The Flash Season 2 - " Mom, Dad... I'm Jay."

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > The Flash Season 2 - " Mom, Dad... I'm Jay."

Two Tone Shoes: Jan 2, 2009; All that's missing is the ring.

Jay Garrick's voice is literally exactly how I imagined it since I was a kid so that's cool.

# ¿ Oct 7, 2015 02:50

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# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 06:35

Two Tone Shoes: Jan 2, 2009; All that's missing is the ring.

So did they just kind of gloss over Team Flash straight up killing a dude? No one seemed to be bothered by it.

# ¿ Oct 7, 2015 21:24

Two Tone Shoes: Jan 2, 2009; All that's missing is the ring.

lotus circle posted:

Teddy Sears did a news interview that sheds some light on Jay's situation, spoilers obviously. If you don't wanna watch here's the lowdown:

Zoom stole Jay Garrick's speed, making him unable to run fast. This happened right around the time of the singularity opening on the Earth-2 side, which caused Jay (and his helmet) to get sucked in.

Oh, so it's a Savitar-esque storyline more than a Zoom storyline. That's actually great because Savitar is secretly the best evil speedster ever that no one knows about.

# ¿ Oct 11, 2015 03:38

Two Tone Shoes: Jan 2, 2009; All that's missing is the ring.

I'm really not liking Barry just merking dudes every episode. I understand I'm a giant comics baby but it still bothers me, especially after the hoops they jumped through in season 1 to imprison dudes instead of killing them. Barry knows these dudes are being told to kill him under duress from a super powerful madman and the complete lack of hesitation and, hell, literally no remorse really bugs me.

Chances are they're gonna be not dead later but I'm pretty sure Barry and co don't know that (kind of like how we don't know it yet). They've spent so much time on Barry being dour and hesitant, this is actually a thing to be dour and hesitant about.

Two Tone Shoes fucked around with this message at 13:07 on Oct 14, 2015

# ¿ Oct 14, 2015 13:04

Two Tone Shoes: Jan 2, 2009; All that's missing is the ring.

Aphrodite posted:

But then why send others after Barry? If they do kill him he doesn't get that speed.

If this is a Savitar situation then killing him stops him from drawing on the Speed Force, leaving more Speed Force for Zoom.

# ¿ Oct 15, 2015 00:20

Two Tone Shoes: Jan 2, 2009; All that's missing is the ring.

Error 404 posted:

I'm sure it was really dumb in the comics, but your cliff's notes version here sounds like it could be pretty drat cool.

It was actually a really really great comic and maybe the best take on "Evil Speedster" ever (imo). He was only in the one story so he's pretty much self contained and a one off awesome villain with a cool backstory and motives.

Drifter posted:

While that's cool and all, if you're stuck on a planetary body and not cruising through space a la Silver Surfer or something, I don't think it matters whether you can go 1/2 light speed or 10x light speed.

The Speed Force is actually about more than running fast, that's kind of a big deal in Savitar's arc, showing Wally how stupid he is and how little he understands what the Speed Force is. It's a lot bigger and more comics crazy than that. It connects to all knowledge in the multiverse (it is literally the embodiment of time, past, present, and future). Savitar's goal was eliminating other Speedsters, taking their power, and taking control of the Speed Force through this powerup to become a god.

Two Tone Shoes fucked around with this message at 12:34 on Oct 15, 2015

# ¿ Oct 15, 2015 12:29

Two Tone Shoes: Jan 2, 2009; All that's missing is the ring.

Aphrodite posted:

Since then they've retconned that Barry Allen fuels the Speed Force (and always has) so Savitar probably wouldn't work the same way today.

(Plus Barry killed him anyway.)

Since then they've double retconned that so that Barry no longer fuels the speed force. That was a dumb decision that lasted all of a year before they threw the idea away in the reboot. Probably because it made no sense and was awful.

# ¿ Oct 15, 2015 14:31

Two Tone Shoes: Jan 2, 2009; All that's missing is the ring.

Guy A. Person posted:

Creating the speed force was Mark Waid's way of moving Wally out of Barry's shadow and giving him something special to make him the "most important" Flash, so of course Geoff Johns needed to top that by making Barry the entire source of the speed force.

Creating the Speed Force was Waid's excuse to bring Jay, Jesse, Johnny, and Max into the book because he was a huge nerd for classic characters and wanted to make a speedster family all connected by their mutually similar powers having a single source. Everything else after that was just a happy and dorky incidental followup. He's often said if he knew the Speed Force was gonna get so big and mystical and crazy he would've given it a way better name. He moved Wally out of Barry's shadow in The Return of Barry Allen, which happened before the words "Speed Force" were ever uttered together.

I can't speak much for Geoff Johns, but if that was his intention he nailed it. I can't count the number of times I've seen some review or article or video or whatever talk about how Barry's so cool because he IS the Speed Force and blah blah. But gosh it was just the absolute worst retcon.

Hazo posted:

Wally did this in an episode of Teen Titans.

edit: actually I think he brought back a croissant or something just to mock somebody he was talking to but it owned really hard because the whole episode was just him being a huge rear end in a top hat to the bad guy team

Wally as a kid's whole schitck is basically "Kind of a jerk because of his stupid powers but well meaning and funny about it." It'd be nice if they kept some of that in the character instead of what interviews have suggested.

Two Tone Shoes fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Oct 15, 2015

# ¿ Oct 15, 2015 16:19

Two Tone Shoes: Jan 2, 2009; All that's missing is the ring.

Guy A. Person posted:

The Return of Barry Allen is where he brought back Jay, Johnny and Max, and there was the whole scene where Wally is trying learn Johnny's formula while Max is talking about the "zen of speed", which I think was the beginning hints of the SF or at least the shared origin of all of their powers (for example, Max mocks Johnny for using his formula, dismissing it as the source of his powers and calling it a "mental trick" that works for him).

I do agree with you, he also wanted to tie everyone's powers to a single source. But the same arc where he named the Speed Force is where he also had Wally link into it and give him a bunch of abilities that specifically set him above and apart from all the speedsters he had brought in, and by that extension Barry himself. I still argue he did this as a way to make Wally a more distinctive and mythologically important Flash, since otherwise he was still wearing the same costume and doing the same stuff as Barry.

Another - worse - example of Waid trying to set Wally apart from Barry was his weird refusal to use basically any of the Rogues. Even when he brought them back he almost immediately sidelined them and tried to replace them with the super lame Replicant. The best thing Johns ever did was bring them back and make them more distinct and cool than they had ever been before.

Well yeah, he brought them in but he didn't really connect them aside from "Jay's an old friend and asked a favor." Terminal Velocity and the lead in issues were the guts and foundation of The Speed Force and the Flash family (brought in Jesse and Bart on top of everything). I'll grant there were hints but that's not really what I was getting at. Before the idea that was Speed Force was even solidified he wrote the definitive arc about Wally stepping out from under Barry's shadow.

You can't really compare superpower dicks across eras. Nothing Waid ever did would ever match the ridiculous crap you would see Silver Age Flash doing. We just think of it as absurd because it's less removed than the pre-crisis stuff. Wally can punch someone into orbit, sure. Barry punched dudes hundreds of years into the future. Wally only got more powers after Terminal Velocity, and this is pretty far into Waid's first run at that point. Not long after things get into Morrison/Millar's hands where it gets really whacky. I think he only gained one power there ("lending" speed) and lost another (couldn't vibrate/phase proactively anymore) under Waid. Pretty modest change, I think, unless I'm missing something.

I agree on the villains thing. Waid's got a real hit or miss record on villains (Thawne, Kadabra, Savitar? Great! Replicant, Cobalt Blue, Kobra? Kind of lame, despite being part of good arcs).

Funny thing about Johns is I always kind of disliked how he seemed to just want Wally to be more like Barry. Wrote him back into having a secret identity, made him work a civilian job for the police force, brought back his "goofy" silver age villains, reverted his costume to look more like Barry's over time, even made a hit villain who's entire schtick was "you're not as good as Barry Allen" while having both of said villain's arcs wrap up with Barry showing up at the end because Wally needed him and couldn't handle flying solo.

Just goes to shows completely different takes on a character can work well when written appropriately.

Two Tone Shoes fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Oct 15, 2015

# ¿ Oct 15, 2015 18:09

Two Tone Shoes: Jan 2, 2009; All that's missing is the ring.

Aphrodite posted:

Zoom should still be able to fight at super speed just fine while falling.

He did and he beat the poo poo out of Barry on the way down. He just couldn't run specifically fast anywhere.

Speaking of Barry's rear end being kicked, time for Barry to makes some legs out of Speed Force.

# ¿ Nov 11, 2015 04:56

Two Tone Shoes: Jan 2, 2009; All that's missing is the ring.

BrianWilly posted:

I don't hate that they made Wally a racer. It's a neat, CWified way to highlight his love of mechanics and to milk some of that sweet F&F hype. It honestly makes so much sense that I'm a little miffed at myself for not having expected it.

What I hated was this hackneyed whiney angry black teenage anger-whine at the absentee father thing that doesn't even make sense. Why is he angry! Joe didn't abandon him! "Oooh you're such a great cop" just shut uuup

I will say I legit laughed at the "white shadow" bit, though. I wasn't proud, but I laughed.

Wally was a mechanic for like a year in the comics, and it had little to do with his "love" of mechanics so much as a crazy plot contrivance.

Wally's core thing he loved was always being a hero.

I don't get where people got this idea that cars are a super important thing about Wally West. That's what Venditti and Jensen did, too (and they notoriously don't know poo poo about Wally).

# ¿ Jan 20, 2016 15:44

Two Tone Shoes: Jan 2, 2009; All that's missing is the ring.

hi liter posted:

Holy poo poo they made Wally a troubled black youth with a criminal history. They really did it.

Hurts, man.

Aphrodite posted:

Venditti and Jensen created the New 52 Flash so whatever they said was important about him was important about him.

No they didn't. Unless you mean they made New 52 Wally in which case why should we take the lead from bad writers writing bad characters who admit they don't know anything about Wally and tossed something together last second when DC forced them to include him? In a show that isn't taking any leads from the New 52 otherwise? He's a loving orphan in the New 52 and, you know, 12, and a lot of other different bad poo poo that I also hope they don't import.

by the by I'm totally cool with him being distant and angry and illogical with his new long lost family because it's a difficult situation with a lot of conflicting emotions, I just don't like "hey let's also turn him into a criminal who needs redeeming, but don't worry he has good goals with his crime" thing because why do they always do that to young black characters and why is that a thing you want to do with someone whose previous core character traits are "heroic and impulsive" ????

It's not like you don't have enough drama to build a soap opera out of this from the outset, adding criminal in need of redeeming nonsense to it is stupid and bad and awful.

Funny enough, despite being the biggest Wally West lover ever I really don't think he has a place on this show. Barry's already got a veritable army of sidekicks and Wally will just be another dude they've gotta scrape time for with Barry along with whoever is being his fake flash mentor, his science team, and his family. But, that said, I was really hoping they'd nail the stuff I like about Wally in the show and they've whiffed mega hard so far.

Two Tone Shoes fucked around with this message at 08:53 on Jan 21, 2016

# ¿ Jan 21, 2016 08:41

Two Tone Shoes: Jan 2, 2009; All that's missing is the ring.

Aphrodite posted:

And also they never left the first time.

I don't care about show Wally.

I'm just saying that them not knowing anything about Wally doesn't really matter at all. Wally West is for all intents and purposes a brand new character. They don't have to know anything about the old one, because he doesn't exist anymore.

People are always complaining that way about New 52 stuff and it's pointless.

Man this is pretty dense logic. They named him Wally West and shat out a bunch of interviews about how it was the return of Wally West. You don't do that poo poo unless you're cashing in on the name and character recognition. It's the same reason Barry's still called Barry and runs fast and isn't, like, Tangent Flash or whatever. He's not an entirely new character because if he was he wouldn't be called Wally West and of course the old loving character exists. If the old character didn't exist why would the new one would be called Wally West?

People complaining on the internet is pointless, news at 11. Talking about The Flash on Something Awful is also pointless. Lots of poo poo is pointless but we still do it because of our investment in things.

Two Tone Shoes fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Jan 21, 2016

# ¿ Jan 21, 2016 17:13

Two Tone Shoes: Jan 2, 2009; All that's missing is the ring.

Linda is the best female character in Flash history so it makes sense she's the best in the show.

but making her shag Barry actually makes my stomach churn even though I logically know it's a different universe with different histories and blah blah. Never gonna be okay with it.

# ¿ Jan 21, 2016 18:57

Two Tone Shoes: Jan 2, 2009; All that's missing is the ring.

Chokes McGee posted:

I hate Wally West.

That's what you've done, CW writers. You've made me hate Wally West.

You've accomplished the literal impossible, hope you're happy.

If you hate this Wally West then you must've hated the comics version so much that you've repressed the memory.

# ¿ Feb 5, 2016 02:07

Two Tone Shoes: Jan 2, 2009; All that's missing is the ring.

32MB OF ESRAM posted:

Bahahahaha wait until Wally gets Flash powers but.... he can't tell Iris...for her safety!

Oh lordy, is she ever going to feel betrayed. You could easily spread that over 5+ episodes. Worry not, friends.

EDIT:VVV I think "White Shadow" just about answers that. VVV

This actually happened in the silver age comics.

Barry was still keeping his secret from Iris, Wally comes around, gets his powers, and Barry makes Wally swear not to tell Iris.

# ¿ Feb 5, 2016 07:44

Two Tone Shoes: Jan 2, 2009; All that's missing is the ring.

I give this show a lot of leeway but man that was dumb as hell.

# ¿ Apr 20, 2016 02:26

Two Tone Shoes: Jan 2, 2009; All that's missing is the ring.

Rhyno posted:

That's a good point. Waid may be one of the best Flash writers ever but he absolutely hated most of the character's past and did everything he could to destroy the memory of Barry Allen.

what the gently caress

did you even read Born To Run, The Return of Barry Allen or Chain Lightning?

I mean yeah he didn't give a poo poo about The Rogues but Waid didn't try to destroy the memory of Barry Allen. He's the one who wrote the quintessential "Wally lives up to Barry's memory" stories. Heck he wrote the flash back nostalgia wank that was JLA Year One and Brave and the Bold, arguably the best modern Barry stories.

Edit: You know what, go read "The Life Story of The Flash" by Waid and tell me he was all about destroying the memory of Barry Allen.

Two Tone Shoes fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Apr 22, 2016

# ¿ Apr 22, 2016 23:08

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# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 06:35

Two Tone Shoes: Jan 2, 2009; All that's missing is the ring.

So Barry's pulling a Wally. Got himself sucked into the Speed Force and is going to shoot back into frame in a bolt of lightning, ten times more powerful than he was before, when Iris is in danger.

# ¿ May 4, 2016 12:21

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > The Flash Season 2 - " Mom, Dad... I'm Jay."