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An impressive range of costs so far:pre:Company Total Monthly AG Vulcan 15100 795 Germaniawerft 27668 1383 Schichau-Werke 15086 838 Kaiserliche Werft 22280 1114 Blohm & Voss 19615 981 Stabilimento Tecnico Triestino 25403 1270
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Sep 8, 2016 09:43
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I'd like to become part of AG Vulcan as well, if possible
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Sep 8, 2016 10:03
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OpenlyEvilJello posted:An impressive range of costs so far:  I believe this only serves to highlight the value of our design. In terms of secondary armament alone it easily outguns any competitor, and with it's 8-inch heavy armament and high speed and comfortably outrange and outrun any opponent. Having run the simulations, we at Germaniawerft can say with confidence that a single Stechmücke-class vessel, competently commanded and crewed, could best 3 or even 4 of our competitor's designs in a fleet action. Furthermore, with a sufficiently capable design, you get a longer service life which can be affordably extended through refits to engine and weapon systems. And once your shipyards have been prepared for the new design, advanced variants of the Stechmücke platform can be developed at a reduced cost.* But most importantly, ask yourself: What does the German Sailor, nay the German Navy, nay the very Kaiser Himself deserve? The very best, and nothing less. And that, sir, is our motto here at Germaniawerft. *(This is a mechanic in the new patch, reduced development cost when you base a new ship design off an existing one.)
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Sep 8, 2016 10:15
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Guns over 6" have a penalty hitting destroyers. Joke's on you.
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Sep 8, 2016 10:30
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Would our friends at Krupp be averse to a bit of collaboration? I am actually quite taken with your design, and I believe that our team here at AG Vulcan might have a few ideas that your engineers would find interesting. After all, we're all Germans here, nein?
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Sep 8, 2016 13:01
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 From the desk of the Blohm & Voss Theoretical Ship Design Division:   "CL" 1901B - dubbed 'Tatsächlicht' is a concept based on a scaled down Victoria Louise class which tries to mate the firepower and durability of a large cruiser with the speed and cost-effectiveness of a smaller protected cruiser. The 5,500t Tatsächlicht features a main armament of 2x2 203mm cannons which are a match for any vessel near its size. It is proof against its own guns at ranges of approx. 5,500m for the main belt while maintaining adequate protection for the rest of the ship against smaller guns (2" BE). The bureau believes that the ship's heavy armament will allow it to remain as relevant as possible in a world of rapid technological advances and thus worthy of the investment. A complement of 4" guns serves to deter smaller attack vessels. 22,000hp propels the ship to the required 23kt speed. An experimental armor scheme was considered, trading the extended belt armor for an extra knot of speed, but the design team decided that the technology wasn't there yet. Clocking in at just over 22 million Marks, the Tatsächlicht is under 2/3 the price of the Victoria Louise for the same main battery and only slightly more expensive than the smaller, slower Gazelle. It's a light cruiser. Really. (I just realized that, as sound as the ship might be, it's gonna get matchmade against other CAs isn't it?  Eh, I'll rework it tomorrow night.)edit, updated later in the thread vvv i have no idea what you're talking about  vvv
TehKeen fucked around with this message at 09:52 on Sep 9, 2016 |
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Sep 8, 2016 13:30
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some of these designs are certifiably insane
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Sep 8, 2016 14:04
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I think I'm doomed because I tend to build "normal" ships and not ruthlessly minmax. I mean mine is just an enlarged Gazelle (real one)/Bremen hybrid.
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Sep 8, 2016 14:15
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Tekopo posted:I'd like to become part of AG Vulcan as well, if possible You've been added. Amwhere posted:What's the rules on independent designers throwing ideas out there? Independent designers may show their designs in the thread, but won't be able to enter the design competitions. There are still plenty of slots remaining, so don't be afraid to join one of the major yards. If a tiebreaker vote is needed due to a design team being split equally, Galaga Galaxian posted:Kaiserliche Werft requests clarifications on the duties of the requested Protected Cruiser. Is it intended as a general purpose vessel, a dedicated fleet scout/escort, or a cruiser in the classical independent patrol and prize-hunter sense? A note from Tirpitz reads: Tirpitz posted:The virtue of our cruisers has always been in their flexibility. Our light cruiser force will be the key component in defending our overseas territories against the British and French, and since these stations are a long way from home I anticipate the light cruiser force will be asked to take up many duties of the armored cruiser force. I recognize that this is a difficult thing to do on such a small displacement, but I nonetheless have confidence in our shipwrights.
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Sep 8, 2016 14:50
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Galaga Galaxian posted:I think I'm doomed because I tend to build "normal" ships and not ruthlessly minmax. I mean mine is just an enlarged Gazelle (real one)/Bremen hybrid. Mine is literally as close to a Town-class CL that I could get.
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Sep 8, 2016 15:48
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Given the admiralty turn their noses up at one of our legacy ships for reeking of Britishness, I dunno if that is a good idea.
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Sep 8, 2016 17:05
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Riso posted:Guns over 6" have a penalty hitting destroyers. Joke's on you. I thought it was over 5"?
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Sep 8, 2016 17:29
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dtkozl posted:I thought it was over 5"? If it is, I will seriously consider modifying my submission.
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Sep 8, 2016 17:40
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Our 5" guns are crap though.
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Sep 8, 2016 19:57
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*Leans forward, puts glass of schnapps on table* Our ships need to go fast! *Pounds table with while moustache vibrates fiercely* Verdammt, fast, i say!
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Sep 8, 2016 20:32
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Kuntz posted:
Although I love the other crackpot "CL" design, I do think that this should be our submission, this is simply a very good design considering our tech. Usually i favor CLs with 2 inch deck armor to avoid splinter hits that really cripples speed, but there is no way to make a CL with our tech and keep the 2 inch deck armor. The real Gneisenau did really turn out to be a great ship, that speed increase really made the difference, all ships of her class will be beasts in the first 5-6 years.
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Sep 8, 2016 20:59
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Pinback posted:Germaniawerft shipworks presents a bold new vision of light ship warfare in the 20th century, the Stechmücke class light fleet cruiser. If we lower the freeboard, can we classify it as a submarine?
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Sep 8, 2016 21:40
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DagPenge posted:Usually i favor CLs with 2 inch deck armor to avoid splinter hits that really cripples speed, but there is no way to make a CL with our tech and keep the 2 inch deck armor. Yeah, that Protected Cruiser deck armor is such a huge weight cost for the displacement of these vessels. I hummed and hawwed long and hard over it before making my choice. Mine is actually the second CL I designed, the first was a smaller version of only 4400 displacement, but then I realized it was extremely similar to existing designs. Also, I hope I'm not scaring anyone away from KW.  Illegal Username posted:*Leans forward, puts glass of schnapps on table* Speed? Bah!  is that way you fool! This is Deutschland! We value armor here.
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Sep 8, 2016 21:42
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Illegal Username posted:*Leans forward, puts glass of schnapps on table* 
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Sep 8, 2016 22:43
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Ya people, just pick a design yard and post botes. I'm actually really fascinated by the distribution of these designs, personally. Running the full gamut from reasonable to radical. My submission was more an exercise to try and design a smaller, cheaper vessel since that's very different from how I usually play this game. It also gave me an excuse to go read what actual light cruisers were like, which was fun.
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Sep 8, 2016 23:55
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professor_curly posted:Would our friends at Krupp be averse to a bit of collaboration? I am actually quite taken with your design, and I believe that our team here at AG Vulcan might have a few ideas that your engineers would find interesting. I can't speak for the executive offices or make firm commitments, but the design team is willing to entertain proposals. What did you have in mind?
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Sep 9, 2016 00:17
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Pinback posted:I can't speak for the executive offices or make firm commitments, but the design team is willing to entertain proposals. What did you have in mind? A variation on the theme of your ship. I think that the Krupp design and our own light cruiser are very complementary, as part of a low/high cost pair. Regardless, here are the tweaks that we've considered: -23 Knot speed, reliable engines. -Remove the tertiary guns -A 12 gun 6-inch secondary battery for all-purpose combat, with 2 inches of armor to maintain effectiveness. -An armor layout that emphasizes the extended belt over the extended deck. Your proposed design is quite ambitious, but I think a lower speed and more reliable engines will serve better in the end. If these ideas seem interesting to you, feel free to incorporate them, or not. We only ask that if you do incorporate some of them and your design is chosen you'll recommend our shipyards to supply further examples of the class. (But really, your ship idea was really good and got me thinking about it.)
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Sep 9, 2016 00:50
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To speak honestly and "out of character" the problems I see with the Germaniawerft design as far as the competition goes is that its so bloody expensive at ~27million. I felt mine was too price at 22. Other than that I don't like the two 8" guns with 6" secondaries. This leaves the 6"ers working on local fire control only. Better to ditch the 8" and allow the 6" battery the (meager) advantage of central rangefinding and the lack of two different caliber guns fouling eachother's accuracy correction with splashes. Also no torpedoes on a CL makes me sad. Oh and cramped accommodations on a ship that might serve as a raider/overseas ship isn't that great IMO. Honestly, its like an anorexic armored cruiser. But thats just me, the awesome thing I've seen with this game is just how different (and opinionated) people can be with their designs.
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Sep 9, 2016 00:56
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That's actually what I really like about this format - the naval requirements make you think a lot more about what you're trying to do as opposed to the other Rule the Waves LP's that had more free-form design teams. I went with a small, reliable model to try and be as economical as possible. Others went with heavier fleet-scouts that are clearly meant for combat. Small armored cruisers, as you said. But the variety is refreshing, and actually reignited interest in the game for me.
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Sep 9, 2016 01:04
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 I like this design too, but I'm worried about the cost. I tried removing the 4" guns and lowering the armor to 2.5" which allows the displacement to be reduced to 4500 which lowers the cost to 17.8 million while keeping 10 6" guns. That might be more appealing to the imperial accountants and the ship would still be protected from other 6" guns (but no longer 8" at 5000 yards). I'll go with whatever the group consensus is for which design to submit, just wanted to offer some ideas. Also TehKeen I love your design but I have to agree that it might not work with the way the game treats CAs vs CLs. Maybe see what it looks like with two single 8" guns? Here's what my variation would look like:  Also here's an image that I think would work for either of our 6" CL designs. 
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Sep 9, 2016 01:18
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Protected cruisers are always tricky early on. Whereas battleships, destroyers, and even armored cruisers can be designed to accomplish all their goals well, the requirements for raiding versus fleet support require such different design priorities that it's very difficult to make a balanced ship that is good at everything rather than just mediocre. A raider needs to be fast so you can escape heavier ships, and preferably light and cheap so you can both replace them easily and build them in large enough numbers to really hurt enemy commerce. Fleet support requires armor to at least shrug off some heavy cruiser hits and also enough guns to fight destroyer squadrons. It's practically impossible to have all of the above, especially with 1901 tech. It's really easy to see where each designer made cuts. I'm interested to see which one (or more?) gets selected.
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Sep 9, 2016 01:23
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Uncle Friedrich says I don't have to do anything that's not submarine related if I don't want to, but the shortsighted and unimaginative Naval Office keeps demanding these surface ships so here's my 2 marks: It's a great fleet cruiser design but
AG Vulcan's offer is acceptable so long as all members of this class are built in Germaniawerft's yards for the next four years. After which, AG Vulcan can build all of the new members of the class, as well as handle half of any future upgrades to the class, the other half to be handled by Germaniawerft of course. Also, AG Vulcan has to issue a statement that U-boats are the best boats, and that Germaniwerft makes the best U-boats 
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Sep 9, 2016 01:56
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I like the big primary caliber armament for reasons of directors, although I do acknowledge that it may well be a bit big for torpedo ship hunting and small in a way that won't punch through peer armor with some of the guns as compared to split. The gunnery is going to be enough better that I think it works out in the homogenous battery's favor especially as time goes on.
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Sep 9, 2016 02:15
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 Special Decision #1: The Kaiser himself has decided to As he engages the group in a lively discussion about the state of naval technology, the uncomfortable topic of the 1901 design competition is brought up. It seems the Kaiser thought that the money earmarked for the new light cruiser program should have gone into building more ships of the Gneisenau class. This begins a 30-minute tirade about the role of the light cruiser being "outdated," several insults slung at the designers of the Lübeck class, and a curious note of admiration for the design of the SMS Medusa, during which the kaiser gets increasingly drunk. At the end of his speech, the Kaiser looks around the now-sobered table for comment. Do you: A: Politely acknowledge the Kaiser's...Intriguing...philosophies? B: Eagerly flatter the Kaiser for his visionary role in naval theory? C: Attempt to offer an Apologia Pro the light cruiser? or D: Decline to comment? Make your choice known in the thread before the next update! Those who do not choose are automatically assumed to have taken option D and declined to comment on the matter. ---------- Occasionally, your character in the game will be given the opportunity to make special decisions. These special decisions may or may not have an immediate or lasting effect throughout the game. For now, any option you pick will be relatively safe, but don't assume this will always be true. Remember, things have a way of coming around when you least expect it... The deadline for the Light cruiser competition remains tomorrow (9/9) at 5:00pm EST. For those companies with multiple proposals, please come to a consensus (using a vote, if need be) before the deadline. If you are deadlocked, the Imperial Naval Office will provide the tiebreaking vote.
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Sep 9, 2016 03:01
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B "Too bad those assholes at the Imperial Naval Office like CL's so much, huh? Well, as long as we have to build some light cruisers, we might as well make them as close to a CA as possible, right? Have I showed you our fast and well-armed Stechmucke design...?"
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Sep 9, 2016 03:10
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C: Attempt to offer an Apologia Pro the light cruiser. With all do respect my liege, but just as land battles require both the infantry, artillery and cavalry component to succeed, so too does our fleet require an array of capabilities utilized in tandem to achieve it's best result. Pinback fucked around with this message at 04:59 on Sep 9, 2016 |
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Sep 9, 2016 03:13
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C: Attempt to offer an Apologia Pro the light cruiser But Your Highness! Light cruisers tie our colonial empire together! Think of how small the British Empire would be without a fleet of light cruisers patrolling her far flung possessions, keeping any meddling Frenchmen from snapping up more territory.
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Sep 9, 2016 03:28
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Sign me up for the Kaiserliche Werft, please. As my first action, I put this design in front of Kaiserliche's board:   Cheap is what I was going for. Torpedoes are still a developing technology, so not having them isn't that bad. Eventually they'll give way to large destroyers, but for now, they'll be useful.
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Sep 9, 2016 03:29
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Picture of the Kaiser around ~1900, wearing his Admiral's uniform (you just know he showed up in it). THAT IS THE As a military officer, the insults slung at the Lubeck (a perfectly serviceable ship) sting slightly, and the praise for the Medusa rankles. I am torn. The Gneisenau is an excellent ship and it'd be a shame to make her a one off, but at the same time, we need faster light cruisers. C - Your excellency, I would agree that the classical protected cruisers of the last century are approaching obsolescence but the new century will see the need for a new breed of Light Cruiser that... Amwhere posted:Sign me up for the Kaiserliche Werft, please. Welcome aboard! I had considered a "popcorn" design, but there are a few problems I have with this ship. No armor (how Un-German), No torpedoes*, no guns of any quality (our 5"s are crap, use 4" or 6"), and "speed" engines are too unreliable for even a "disposable" commerce raider. She's also questionable (IMO) as a fleet scout. * Even if they're kinda crap at this point in time, they keep the enemy from getting too aggressive and always seem to strike when you start dismissing them. Plus they're so relatively light (46 dTons for a pair) for a weapon that can potentially sink a 16,000dTon battleship in one hit (or at least force it to retire from the battle) that why not have one or two? Galaga Galaxian fucked around with this message at 03:46 on Sep 9, 2016 |
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Sep 9, 2016 03:42
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Speed engines are a really great way to build a ship that can run away from an engagement but not for long enough to actually get away. Also OOC (dear god this does not get said to his face): But Kaiser, the cruisers are the strong left arm to the battleships' right arm! It's unthinkable that a man could have a strong right arm without an equally strong left, a balance is essential or the whole is compromised! xthetenth fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Sep 9, 2016 |
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Sep 9, 2016 03:50
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xthetenth posted:Also OOC (dear god this does not get said to his face): But Kaiser, the cruisers are the strong left arm to the battleships' right arm! It's unthinkable that a man could have a strong right arm without an equally strong left, a balance is essential or the whole is compromised! It's a good thing you're not saying this to him in real life, that's a good way to get a 1-1.5 punch in the face.
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Sep 9, 2016 04:01
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Galaga Galaxian posted:Welcome aboard! I had considered a "popcorn" design, but there are a few problems I have with this ship. I can see your point - that said, a ship of 2100t can't have submerged tubes - and 2" of belt is proof against 5" guns. It's likely that we'll get quality 0 5" guns, so they would be replaced in her first (and likely only) refit. Also, the speed engines can be swapped for cramped crew or short range. (However, if the Kaiser suddenly needs 14 cruisers - these can be fit in a budget easier. Something to think about.) Edit: The more I play around with designs, I think 24 knots is too costly. Dropping it to 23 saves a lot of weight. Amwhere fucked around with this message at 04:24 on Sep 9, 2016 |
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Sep 9, 2016 04:14
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Amwhere posted:I can see your point - that said, a ship of 2100t can't have submerged tubes - and 2" of belt is proof against 5" guns. It's likely that we'll get quality 0 5" guns, so they would be replaced in her first (and likely only) refit. Also, the speed engines can be swapped for cramped crew or short range. Yeah, need 2500 tons for a torpedo flat. Also, I strongly oppose the idea of building crap now with the thought "oh we'll fix it later". Who knows when (or if) we'll get +0 5" guns. If thats your line of though, I'd instead do 4" guns and upgrade to 5" later (removing a few) if the quality improves. For a "weenie" design, I'd maybe do something like this:  That said, the numbers for ship weight below 3300 (but above destroyer displacement) gets really weird when you take the speed above 21 knots. The ship actually loses displacement remaining as you increase the size until it reaches 3300. I wonder if this is part of RULE THE WAVES v1.24 RELEASE posted:* Slight change in engine weight calculations to make it harder to build fast ships larger than destroyers early in the game. Also for all of us, a patch note to consider when debating on engine quality to use for these little guys: RULE THE WAVES v1.24 RELEASE posted:* Fast (>20 knot) ships built with low levels of engine development now have a higher risk of breakdown in extended high speed runs. Triggerhappypilot posted:It's a good thing you're not saying this to him in real life, that's a good way to get a 1-1.5 punch in the face. Took me a minute to realize what the joke here was. I think it'd be worse than a punch. The kaiser would shoot him with a pistol.  It certainly wouldn't be a rifle Galaga Galaxian fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Sep 9, 2016 |
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Sep 9, 2016 04:39
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B. The Kaiser, as always, makes a very good point. The Gneisenau is indeed an excellent design and by happy coincidence Blohm und Voss designed a slightly improved version of that very ship last year. Our shipyard would also be well prepared if there was a sudden need for additional armored cruisers (which btw could totally sink any CL currently afloat (especially French or English ones(also Japanese and Russian ones too(and American CLs and any other countries that have CLs(plus larger ACs would be way more impressive on foreign stations instead of dinky little CLs))))). If His Majesty wishes for more details I have a copy of our sales brochure from 1900 right here in my briefcase: DagPenge posted:
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Sep 9, 2016 05:42
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I'll take a crack as a designer for Schichau-Werke. I've been wanting to get back into RtW and it's the perfect excuse.
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Sep 9, 2016 06:00
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