2013 04:52
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Film Crit Hulk asked sixteen different people if they thought that Zod was "genetically predisposed" to protect Krypton based on his actions through the movie, was told told no sixteen different times, and immediately concluded that those sixteen people had all failed to pay attention properly since clearly eugenics is real and effective, right?
Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Jul 4, 2013 |
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Jul 4, 2013 02:07
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The best part was when he said that Superman was evil in precisely the same way that jocks in high school are evil. It's all been downhill from there IMO
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Jul 6, 2013 21:29
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Yeah, that's probably also why girls kiss jocks in high school.
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Jul 6, 2013 22:41
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I'm really worried that the next Man of Steel movie won't be Superman fighting the American military or similar.
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Jul 8, 2013 04:35
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Kal-El was in no way augmented or altered by all the genes he was carrying around. It was data to feed into the birthing matrix in order to rebuild the Kryptonian race, Superman himself wasn't a designer baby. It's important to understand that "on Krypton you're pretty much obliged to be what you were engineered to be because you'd suck at anything else" is completely and totally false. That's why we saw Jor-El fight Zod to a standstill. Eugenics is crap and Krypton's ordered society that supposedly slotted everyone into their optimal role based on the circumstances of their birth was bullshit.
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Jul 17, 2013 21:13
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Darko posted:Zod is a general, not infantry. Kal sucked against an actual fighter (who was weaker than him). Because Kal grew up on a farm and had never been in a fight in his life, not because he lacked Warrior Genes. Like, Jesus Christ. Edit: Also, the Kryptonians had a crazy feudal culture wherein people walked around wearing armor and chivalric crests everwhere and Zod carried out his coup by going places personally rather than hanging back and coordinating. On earth he went on about his rigorous training and self-perfection. He wasn't some kind of RTS-playing egghead. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Jul 18, 2013 |
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Jul 18, 2013 02:12
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If Kryptonian society failed because its members were bred a certain way, the implication is there that they could've been bred better and succeeded. If only Zod had had 15% more flexibility genes he could've worked peacefully with Superman to build a better tomorrow! Or if Krypton had been careful to give all of its children's Kal's DNA, or something. In reality, Kryptonian genetic determinism just parallels the logic that, on earth, turns Superman's childhood friend into the manager of an IHOP. What else could he have done, given his pedigree? Well, plenty, except for the stifling system of global domination he was unfortunate enough to grow up in. The film shows us clearly that Zod's breeding doesn't actually have any bearing on his abilities or motivations, and that his belief otherwise doesn't have any scientific basis.
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Jul 18, 2013 02:54
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People see Zod as Khan where he's superior at everything fighty because nerds for whatever reason love eugenics. Zod didn't lose at fights because he was genetically a general rather than genetically a soldier, he lost at fights because eugenics is bullshit. If you allow that the Kryptonians were correct when they crowed about their natural aptitudes then you're assuming that they made some kind of logistical or strategic error (they should've given everyone super genes, or they should've given everyone super genes but allowed kids to attempt aptitude exams to enter different careers, or whatever) rather than a fundamentally ideological one. Also, you end up bending over backwards to make lame excuses about Zor-El's science genes allowing him to scientifically learn kung fu, General Zod actually being a nerdy pencil-pusher, etc. Edit: Oh, yeah, and reading Superman's final victory as a result of Superman's superior genes.
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Jul 18, 2013 03:28
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Darko posted:Eugenics isn't TOTAL "bullshit" - it's just a guide and not a 100% writ law technique. You can theoretically breed things into people, giving them a high percentage leaning at it, and can kind of train them in tune with it, but it won't be 100% accurate, and some people will inevitably get screwed in it, not only due to their breeding, but also due to being outside of the goal and still being locked into something else. You'll end up with curves as a default - all of one focus will not be superior to all of another even when bred/trained for it because people aren't gods. Their breeding wasn't "too controlled". It didn't actually work. No doubt Faora had 6% higher pain tolerance or something, but the movie demonstrated for us repeatedly that the Kryptonians were deluded about their genetics, not controlled by them. Faora's rhetoric was nonsensical, Zod called natural childbirth "heresy", Zor-El was an action adventurer. Krypton didn't have two separate problems, it had one problem: a toxic ideology that led them to believe that there could ever be such a thing as a genetic caste system.
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Jul 18, 2013 05:47
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I don't think Superman has a no-kill rule. You only need one of those if you're tempted to kill in the first place and must find means of restraining yourself. Superman already doesn't want to kill anyone, he's never going to find himself advancing on a personal enemy, fists clenching and unclenching, and then redden in embarrassment as he notices the reminder string he's tied around his little finger.
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Jul 19, 2013 01:35
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I wouldn't call Man of Steel Superman "hosed up Superman", exactly, it's more like boy scout Superman in a hosed up world. Unlike Nolan Batman, Snyder Superman isn't obviously corrupt, hypocritical, or insane. His reaction to killing Zod wasn't a sign of deep-seated psychological damage, but in fact pretty much the reaction you'd hope someone has to taking a life. If, after snapping someone's neck, Superman squared his jaw and frowned sternly or unleashed a one-liner, then we'd be in deep poo poo.
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Jul 19, 2013 19:17
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It seems like you'd want to have Batman do all the stuff you'd expect Lex Luthor to do.
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Jul 21, 2013 00:12
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He is, though. Sufficient damage to their armor incapacitates them because it turns on their unmanageable super-senses. That's actually what happened.
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Jul 21, 2013 15:45
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Yeah, I don't really... want...? ...Batman... in my next Superman movie...? I loved Man of Steel and want as long a delay as possible before it's welded onto some tedious Continuity or Universe or whatever. Who knows, maybe it'll be great. It's definitely time for Superman to be confronted by human beings who question the need for a superman. But it'd take a lot for me to not just roll my eyes at Man of Steel's terrifying posthuman protagonist getting judo thrown or something.
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Jul 21, 2013 20:14
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LeJackal posted:It would be wonderfully satisfying to see the alien usurper rightly thrown into defeat by the very mean and women he longs to oppress. Hey, if that's what gets your motor running, sure, but not by kung fu or something.
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Jul 21, 2013 20:49
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The best Suuperman/Lex Luthor interaction is the one where Lex is like you might be able to see into the electromagnetic spectrum, Superman, but you can't see into the human soul! Then Superman looks at him and is like, you're wrong, Lex... I CAN see your soul.
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Jul 31, 2013 16:22
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LeJackal posted:So basically, Kal-El continuing his trend of self-appointed godhood. If he didn't believe human institutions were below him he would probably appoint himself Pope. drat his alien arrogance! It's not self-appointed godhood, he's just plainly stating facts. It says a lot more about Luther than it does about Superman that the sentence produces discomfort in the listener.
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Jul 31, 2013 18:09
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| # ¿ Apr 28, 2024 06:52 |
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LeJackal posted:That he can see a soul? The implicit underlying assumptions boggle the mind.
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Jul 31, 2013 18:30
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