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FuriousxGeorge posted:Wow. Sometimes cops really do deserve some leniency for when poo poo gets bad because someone is resisting, but he loving announces he is going to gently caress him up and then does so. If you can't get a conviction with that there is basically no evidence that would have done it. The jury gives you judgements reflecting on your population just as much as (or more than) on the accused...
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Jan 14, 2014 17:48
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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SedanChair posted:He was unkempt, so it's OK that he was killed. <---the mindset of millions of Americans Holy poo poo, gently caress America. 
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Jan 14, 2014 17:56
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B-but it's so hard being white! Waaaaaagh!
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DarkCrawler posted:Alright, so if I am homeless person or a black dude in U.S. there is what, a 20% chance that if someone brutally murders me they go free? Hah, I wish I still had your cock-eyed optimism. There was an infographic floating around, about white/black on black/white homicides, in states with SYG laws and without them -- but now I can't find it. Suffice to say your number is low.
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Jan 14, 2014 18:11
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BattleMaster posted:Is this a deliberate tactic or is it an accident due to there being multiple people being present who think that they're the one in charge of giving orders to the suspect? I work in Mental Health. When we confront someone who is agitated or aggressive, we let one person do the talking. No-one else is supposed to talk. Just let one person (usually the most senior staff present, or the most familiar with the patient/client) talk, and then you don't get conflicting orders and its less confusing - that and no-one talks over each other. But then again, we're trying to help people - we're not police. And we're Canadian.
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Jan 14, 2014 18:16
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Radish posted:Yeah I REALLY want to hear the jury interviewed on this one. I'm not surprised since even when these sorts of cases go to trial juries are absurdly lenient on cops, I assume due to years of propaganda about how they are heroes and that their jobs are "one of the deadliest in the world" when they are not but in this case the evidence is hilariously against them. I'm curious if this is authoritarian worship, some sort of homeless people don't have rights so why ruin the lives of people over one getting itself killed, or if there is some quirk of the justice system. The presumption that a cop is acting in good faith is really, really durable with a lot of people. Maybe even most people. Juries are lenient for approximately the same reason most people wouldn't accuse a heart surgeon who lost a patient of murder. Cops sometimes have to make tough calls so labeling them as criminals when a decision ends badly can seem like punishing somebody just for doing hard job.
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Jan 14, 2014 18:29
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FuriousxGeorge posted:Wow. Sometimes cops really do deserve some leniency for when poo poo gets bad because someone is resisting, but he loving announces he is going to gently caress him up and then does so. If you can't get a conviction with that there is basically no evidence that would have done it. I think you're overreacting, it was clearly a joke. You know those classic
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Jan 14, 2014 18:30
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AKA Pseudonym posted:The presumption that a cop is acting in good faith is really, really durable with a lot of people. Maybe even most people. Juries are lenient for approximately the same reason most people wouldn't accuse a heart surgeon who lost a patient of murder. Cops sometimes have to make tough calls so labeling them as criminals when a decision ends badly can seem like punishing somebody just for doing hard job. At this point it's statistically clear that civilians have a lot more to fear from cops than the other way around in addition to being more legally culpable if a tough call has to be made so it would be nice if that sort of notion would dissipate from the public consciousness but I know it won't until more white people keep getting killed by cops.
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Jan 14, 2014 18:34
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BottledBodhisvata posted:Maybe the cops just had a really good lawyer. As a matter of fact... http://www.ocweekly.com/2005-03-03/news/see-no-evil/ quote:Barnett is a trial lawyer who limps slightly and wears unremarkable suits. But if he worked in Texas, they'd call him something like "Racehorse" for his inspiring courtroom performances. His specialty is rare: Barnett can take seemingly incontestable videotaped evidence against his clients and convince jurors to doubt their own eyes. The guy also defended Gregory Haidl in the notorious gang rape case that ended up getting Sheriff Mike Carona in prison on corruption charges. Haidl got convicted, but only after a second trial; the first jury deadlocked.
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Jan 14, 2014 18:36
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I can't really understand it, is the man some kind of level 20 sorcerer or some poo poo? How do you present an actual video of some guys killing another guy and then convince a dozen people (even halfwitted ones) that the video is not, in fact, of some guys killing another guy?
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Jan 14, 2014 18:42
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I think it's more about convincing them the dead guy deserved it. Although when the guy in the video states he is gonna do what he did I think that there is more involved than just the lawyer's amazing abilities. I'd also like to know the jury makeups. I get the feeling that if you stack the jury with conservative, just world types you could convince them that a five year old deserved to get murdered as long as the person doing it is some sort of authority figure.
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Jan 14, 2014 18:48
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avisgoth posted:From the article: How about this: SF Chronicle posted:Cicinelli, 41, wiped tears from his eyes and Ramos, 39, put his head down and rubbed his temples before turning to his supporters and winking.
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Jan 14, 2014 19:06
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Slavvy posted:I can't really understand it, is the man some kind of level 20 sorcerer or some poo poo? How do you present an actual video of some guys killing another guy and then convince a dozen people (even halfwitted ones) that the video is not, in fact, of some guys killing another guy? The purpose of a lawyer in a case like this one is to cast doubt on the circumstances surrounding the video, rather than trying to deny the video itself. You saw his argument in the article: two noble police officers couldn't contain the monstrous strength of a diagnosed schizophrenic. To a jury of people who, in all likelihood, have grown up with a symbolic image of the police as law-abiding protectors, this argument is incredibly convincing, since it relieves the tension between the symbolic identity of the police and their videotaped actions.
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Jan 14, 2014 19:12
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Ahahahahaha, I kinda suspected the defense attorney had something to do with the acquital, but I didn't expect it to be a guy who actually got the Rodney King verdict. They really brought in a ringer for this one.
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Jan 14, 2014 19:19
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DarkCrawler posted:Alright, so if I am homeless person or a black dude in U.S. there is what, a 20% chance that if someone brutally murders me they go free? In Detroit, those odds jump to 90%. Only 10% of murder cases are investigated. You don't even have to go through the court process, you can just "enjoy the moment."
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Jan 14, 2014 19:20
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Six cops are acquitted from a murder caught on camera, voice, and admitted to by the officers themselves; another school shooting; and net neutrality laws were struck down. Here's my vision of America in the 2020's: Your kids have to go to school wearing Kevlar backpacks and vests, while back at home the police have just broken into your house, are holding you down with a gun to your head while they sit on your couch and use your credit card to pay the fees your ISP charges per YouTube video, on top of the fees they charge you just to be able to access YouTube. What a piece of poo poo country, with piece of poo poo citizens who would literally acquit murderers just because they have a badge. Does anyone have any suggestions on the easiest countries to immigrate to, legally or illegally?
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Jan 14, 2014 20:54
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redscare posted:As a matter of fact... Well I'll be damned. This guy is both very impressive and also thoroughly detestable. With the limp and the nickname it makes me feel like he just walked out of a TV show where he was the main villain. It makes me wish you could watch the courtroom video of him to see just how on Earth he manages to convince a jury to let a man they watch beat somebody to death go free.
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Jan 14, 2014 21:13
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Everyone deserves a defense and it's the prosecution's job to get the guys convicted so unless he did something shady I begrudgingly can't be that angry there. I'm more concerned with how twelve people are able to be convinced like that after seeing the video and how our society created them.
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Jan 14, 2014 21:16
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BottledBodhisvata posted:Well I'll be damned. This guy is both very impressive and also thoroughly detestable. With the limp and the nickname it makes me feel like he just walked out of a TV show where he was the main villain. It makes me wish you could watch the courtroom video of him to see just how on Earth he manages to convince a jury to let a man they watch beat somebody to death go free. Why is a competent defense attorney detestable? Would you rather he did a terrible job? To me, regardless of who they defend, a defense attorney that gets their client off is doing their job and morally too. It's only detestable when they don't try.
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Jan 14, 2014 21:19
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Thundercracker posted:Why is a competent defense attorney detestable? Would you rather he did a terrible job? I'm not a fan of when they put the victim on trial such as when rape victims are accused of wanting it or being sluts so how could they be raped but I think that sort of thing has been somewhat curtailed as long as he or she is still alive.
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Jan 14, 2014 21:21
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This is a quote from Kelly's dad: "When I arrived at the hospital to see him, I honestly thought that gang bangers had got a hold of him like the cowards sometimes do and just beat him with a baseball bat in the face," he said. "Immediately my thoughts were to get with Fullerton police ... and I didn't learn until a certain amount of hours later the truth. That put me in absolute shock." This is what he looked like in the hospital before he died. This is how his family last saw him. Now tell me how this was justified? It is graphic so view if you want. I think it needs to be seen. We can't ignore this poo poo. GRAPHIC: http://www.fullertonsfuture.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Kelly-Thomas-Police-Beating.jpg
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Jan 14, 2014 22:13
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Mayor_McCheese posted:This is a quote from Kelly's dad:  What's the point of beating someone into that state, even if you have a sadistic streak?
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Jan 14, 2014 22:26
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Radish posted:and how our society created them. "This victim wasn't a white person living in the suburbs" "You have to be tough on crime" "Being a cop is literally being a hero since it's the most dangerous job ever that's not war" Merge those three thoughts together.
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Jan 14, 2014 22:31
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blowfish posted:
Thinking that the individual you're beating isn't a real person, and instead vermin to be squashed. Really that's all I can come up with, and is how some people see the homeless.
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Jan 14, 2014 22:33
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That defense attorney is a proud and noble one in the tradition of John Adams. Other than the murdering police, there's no one to blame but the jury themselves, and the pool from which they were drawn. American citizens enable corruption and impunity with their incurious credulity and worship of authority. 
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Jan 14, 2014 22:36
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Slavvy posted:I can't really understand it, is the man some kind of level 20 sorcerer or some poo poo? How do you present an actual video of some guys killing another guy and then convince a dozen people (even halfwitted ones) that the video is not, in fact, of some guys killing another guy? It's not that hard. All you have to do is convince the jury that they don't want to believe the video is real, then introduce a bunch of doubts and alternative interpretations that almost sound reasonable if you don't think about them too hard. And since the defendants in this case were police, the first condition was already met before the trial even started, so the defense lawyer just had to come up with alternative scenarios for everything. Once you've done those two things, the human mind subconsciously takes care of most of the rationalization and reinterpretation necessary to turn "a brutal beating of a defenseless man" into "heroic cops struggling to subdue a monster who was grabbing for their weapons and whose drug/rage/insanity/adrenaline-fueled strength makes him impervious to pain and tasers while endowing him with the power to wrestle multiple cops at once". The human mind is really spectacular at reinterpreting facts and events to fit the worldview and beliefs we already hold, often without us even noticing we're doing it, and I'm sure the defense dragged up literally every single instance of drug use, violence, or encounters with police that the victim had ever had in order to reinforce the jurors' view of him as a violent bad man. Then he just had to trot out the usual police violence tropes like "he refused to obey police orders" and "he wasn't stopped by the taser" and "one of the cops thought he was grabbing for a weapon/a cop's weapon". For people already looking to blame the altercation, the intensity of the altercation, and the results of the incident all on the victim, that's all you need.
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Jan 14, 2014 22:53
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BattleMaster posted:Is this a deliberate tactic or is it an accident due to there being multiple people being present who think that they're the one in charge of giving orders to the suspect? Cops go through too much training. They should follow a standard procedure to arrest someone every time. I guess their standard procedure is to shoot first and ask questions never though. I wish cops would actually be willing to sacrifice themselves to protect the constitution.
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Jan 14, 2014 22:58
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Main Paineframe posted:It's not that hard. All you have to do is convince the jury that they don't want to believe the video is real, then introduce a bunch of doubts and alternative interpretations that almost sound reasonable if you don't think about them too hard. And since the defendants in this case were police, the first condition was already met before the trial even started, so the defense lawyer just had to come up with alternative scenarios for everything. Once you've done those two things, the human mind subconsciously takes care of most of the rationalization and reinterpretation necessary to turn "a brutal beating of a defenseless man" into "heroic cops struggling to subdue a monster who was grabbing for their weapons and whose drug/rage/insanity/adrenaline-fueled strength makes him impervious to pain and tasers while endowing him with the power to wrestle multiple cops at once". (Unfortunately)I think your statement is very real. We like things to 'make sense' and the brain will do what it takes to make things feel that way. It fills in the gaps.
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Jan 14, 2014 22:58
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effectual posted:Cops go through too much training. They should follow a standard procedure to arrest someone every time. I guess their standard procedure is to shoot first and ask questions never though. I wish cops would actually be willing to sacrifice themselves to protect the constitution. OFFICER SAFETY OFFICER SAFETY OFFICER SAFETY. Officer safety, your number one job is to get home to your wife and kids. Officer safety; if a perp is less than 21 feet away from you and has a weapon you're already dead. Officer safety. I ain't dying in no ghetto; officer safety, civilians just don't understand.
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Jan 14, 2014 23:03
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I'm shaking, I haven't been able to stop crying all day. Oh my god, America is dead. Today, we are all SedanChairs in outrage. gently caress the Free Mumia (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 14, 2014 23:20
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effectual posted:Cops go through too much training. They should follow a standard procedure to arrest someone every time. I guess their standard procedure is to shoot first and ask questions never though. I wish cops would actually be willing to sacrifice themselves to protect the constitution. SedanChair posted:OFFICER SAFETY OFFICER SAFETY OFFICER SAFETY. Officer safety, your number one job is to get home to your wife and kids. Officer safety; if a perp is less than 21 feet away from you and has a weapon you're already dead. Officer safety. I ain't dying in no ghetto; officer safety, civilians just don't understand.
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Jan 14, 2014 23:40
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Do they have sick bags in the jury benches? Because if I was there I probably would need one during the defense's justification of the actions in that video.
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Jan 14, 2014 23:55
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Basically this. You're not going to convince many people to be a martyr for $18,500 a year. Sure you are, look at all the other high-risk professions (or care professions) that get paid less than police officers.
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Jan 15, 2014 00:06
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Basically this. You're not going to convince many people to be a martyr for $18,500 a year. What cops make 18500 a year?
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Jan 15, 2014 00:14
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Lyesh posted:Sure you are, look at all the other high-risk professions (or care professions) that get paid less than police officers. Being black and/or female and/or gay doesn't get you a dime and you've got conservatives trying to murder your rear end to hell and back.
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Jan 15, 2014 00:14
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Xandu posted:What cops make 18500 a year? A Rent-A-Cop!  ...I'll show myself out.
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Jan 15, 2014 00:19
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effectual posted:Cops go through too much training. They should follow a standard procedure to arrest someone every time. I guess their standard procedure is to shoot first and ask questions never though. I wish cops would actually be willing to sacrifice themselves to protect the constitution.
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Jan 15, 2014 00:25
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Thundercracker posted:Why is a competent defense attorney detestable? Would you rather he did a terrible job? I get the idea that a defense attorney is morally obliged to defend anyone put in front of them regardless of apparent innocence or guilt, but that gets kind of shaky when your specialty is getting acquittals for cops who get filmed committing racially charged murders. It undermines the "I'm obliged to defend anyone" excuse when your clientele consists solely of white authority figures in positions of power.
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Jan 15, 2014 00:27
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Lyesh posted:Sure you are, look at all the other high-risk professions (or care professions) that get paid less than police officers. Xandu posted:What cops make 18500 a year? My point is that in many jurisdictions police are under-trained and underpaid. If you want thugs giving a man a club and paying him minimum wage is fine, but if you want someone who is willing to actively police and protect the community that doesn't cut it. Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Jan 15, 2014 |
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Jan 15, 2014 00:49
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Microcline posted:I get the idea that a defense attorney is morally obliged to defend anyone put in front of them regardless of apparent innocence or guilt, but that gets kind of shaky when your specialty is getting acquittals for cops who get filmed committing racially charged murders. It undermines the "I'm obliged to defend anyone" excuse when your clientele consists solely of white authority figures in positions of power. I mean, it's easy to get morally outraged at this person, but at the end of the day he's simply exploiting much deeper-seated issues present in the American psyche. We can easily reverse the situation to think about this: two men being videotaped murdering a police officer begging for his life would be lucky to avoid the death sentence, depending on the state they're in. Why are these two situations so dramatically different? Is this necessarily a good thing? What can be done to change it, if not?
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Jan 15, 2014 00:53
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Basically this. You're not going to convince many people to be a martyr for $18,500 a year. It varies greatly based on jurisdiction. http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/careers/uni_benefits.php
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