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jiffypop45 posted:
I didn't say a lion is closer to a person. You didn't understand what I said. I basically said the response from the exterior was pretty much the same. "No, you're not." If you really break it down, most furries aren't actually playing the role of that animal, they're dressing up more like cosplayers and playing the role of these weird human-animal hybrids. it's still garnering the response of "No, you're not." Whining about being negatively compared to furries is silly, since I'm saying they get basically the same response. For you, and other people, it really does seem like it's a psychological problem being manifested in behavior, and I'm not sure why it's surprising to you that people are going to be seriously weirded out and repelled by it when you admit that it was an unhealthy coping strategy. People see it and they go "That poo poo's hosed up" and the poo poo is, indeed, hosed up.
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Jun 16, 2015 14:57
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Camrath can you tell some more stories of weird poo poo you and your girlfriend have encountered?Vic posted:That's factually incorrect. Vast majority of people are in fact closer to a baby than to a lion, genetically speaking. lol
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Jun 16, 2015 15:00
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Obdicut posted:I didn't say a lion is closer to a person. You didn't understand what I said. I basically said the response from the exterior was pretty much the same. "No, you're not." If you really break it down, most furries aren't actually playing the role of that animal, they're dressing up more like cosplayers and playing the role of these weird human-animal hybrids. it's still garnering the response of "No, you're not." Whining about being negatively compared to furries is silly, since I'm saying they get basically the same response. I am no longer involved with the community in any sense and in truth it was a psychological problem in that it was a coping mechanism for me. While there probably does exist those who participate in a healthy way I can say that I get the feeling that more of them are in it for the same reason I was than not. I would argue that it would be easier for someone with a mental issue to pass in the furry community than society at large (in addition to what you stated about ABDL's likely having a high likelihood of psychological issues). The "I am autism" thing that the OP touched on extended to ABDL'S as well. Though that may have been an overlap with the furs. I don't want to make it out that I am white knighting or condoning some of the activities that happen in the group. Since I have separated from them in an effort to be more self relient. As some of them genuinely need professional help. However, I do think that generalizing them all as pedophiles who poo poo then cum in diapers is a bit much.
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Jun 16, 2015 15:30
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jiffypop45 posted:I would argue that it would be easier for someone with a mental issue to pass in the furry community than society at large (in addition to what you stated about ABDL's likely having a high likelihood of psychological issues). The "I am autism" thing that the OP touched on extended to ABDL'S as well. Though that may have been an overlap with the furs. Nobody argued against that, and that's been a main theme of the thread. quote:
I hear lolicon people saying the same thing. It is very difficult for an outsider to really understand or believe how acting like an infant when you are, in fact, a sexually mature person does not have a sexual component to it, even if it is, as I said, the abdication of sexuality. In fact, I don't even get how it's logically possible. You're combining adult sexuality with infantilism because you are an adult, and sexually mature, and dressing as a baby. In the same way, furries are combining adult sexuality with weird anthropomorphized animal stuff. That is weird, but the baby stuff is not only weirder, but represents an actual, horrible, real thing that happens to other human beings. At the very best, it's in incredibly poor taste. "I wear diapers but don't poo poo in them" is not really a hell of a lot of comfort. It leads to the "Why do you wear diapers then" question, which is not really answerable in any remotely sane way, other than "It makes me feel like a baby", which, again, is going to freak any remotely ordinary person out because the separation between adults and children is a very important thing, and that necessarily touches on sexuality.
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Jun 16, 2015 15:41
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many johnnys posted:Camrath can you tell some more stories of weird poo poo you and your girlfriend have encountered? For sure! Okay, this goes back to about 2000 or so, so very early in my days in furry. Back in those days, I used to spend a lot of time hanging out on furry IRC (then 'yiffnet', changed to 'furnet' about ten years or so back). I spent most of my time in the Londonfurs room, and into this comes a chap called Nekobe. Now, this is a guy who's become quite famous outside of the fandom for his sheer batshittery, but at the time I was completely oblivious. He was complaining about needing a place to stay, about how his housemates had thrown him out and the like. I chatted to him a bit, explained that I couldn't help out because I still lived with my parents but that I'd happily meet up for a drink or what have you if he found himself in London. At about this point I get three or four PMs from people saying 'Watch out- this guy is dangerous'. And so I ended the conversation shortly after. This apparently was all the trigger he needed. The next day, the phone rang. Our housekeeper picked up, and called me over, saying it was for me but she didn't know who it was. On the line was someone with a weird accent (Belgian, I later discovered) who seemed very upset with me because I'd not invited him to come and live with me and my parents. The conversation was short and terse, and I hung up shortly after. Except a few minutes later, when I had to make a call myself, I picked up the phone and the dude was somehow still on the line. I'm still not sure how this worked, but somehow even after I broke the connection he'd got the line to stay open, effectively blocking up our phones and treating anyone who picked up the handset to a torrent of abuse. This lasted for several hours. Over the next few days, he called more and more and more, sounding more and more insane each time. And it wasn't just me. He started calling my parents at work, and at one point my loving grandparents (who were naturally terrified). I still have /no/ idea how he got any of those numbers; the only number I ever let into the internet back then was my personal mobile, which he never called. I wish there was a dramatic conclusion to all of this, but in the end we just managed to get the number he was calling from and filed a police report. That was the end of it all, but I gathered from later research that I had a seriously lucky escape- google Nekobe and you'll get a prime slice of late-nineties insanity.
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Jun 16, 2015 15:50
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Camrath posted:google Nekobe and you'll get a prime slice of late-nineties insanity. Thanks, i found out some more information on the venerable source Wikifur—the free encyclopedia written by and for the Furry community
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Jun 16, 2015 16:17
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jiffypop45 posted:That is a somewhat long answer to the inquiry of "how does one use AB/DL activities to cope". Hopefully it answered your question. Thanks for sharing. It's very strange to me, I'll admit, but I find it very interesting to read about. I'm going to do my best not to sound like I'm judging you. I'll also admit that a while ago - about a decade, in fact - I had a friend who was kind of involved in the whole ABDL scene. In her case, though, it was a sexual thing. And that, for me, is as easy to understand as any other kink between consenting adults. As you might be seeing from other posters here, the whole thing almost seems to be easier to understand in the perspective of a sexual fetish than as a non-sexual coping mechanism. This whole area of... sociology? psychology? neuroscience? Internet culture? whatever you want to call it - like the people Camrath mentioned, I think, who have an extreme interest in certain unrealistic fetishes (eg: vore) but display little to no actual interest in sex - is really fascinating to me.
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Jun 16, 2015 16:20
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Obdicut posted:Nobody argued against that, and that's been a main theme of the thread. Maybe it's just because I've never had someone react that way that I told in person and otherwise only saw it from the inside out. I personally can't see why it's difficult to be able to separate the activity into a sexual and non sexual component that are mutually exclusive. Loli by nature is sexualized in my experience where as I don't feel as though ABDL is but again that's likely just my perspective from the inside out.
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Jun 16, 2015 16:27
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What many people are missing is that there's a line to be drawn. Dressing up as various mammalian carnivores is maybe a bit unconventional but otherwise socially acceptable. But gently caress if you put on a diaper you're a loving sexual weirdo in need of therapy. I mean there's paraphilia and paraphilia
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Jun 16, 2015 17:04
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It's amusing how most of Camrath's original post seems to fit neatly into the geek social fallacies - which seems to be still relevant over a decade later.quote:Through long hours of work with my therapist I started to realise that while initially the furry scene had helped me gain self-confidence and social capability, it was now holding me back badly- it was essentially a massively overextended form of adolescence. The infantile reaction as defense against stress is something built into people - think a wounded soldier crying for his mother. Just when it develops into an active habit is when it gets tricky. It's hard to say "no" because it's feeding good feelings into your emotions that are setup to comfort you in times of stress. So when you're in an environment that actively supports and encourages it with not a sliver of shame or doubt, then it gets into awkward territory as it goes from an emotional response into affirmative action that not only pleases you, but others. I've noticed a similar pattern in many fandoms I drifted through decades ago. What did seem to occur is a sliver of self-awareness that they are into stuff that has childish connotations, so they desperately need to make it feel "adult" - enter the sex and violence as a way to try and rationalize this. How many times have you heard the defense "but this is really grimdark" - it's a projection of the "hardships" of adult life placed upon some pop-culture entertainment you know you're going to get ridiculed about. One danger is when they can't pull away from the lure of escapism in order to cope with daily stress - and mainly it's from lack of experience in life. A good example is the effect of MMO's where effort + time = instant reward. Or within in a subculture as there's guaranteed support for an opinion; a safety net against the fear of being critiqued by outsiders. So on that note, Camrath (and co) how did you cope with a subculture that has a large degree of impossibility to it vs the reality of day to day life (which you might have touched on before). I've seen some furries in docos cope by wearing dog collars to work and others seem to carry totems to sort of reassure themselves - did you have any sort of security blanket on day to day activities. Where does that line between yearning for an impossible escapism vs reality get drawn? Did your therapy touch on this duality between yourself and your alter-ego?
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Jun 16, 2015 17:19
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WebDog posted:It's amusing how most of Camrath's original post seems to fit neatly into the geek social fallacies - which seems to be still relevant over a decade later. Yeah, I'm well aware of the GSF's- in fact, I think I mentioned them in my first post, if not one of the latter ones. They very VERY much apply to the furry fandom. Anyway, with regards your specific questions- I never wore any form of totem or other item. I just really wasn't that sort of fur, I guess. Aside from a few lion-king themed tshirts from the broadway shows, I don't think I ever really wore any sort of furry item outside of a furry context. Actually, I tell a lie- I do have a few t-shirts from cons that I wear on laundry day, but I don't ever go outside in them. In my case, the escapism was more just having a perceived 'safe space' away from all the normal social pressures of the world rather than any attempt to regress mentally/emotionally. And yeah, this duality has been explored in detail. I'd prefer not to go into that detail though, as A. it'd be incredibly boring to everyone and B. very intimately personal to me.
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Jun 16, 2015 19:44
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Obdicut posted:
I would quibble with you here. Almost everyone does. I am a different person at home from when I am at work, for example. The helpful, friendly, and never in a bad mood work persona I put on is no less of a "costume" than my D&D character. Different social situations require different roles to be played, and to pretend that this isn't the case, or that it is only ever done for aberrant or sexual reasons is quite disingenuous. Knowing which role is okay in which social situation is one of the foundations of society, and is the cause of many problems. If I acted to my parents the way I act at work, they'd think I was being weird. Likewise if I acted towards my boss the way I act towards my partner, or treated a customer the way I treat my friends. They aren't completely rigid (people have work friends they see outside of work, for example...), but they are there (...but how they act when you're out for drinks is probably different from how they are in the office). It is when those roles get badly mixed, or when the role gets completely subsumed by the person, that you begin to have problems. I can pretend to be an elf for a couple hours with my friends, sitting around a table, and breaking character constantly to laugh about politics. If I tried to be an elf at work, I'd get fired pretty quick. If I claimed I was an actual, real life elf, I'd be either crazy or a fraud. This is an explanation, of course, not an excuse. Even when pretending, you should be careful what you pretend to be.
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Jun 16, 2015 20:47
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Toph Bei Fong posted:I would quibble with you here. Almost everyone does. Yes, it is.
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Jun 16, 2015 21:12
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Obdicut posted:Yes, it is. How so?
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Jun 16, 2015 21:14
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Toph Bei Fong posted:How so? For gently caress's sake. At work we actually have a different role. It is not a role we're assuming for fun, or out of pathological reaction. If I'm tutoring a student, I really am their teacher, they really are my student. That relationship is a real one, it doesn't just exist because we're pretending it does. At work, we don't invent new characters out of whole cloth, and we especially don't claim to be a mythical species that doesn't exist. "Elf" doesn't have any real meaning. it is not a real thing. You are pretending, when you pretend to be an elf, to inhabit a different world. Your work 'persona' is a mostly a matter of adjusting your reactions to things, moderating emotions. You can 'roleplay' an elf that has character traits you don't have, has a physical being you don't have, has a history you don't have. Of course, you can go into work and lie and claim that you've got a past you don't and are American Indian and whatever, nothing's stopping you, but that's not the kind of 'roleplaying' you're talking about. This is something that's totally obvious to the average person. Playing a social role is nothing like pretending to be a completely different person, with a different past, a different ethnicity, different desires, wants, attributes, and a different physical being. You even somehow conflate treating different people differently into 'roleplaying'. That's not roleplaying, in the last. You're treating different people differently because you really, actually, literally have different roles towards each other. You're not playing them. The roles are real.
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Jun 16, 2015 21:22
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While we're deconstructing the mind of a furry, is Palilalia a common condition in the community?
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Jun 16, 2015 22:01
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Obdicut posted:You even somehow conflate treating different people differently into 'roleplaying'. That's not roleplaying, in the last. You're treating different people differently because you really, actually, literally have different roles towards each other. You're not playing them. The roles are real. Fair enough. Elves, of course, aren't real, but how do you feel about the folks who, for example, deliberately play up their (perceived) masculinity? Or who want to pretend that they're living in the wild west by keeping a gun on them at all times and fantasizing about charging in to stop a crime with it? They really are stupid men with guns in fedoras, even if their fantasy cowboys have no basis in historical reality, and their world views are utterly bizarre. How about someone who is a deeply committed Christian, and believes that their services as a Soldier of Christ inform their every action, regardless of where they are and what they are doing? I'd be hard pressed to claim that someone who went to mass every Sunday, drew strength and inspiration from the Bible, and tried to live by those principals wasn't a Christian, but then again we has to fire someone because they wouldn't stop proselytizing customers, and I certainly don't buy that if I don't convert soon, I'll end up in a lake of fire, or slaughtered in the grand battle between angels and demons when the apocalypse comes because I haven't been saved. The latter, especially, is not necessarily for fun nor a pathological reaction, and is often a matter of upbringing. These aren't much more of a fantasy than anything else mentioned in the thread, despite being "real".
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Jun 16, 2015 22:33
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Toph Bei Fong posted:
Yes, for the most part, they are. It's kind of weird to me that immediately after making the 'work' argument and having that shown to be false, you just pivot to a new one with no real acknowledgement. I have no interest in keeping busting down your bubbles about why these roles are different from "elf", but they really patently obviously are. If you want to stretch and stretch and say that people who believe that they are chosen by god are the same as people who believe they're elves, fine, I really don't give a poo poo. But your original claim was that literally every life-role we play is 'roleplaying' and now you picked up the goalposts and moved stadiums with them. That's not an honest way to have a conversation. If you're interested in a great work on the subject of identity and roles and why 'elf' is different from 'tough guy', read Goffman's The Presentation of Self in Everyday Life. It is old, but still great.
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Jun 16, 2015 22:38
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Camrath posted:The next day, the phone rang. Our housekeeper picked up, I'm stuck on this. Coming from the kind of class background where you have at least one servant, how do you become so socially desperate as to become a furry?
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Jun 16, 2015 22:48
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Obdicut posted:Yes, for the most part, they are. I said fair enough and was prepared to drop it. We seem to differ over whether "roleplaying" and "playing a role" are the same thing. I'm arguing that we all do it to some extent, and that it is merely the depth to which we do that causes the problem. Have you read much about the "smile mask syndrome" that's becoming a big problem in Japan and Korea? Putting on false selves at work is absolutely a problem. I then asked a separate, but related question, trying to figure out exactly where you define the borders of fantasy and reality when it comes to self-concept, because I'm trying to understand your position better. We seem to differ on the degree to which a person is subsumed in playing a part, and how that checks out vs. the "real" person. I'm not sure what you think you've "proven" here. Dude believes he's a cowboy and need to prep for approaching government takeover = checks out Dude really believes he's the servant of a mystical being = checks out Dude really believes he's a squirrel = Bull poo poo Something doesn't quite sit right about that. I'll check that book out, thanks for the recommendation.
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Jun 16, 2015 23:32
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Toph Bei Fong posted:I said fair enough and was prepared to drop it. We seem to differ over whether "roleplaying" and "playing a role" are the same thing. That's because they aren't. And you didn't drop it, you just pivoted, as I said, moving the goalposts. quote:I'm arguing that we all do it to some extent, and that it is merely the depth to which we do that causes the problem. Have you read much about the "smile mask syndrome" that's becoming a big problem in Japan and Korea? Putting on false selves at work is absolutely a problem. And it's completely different than role playing an elf in a fantasy game. Having a stiff upper lip, acting macho because you grew up in a macho culture--these are real problems with identity, but they in no way, at all, in any way, shape, or form, resemble you role playing an elf in a fantasy game. At all. Conflating the two is absurd. If you act a certain way out of cultural expectation, that is nothing at all like you creating a character who you try to roleplay faithfully in a game. There isn't even a single point of connection. quote:I then asked a separate, but related question, trying to figure out exactly where you define the borders of fantasy and reality when it comes to self-concept, because I'm trying to understand your position better. We seem to differ on the degree to which a person is subsumed in playing a part, and how that checks out vs. the "real" person. I'm not sure what you think you've "proven" here. It doesn't make sense to talk about the 'person' being subsumed in the 'part'. I don't know what you mean by the 'real' person. What I've proven--actually, what is just obvious but I spelled out for you--is that there is a difference between an actual role--teacher/student, father/son, spouse/spouse, friend/friend--and a roleplay role like roleplaying an elf in a game, or being a furry--and roleplaying the elf and being a furry are also very obviously different. quote:Dude believes he's a cowboy and need to prep for approaching government takeover = checks out quote:Dude really believes he's the servant of a mystical being = checks out quote:Dude really believes he's a squirrel = Bull poo poo Again, they don't actually believe they're squirrels--the Furry 'animals' don't have anything to do with what actual animals are like. But translating what you said to something real "Dude roleplays as an anthropomorphized animal", then that is similar to role playing an elf in a game. If the furry is actually far gone enough to think that they really have non-human attributes that are represented by what they're pretending to be, that's a lot different since you don't think you actually have the attributes of an elf because you know they're fictional. But most furries, I think, know that they're engaging in this anthropomorphization and are basically LARPing as these furry beings. If you LARped as that elf it'd be a direct correlation. There's probably a smooshy line between those two groups and not some sharp dividing line. quote:Something doesn't quite sit right about that. You appear to not actually be following the conversation. To sum up: Real roles exist, and when we 'play' them it's not 'play' in the same way as you roleplaying an elf, because the roles actually exist. They actually describe a real relationship between human beings. Some furries may be roleplaying in a similar way to you playing an elf, others are not. quote:I'll check that book out, thanks for the recommendation. You're welcome.
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Jun 16, 2015 23:53
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we're here to hear about furries not bullshit semantics. Dear OP, tell me if you would, what would your advice be to someone who's at risk of joining the furry fandom? What kind of thing should they do instead?
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Jun 16, 2015 23:59
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Hedrigall posted:You just brought phylogenetics to a babyfur fight. I research evolutionary biology and I never anticipated reading the word "phylogenetics" in this context. Thank you.
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Jun 17, 2015 01:14
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TunaSpleen posted:I research evolutionary biology and I never anticipated reading the word "phylogenetics" in this context. Thank you.  Evolutionary biologist here too!
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Jun 17, 2015 02:14
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Camrath posted:For sure! Please tell more cool, funny, and/or weird stories 
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Jun 17, 2015 03:03
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I would like to hear more about how roleplaying an elven wizard casting fireballs at a dragon to steal the Staff of Sorrow from him so you can defeat the evil Lord Gombor and save the kingdom, is the same as being polite to people at work.
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Jun 17, 2015 08:15
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They're both really hard to get comfortable with.
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Jun 17, 2015 10:17
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What is the future of the furry fandom? Are they changing their behavior or attitudes at all? Some of other subcultures of the internet that emerged later than furries seem to be gaining steam thanks to the anonymity and connectivity granted by the internet - transgender people and people with non-binary genders and sexual identites, for example - but furries are different due to their history. They tried to go mainstream too early, the mainstream world fought back, and they responded by cocooning themselves in an insane echo chamber. No other internet subculture that I know of is such a prison to its members (except loveshies/wizards/incels, but that's a whole other kettle of poo poo). Will furries in general ever improve, or is the furry fandom broken forever?
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Jun 17, 2015 10:24
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Bitter Mushroom posted:we're here to hear about furries not bullshit semantics. Dear OP, tell me if you would, what would your advice be to someone who's at risk of joining the furry fandom? What kind of thing should they do instead? Already answered this on the first page, I believe. many johnnys posted:Please tell more cool, funny, and/or weird stories I'm meeting with a client shortly. Afterwards, story-time. BiggerJ posted:What is the future of the furry fandom? Are they changing their behavior or attitudes at all? Some of other subcultures of the internet that emerged later than furries seem to be gaining steam thanks to the anonymity and connectivity granted by the internet - transgender people and people with non-binary genders and sexual identites, for example - but furries are different due to their history. They tried to go mainstream too early, the mainstream world fought back, and they responded by cocooning themselves in an insane echo chamber. No other internet subculture that I know of is such a prison to its members (except loveshies/wizards/incels, but that's a whole other kettle of poo poo). Will furries in general ever improve, or is the furry fandom broken forever? This is an interesting question. Honestly, I don't know. From the outside view, the fandom seems to be becoming more.. sanitised I guess? Particularly in reference to conventions and meets. But that's only an outside view; all the perversion and dark poo poo is just more underground now. Bear in mind the rise of furry almost exactly paralleled the rise of the internet, so it could be that the initial 'steam gaining' happened in say, the 90s which to most people posting here is probably fairly ancient history. Nonetheless, the fandom is still growing consistently year on year- attendance rates at cons and meets are still rising rapidly. I think it's likely that furry IS going to become a lot more mainstream. For example, that movie 'Zootopia' that I posted a trailer for earlier is likely to be absolutely massive, and in 90 seconds basically provides a perfect explanation of what at its core (shorn of the fandom itself and all the baggage that it carries) furry /is/. Likewise, I found out last week that the Londonfurs will be officially marching in London Pride this year- again, heading strongly towards the mainstream (what I think about that is a whole different kettle of fish that I won't go into at this stage).
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Jun 17, 2015 13:14
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For any curious about Nekobe, the F Plus Podcast did a reading about him in their 100th episode. It's still one of my favorite readings they've ever done.
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Jun 17, 2015 15:31
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Was there an strong element of 'I'm one of the normal ones' in the community? You know, among the furries who were more or less properly socialised but nonetheless drawn to the animal stuff for whatever reason? One thing I've noticed, reading the video game forum here, is that people are very quick to throw terms like 'nerd' and 'sperg' around despite doing pretty much the same thing that they're disparaging. Also, in that gbs thread where you first surfaced, there was another furry (something skunk-themed iirc) who maintained that s/he only went to conventions in order to laugh at the freaks in attendance. Was this a common thing with the furries on your scene, or were people generally aware that they were all in the same freaky boat at the end of the day? This applies to the diaper-person as well. And the LARP people. And the tabletop gaming folks, and the anime fans and so on and on. Faux-Ass Nonsense fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Jun 17, 2015 |
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Jun 17, 2015 18:25
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Faux-rear end Nonsense posted:Was there an strong element of 'I'm one of the normal ones' in the community? The big risk is that when you just interact with those people you develop little cliques and BMOCs that throw shitfits when someone else involved becomes more popular/powerful.
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Jun 17, 2015 18:40
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Faux-rear end Nonsense posted:Was there an strong element of 'I'm one of the normal ones' in the community? You know, among the furries who were more or less properly socialised but nonetheless drawn to the animal stuff for whatever reason? One thing I've noticed, reading the video game forum here, is that people are very quick to throw terms like 'nerd' and 'sperg' around despite doing pretty much the same thing that they're disparaging. Also, in that gbs thread where you first surfaced, there was another furry (something skunk-themed iirc) who maintained that s/he only went to conventions in order to laugh at the freaks in attendance. Was this a common thing with the furries on your scene, or were people generally aware that they were all in the same freaky boat at the end of the day? Complicate one this. I'll admit, anyone who claims that they /only/ attend furry events (or indeed any other event) to laugh at the other people there is lying- whether to everyone else or just to themselves. There's a huge tendency for goons to try and make out that they're above everything, and nine times out of ten this just isn't true. Then again the more together people in the fandom tended not to be the most overtly furry at first glance, and were self-aware enough to laugh at both the fandom and themselves for being involved in it. With regard LARP, at least in the systems I play there's not the whole subculture thing going on- it's very much something people DO as opposed to something they ARE, if you see what I mean. People with lovely kit or attitude will probably be sneered at, but that's as far as it goes. We all know it's a stereotypical 'nerdy' hobby, but at the same time the majority of larpers in the Lorien Truet at least are mature adults with jobs and lives outside the field and don't really have anything to prove. I guess this would be different in for example the vampire/world of darknes LARP scene as that's far more of a regular event, as well as having significant 'downtime' role play (ie outside of organised events).
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Jun 17, 2015 19:40
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I went to a Anime convention recently where these rungs were very apparent. In addition to furries there were also those into ball jointed dolls (BJD's). If you're not familiar with them they are extremely realistic dolls slightly larger than a barbie that individuals spend thousands of dollars on painting, customizing, and similar things. There were several panels for these that I presume the individuals where at the con for exclusively. Everyone always jokes and makes fun of these people because they'll walk around with forlorn expressions on their faces with their dolls perched in the crook of their arm. These people were considered the "lowest" at the convention. One rung up from these people were the furries. Due to my experiences with creepy babyfurs talking about "pawing" in their diapers (a euphemism for masturbation) I am especially unsettled by flesh and blood furries in fursuits. They are generally fine though and I didn't actually talk to any of them as they kept to their own panels and self. Considering it was an anime convention there were plenty of people there for that too. However I didn't really see any obvious lines of social pecking order. There may have been some but as a whole it was pretty accepting and non judgemental. (Hopefully that doesn't sound like one of the aforementioned geek fallacies as I genuinely believe it to have been a very validating experience personally considering I was doing a crossplay). In terms of ABDL culture it's fairly heavily self policed as (and obviously evidenced by this topic) the community is aware of how it appears to those on the outside. Anyone that comes off remotely displaying characteristics of a pedophile is banned/removed/ostracized. I can think of one incident in the past 2 or 3 years where a site admin had an inappropriate relationship with a teenage user. In addition to everyone being involved getting banned they made the heavy handed decision to make the site 18+ only to prevent it from never happening again. This created a pretty hard schism with the group but, highlights how hard the group tries to keep those sort of people out and how badly they are viewed. Generally the babyfurs aren't treated much differently and as a whole the group is pretty accepting. When I say "AB/DL community" it's interesting to note that perhaps like other groups this encompasses a fairly diverse group of individuals. So before trying to draw a hierarchy I'll point out some of the groups involved, offhand the ones I am familiar with: AB: Adult Baby, these are the ones who enjoy regression and acts associated with taking on the role of a small child DL: Diaper Lover, these are the ones who have a diaper fetish or for whatever reason just enjoy wearing diapers (I never really understood these people) IC: Incontinent, I don't know why but there's actually a bit of an overlap with the incontinent community and ABDL perhaps once they realized they were going to be wearing diapers for an extended period of their life embraced the idea. I don't know the connection personally LG: Little girl/sissy, these are those that incorporate gender play into their ABDL activities. Either by wearing clothes designed for little girls or pretending to be an LG, there is some overlap here with the trans community. Babyfurs: this has been discussed before but basically furries who are also ABDL'S and incorporate that into whatever form their ABDL takes. I don't actually know if there is a specific term for it but there are also in the community that exercise it exclusively as a sexual/bdsm practice. This typically involves forced diapering, bondage, forced feminization, strict disciplinarian role play as a mother/teacher/whatever. In terms of the actual hierarchy I think it's interesting that there isn't so much a vertical as a horizontal spectrum hierarchy. Again the community knows what others see it as, knows what kind of associations people tend to make, and do everything they can to prevent it from becoming worse. To that end it's people on the extremes that are looked down on as they are seen as a threat to the already endangered image. People that (like I previously mentioned) dig in trash for diapers, or that try and make themselves incontinent permanently as adults via retraining themselves to wet themselves, people who redo their entire houses just to have a full time adult baby playspace, people who go out with their paci's (though if you're charming you might could claim to be a raver). If you are somewhere in the middle and keep quiet about it you are considered "okay" but anyone that outs themselves in public or risks damaging whatever fragile public opinion the group may have are the ones looked down on very harshly. I think this contrasts a lot with other fandoms as people who have the disposable income to create elaborate fursuits, enjoy walls full of 40k models, have ample time to watch all the latest anime, anything like that I feel engender jealousy and envy in others and not disgust and risk being ostracized. I may be projecting somewhat as my experience is that of someone who no longer participates or has a desire to in the community.
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Jun 17, 2015 20:40
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You mentioned having a traumatic injury--do you think that impacted you staying in the furry community for so long? What I mean is, do you feel missing out on socializing for a period of time/having mental health issues kept you involved longer than if you had been physically healthy? I'm curious if the major appeal of furry-dom is the everything goes mentality, so people may not feel the need to seek out treatment for serious issues that otherwise may impact their quality of life. (Not meaning you specifically, Camrath, but a former floormate of mine was very into furry because it seemed a place where her terrible social skills + obesity + inability to dress herself + chronic skin infections had no bearing on her ability to be social, whereas that combination pretty much blocked her from a lot of uni activity). As a leader in the community did you ever pull someone aside and suggest they get professionally sorted out, or no?
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Jun 17, 2015 21:34
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Camrath, thanks for this thread, it's a really interesting read and it's good to know that you're in a better place. If it's not too personal a question, I'd like to know how your therapist reacted when you told them you were a furry. Did they already know about furries, or did you have to explain it? It seems like furries are way more publicly known about than other internet subcultures, but there's still tons of people that know nothing about that kind of thing. I get it if you don't want to answer, I was just wondering how it worked if your therapist didn't know about the fandom--being a "normal" person and having to counsel someone from such a niche and insular community seems like a challenge. This might have been answered already, but what were some of the weirder and less common things people dressed up as? Did you see any bugs, reptiles, fish? Did you ever see anyone with a "gross" fursona, like a naked mole rat or something weird? I'd also like to hear more crazy stories when you have time, specifically about drama. Furries seem to have a reputation as drama whores but I've never really known why
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Jun 17, 2015 21:48
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FearCotton posted:You mentioned having a traumatic injury--do you think that impacted you staying in the furry community for so long? What I mean is, do you feel missing out on socializing for a period of time/having mental health issues kept you involved longer than if you had been physically healthy? I'm curious if the major appeal of furry-dom is the everything goes mentality, so people may not feel the need to seek out treatment for serious issues that otherwise may impact their quality of life. (Not meaning you specifically, Camrath, but a former floormate of mine was very into furry because it seemed a place where her terrible social skills + obesity + inability to dress herself + chronic skin infections had no bearing on her ability to be social, whereas that combination pretty much blocked her from a lot of uni activity). As a leader in the community did you ever pull someone aside and suggest they get professionally sorted out, or no? To be honest, that's a question I've asked myself a great many times. My injury mostly manifested as depression and for a couple of years very severe mood swings and anger issues; these did impact my social experience, but when it was at its worst I was also away from furry for the most part due to location (it was when I was in Aberdeen). As for your final question, yes- several times. The worst was not actually in London, but further north. When I was running the Birmingham meets I had one occasion where I was out of the pub having a spliff when one of the meet attendees came out and sat on the wall of the bridge near where we were at (if you know Birmingham, we used to use the Flapper, which is surrounded by a lot of canals in 30' high cuttings). Then all of a sudden he stood up and stepped over the railing, preparing to jump. I ran across to him and physically pulled him back over the edge, pinning him to the ground because he was still trying to get away and jump. Might have killed him, might not but I don't gently caress around when someone is trying to jump off a loving bridge. The dude had a lot of poo poo going on in his life coupled with furry relationship drama. I sat him down for a good long talk and basically ordered him to get help; I banned him from the meets until he was getting professional assistance for his issues. From what I last heard on the grapevine he's doing a lot better now. (He also contacted me a few months later to thank me effusively for it, so I guess that's as close to a happy ending as one gets in these situations) Captain Candyblood posted:Camrath, thanks for this thread, it's a really interesting read and it's good to know that you're in a better place. If it's not too personal a question, I'd like to know how your therapist reacted when you told them you were a furry. Did they already know about furries, or did you have to explain it? It seems like furries are way more publicly known about than other internet subcultures, but there's still tons of people that know nothing about that kind of thing. I get it if you don't want to answer, I was just wondering how it worked if your therapist didn't know about the fandom--being a "normal" person and having to counsel someone from such a niche and insular community seems like a challenge. I'd rather not go into too much detail about my therapy, but no, my therapist didn't know what furry was until I explained it. I'm not sure if it was his accent or a genuine misunderstanding, but he called them 'fairies' for a long time :p I've answered it before, but hey.. The director of Anthrocon has a cockroach 'sona, I knew a girl who had a dragonfly suit, I previously mentioned the scat-fetishist frog fur who had a vinyl frog suit, and I knew a shark transwoman towards the end of my time in the fandom. Who was also completely loving batshit insane and a real pain in the arse to deal with. I'll type up more stories tomorrow. Apologies, but today turned out busier than expected! Camrath fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Jun 17, 2015 |
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Jun 17, 2015 21:59
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I know the thread has moved on a bit from the AB/DL conversation, but I've got something that I think might be very useful for people having difficulty understanding how and why that works (or doesn't work) as a coping mechanism for someone who is genuinely non-sexual about it. (For reference, I am emphatically not an AB/DL or furry, or involved with either community in any way at all. However, I did have some pretty extensive childhood trauma [molestation by a family member, emotional abuse from my parents, untreated mental illness from a young age, etc] and have been dealing with some age regression issues/desires lately. I'll also freely admit that I bought a pacifier and have been sucking on it occasionally in the privacy of my own home. It is 100% non-sexual - it's just a coping mechanism for the upsetting poo poo going on in my brain, and it's certainly better for me than all the cigarettes I'd be smoking or food I'd be eating when I've got it in my mouth instead, lol.) Anyway, I came across this blog the other day when I was googling for stuff on age regression & childhood trauma, & I think this post specifically might be useful: https://lolasrecoverysite.wordpress.com/2013/01/05/psychological-regression-the-perils-and-the-power/
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Jun 18, 2015 01:51
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Faux-rear end Nonsense posted:Was there an strong element of 'I'm one of the normal ones' in the community? You know, among the furries who were more or less properly socialised but nonetheless drawn to the animal stuff for whatever reason? One thing I've noticed, reading the video game forum here, is that people are very quick to throw terms like 'nerd' and 'sperg' around despite doing pretty much the same thing that they're disparaging. Also, in that gbs thread where you first surfaced, there was another furry (something skunk-themed iirc) who maintained that s/he only went to conventions in order to laugh at the freaks in attendance. Was this a common thing with the furries on your scene, or were people generally aware that they were all in the same freaky boat at the end of the day? 
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Jun 18, 2015 06:20
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Camrath posted:Bear in mind the rise of furry almost exactly paralleled the rise of the internet, so it could be that the initial 'steam gaining' happened in say, the 90s which to most people posting here is probably fairly ancient history. I think you misunderstood part of what I wrote. When I said 'gaining steam', I was referring to the more recent steam-gaining of internet subcultures such as transgendered people and people with non-binary genders and sexualities. My point was that in contrast, the furries gained steam too early and too fast, got snapped at by mainstream society, and responded by becoming the insular nightmare we know today.
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Jun 18, 2015 07:54
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