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Usual Barb posted:I'll take a crack as a designer for Schichau-Werke. I've been wanting to get back into RtW and it's the perfect excuse. Welcome aboard. 
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Sep 9, 2016 06:05
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xthetenth posted:Also OOC (dear god this does not get said to his face): But Kaiser, the cruisers are the strong left arm to the battleships' right arm! It's unthinkable that a man could have a strong right arm without an equally strong left, a balance is essential or the whole is compromised!  I think dublish has the right approach: Look at Uncle Ted's pretty cruisers! If he's got 'em, you need 'em too.
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Sep 9, 2016 06:16
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xthetenth posted:Also OOC (dear god this does not get said to his face): But Kaiser, the cruisers are the strong left arm to the battleships' right arm! It's unthinkable that a man could have a strong right arm without an equally strong left, a balance is essential or the whole is compromised! 
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Sep 9, 2016 06:25
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B. I agree with the Kaiser, the Gneisenau is a great ship design and I am sure that this is the way of the future. How lucky we are that our esteemed kaiser is so visionary! Also MeatloafCat I think we should propose your variant 1, instead of the original, as I feel the two side torps and the smaller price tag is worth more than the extra armor and few secondary guns.
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Sep 9, 2016 07:24
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   An alternative offering from Schichau-Werke, offering increased firepower and armour protection with no sacrifices made in speed. Ten 6" guns, backed by eight high quality 3" secondaries offer heavy firepower against light vessels and merchant shipping, while a 2.5" belt offers extra protection against larger threats, allowing it time to retreat using its superior speed.
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Sep 9, 2016 07:49
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 From the desk of the Blohm & Voss Theoretical Ship Design Division:   Alright, having another go at making 2x2 8" CL that is actually a CL this time. The 1901C has 8" guns capable of dealing with anything short of large CAs; goes 24kts so she can outstrip anything that outguns her - without having to resort to shoddy lightweight machinery, mind you; and has a uniform armor scheme of 2.5" all the way down the hull. She can obliterate other CLs (of which older classes have no chance of outrunning or outranging her), this ship can also lend fire support to a battle line - and will stay relevant for some time provided our ammunition tech stays up to date. Once she starts getting left behind, she can enjoy a nice trip to the colonies to patrol there and keep our holdings safe until her eventual retirement. B&V friends, whaddya think?  If torpedoes are a must, the BE can be dropped to 2" for a bow torpedo launcher. ---------- I'm going with option B for all the same reasons as MeatloafCat. Getting the Kaiser buttered up on the idea of large, fast ships will serve B&V well when we start making the case for full-fledged battlecruisers.
TehKeen fucked around with this message at 10:22 on Sep 9, 2016 |
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Sep 9, 2016 09:38
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TehKeen posted:
Really nice concept and sideview, but I can't endorse the design due to the narrow belt (is that ever worth it?), cramped accomodation and high cost, but I did come up with a revision. The Pocket Gneisenau:  It loses out on speed, but 24 knots is just that hard to justify in 1901. It does have reliable engines, normal crew accomodations, and a better armor scheme, including shrapnel protection on turret tops and secondaries. And then of course the cost, just under half of the real Gneisenau. If you're interested, we can share credit or you can take the credit, I'm just curious to see how it performs if it wins. Meanwhile I still officially endorse my first design. (btw I'm almost certain double turrets on CL at this point in the game is a bug, but hey, it's in the game. The ship design constraints the devs have imposed are too tight-assed anyway. Can't even design a proper monitor.  )edit: changed design a bit Kuntz fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Sep 9, 2016 |
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Sep 9, 2016 13:15
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Ok guys, quick before he heads back to the cognac cart, I think if TehKeen shows the Kaiser the sideview for the 1901C and Kuntz sketches his design for the 1901G on a few napkins then we might be able to influence his Majesty's choice in the upcoming competition. The Kaiser clearly wants more cruisers and this might be a way for him to get what he wants without his admirals moaning about cancelling the CL competition. What do you guys think? Also I'm going to change my vote to the 1901G Pocket Gneisenau design. I think it fits best with the new naval strategies outlined by the Kaiser while still technically being a light cruiser. MeatloafCat fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Sep 9, 2016 |
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Sep 9, 2016 13:33
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Amwhere posted:I can see your point - that said, a ship of 2100t can't have submerged tubes - and 2" of belt is proof against 5" guns. It's likely that we'll get quality 0 5" guns, so they would be replaced in her first (and likely only) refit. Also, the speed engines can be swapped for cramped crew or short range. never refit 23kt CLs good God how come none of you clowns have outfitted your designs for colonial service considering it's directly in the tender
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Sep 9, 2016 14:34
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But they might need long range then, that's a massive cost in tonnage when you can just shove more turrets on it so the Kaiser can make the sound of a hand and a half clapping.
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Sep 9, 2016 14:54
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I love the 1901G Pocket Gneisenau design, because apparently no matter what you ask for, Blohm and Voss will try to design a battlecruiser. I look forward to seeing how our destroyer design will look. I say lets propose the pocket Gneisenau as our design, we have the Kaisers ear and the Kaiser is a wise man.
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Sep 9, 2016 15:12
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SIGSEGV posted:But they might need long range then, that's a massive cost in tonnage when you can just shove more turrets on it so the Kaiser can make the sound of a hand and a half clapping. you don't need long range for colonial service though, regular is fine
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Sep 9, 2016 15:17
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Colonial service is 60 tons for making the ship count as 120-140% (can't remember exactly offhand) of its actual displacement for the colonial tonnage requirements. AKAIK it doesn't effect raiding duties. Its a strange upgrade. The ships that can easily afford it are already plenty heavy, and the light ships that could really use it are hard pressed to spare the weight (which easily be an extra pair of guns, a bit more armor, part of a range upgrade etc) Galaga Galaxian fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Sep 9, 2016 |
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Sep 9, 2016 15:55
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:how come none of you clowns have outfitted your designs for colonial service considering it's directly in the tender It's not really worth it at this point. We've got a single Victoria Louise on service in the Indian Ocean, Southeast Asia and Northeast Asia, and a measly 3100 ton Hela in West Africa. A colonial service CL might free up those CAs, but we've got 10 CAs in Northern Europe already (9 of the Victoria Louise class, 1 Gneisenau), and another Gneisenau under construction.
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Sep 9, 2016 15:58
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Triggerhappypilot posted:
While it is true that the Gneisenau is a mighty vessel that should have many sister-ships in our fleet, the fact remains that we could not cover and control our colonial possessions by focusing on small number of larger ships.
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Sep 9, 2016 16:39
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 Changed my design to the Pocket Gneisenau. Triggerhappypilot posted:
B: Your Majesty, Your rousing speech rings true! Traditional protected cruisers are becoming long in the tooth and Germany should not hamper herself with outdated designs. In that vein please allow me to be so bold as to introduce You to a design that fulfills the requirements of the 1901 design competetion, while being, I am sure, more in line with Your vision. You see, I have been collaborating with a brilliant young designer at the Blohm & Voss Theoretical Ship Design Division, and we have come up with something frankly unprecedented. A cruiser design of 5500t with beatiful lines, firepower approaching that of the Victoria Louise class, and a top speed of 23 knots, she fullfills all the requirements of the 1901 design competition. We have dubbed her 'Pocket Gneisenau'. She can fullfill most any role, from fleet scout, commerce raider to colonial station, all the while blasting the enemy's protected cruisers out of the water with her superior firepower. Her projected cost being just under half of the Gneisenau's, she can be built in numbers, but is rather expensive compared to a typical protected cruiser. Regardless, I am sure that with Your Majesty's endorsement even the stingiest bean counters at the Imperial Naval Office would be swayed. And I just so happen to have with me a mostly up-to-date design draft and left elevation plan, right here, Majesty:  (OOC: I was going to wait for TehKeen on this, but everyone else at B&V seems to be onboard so I went ahead. I also modified the Pocket G slightly to conform to TehKeen's sideview, dropping secondaries down to 7 and upping armor a bit, making it a bit cheaper as a result. Odd numbered secondaries don't show up in the ship viewer but work as if they were centerline mounted.)
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Sep 9, 2016 16:44
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Galaga Galaxian posted:Colonial service is 60 tons for making the ship count as 120-140% (can't remember exactly offhand) of its actual displacement for the colonial tonnage requirements. It was 1.5x displacement as of last time I opened the game. I just made a bunch of 2500t heavy avisos which work really well. Much better to have an aviso and two fleet destroyers than a (non obsolete) fleet cruiser in the colonies.
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Sep 9, 2016 20:01
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:It was 1.5x displacement as of last time I opened the game. It was 1.25x last I checked. I ran an 800 ton colonial service minesweeper (tonnage chosen to come out to a nice round thousand for foreign stations).
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Sep 9, 2016 20:36
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Sign me up as a designer for B&V. Are you guys doing the designs just opening a random save that's about at the right year and making the designs in that?
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Sep 9, 2016 21:53
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Saves are being provided.
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Sep 9, 2016 21:56
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Hey guys, I have some interesting news. You know that varied tech setting TriggerHappy is using? Well, I just discovered this morning a change it has made in THIS game. Gun Penetration Values have been reduced by ~42% This is, uh, certainly going to make things interesting. (And yes, I purposely waited until after the deadline to reveal this) Galaga Galaxian fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Sep 9, 2016 |
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Sep 9, 2016 21:59
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 Here is another proposal from AG Vulcan for a ship that is designed for colonial service. Long range, good speed, solid armaments. That's all you need.   I'm really bad at designing but this has been fun.
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Sep 9, 2016 22:31
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Past the deadline man. 
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Sep 9, 2016 22:40
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This type of disregard for deadlines is un-German and frankly exactly the kind of thing I've come to expect from AG Vulcan.
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Sep 9, 2016 22:43
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Galaga Galaxian posted:Hey guys, I have some interesting news. You know that varied tech setting TriggerHappy is using? Well, I just discovered this morning a change it has made in THIS game. I thought the gun stats looked low even for the early game. Should be interesting going forward, maybe we can see some heavily armored torpedo barges or experiments with HE spam.
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Sep 9, 2016 22:45
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Kuntz posted:Really nice concept and sideview, but I can't endorse the design due to the narrow belt (is that ever worth it?), cramped accomodation and high cost, but I did come up with a revision. The Pocket Gneisenau: It was my understanding that narrow belt just increases the chance of BE hits vs. B hits - in my design they're exactly the same, and it seemed to be a weight saving for having while remaining a rather tough CL. I'm totally down with the 1901G, and I'm more than happy to share credit. Reliable engines and torpedoes sealed that much for me. She'll be able to do 23kt basically indefinitely. Also, I'm pretty sure that having large dual turrets is a function of the protected cruiser armor scheme as I'm sure you can't have multiple-gun turrets above 6" on actual "Light" cruisers once it becomes available. MeatloafCat posted:Ok guys, quick before he heads back to the cognac cart, I think if TehKeen shows the Kaiser the sideview for the 1901C and Kuntz sketches his design for the 1901G on a few napkins then we might be able to influence his Majesty's choice in the upcoming competition. The Kaiser clearly wants more cruisers and this might be a way for him to get what he wants without his admirals moaning about cancelling the CL competition. What do you guys think? Sounds good to me! DagPenge posted:I love the 1901G Pocket Gneisenau design, because apparently no matter what you ask for, Blohm and Voss will try to design a battlecruiser. I look forward to seeing how our destroyer design will look.  Kuntz posted:(OOC: I was going to wait for TehKeen on this, but everyone else at B&V seems to be onboard so I went ahead. I also modified the Pocket G slightly to conform to TehKeen's sideview, dropping secondaries down to 7 and upping armor a bit, making it a bit cheaper as a result. Odd numbered secondaries don't show up in the ship viewer but work as if they were centerline mounted.) I hope my zany concepts don't end up getting us all shot. Anyway, my vote goes to the 1901G Pocket Gneisenau! Sorry for the huge post and not posting sooner, I got scheduled for some hellish shifts this W/Th/F.  Really looking forward to this next update!
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Sep 9, 2016 22:51
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Shame these will all be garbage scows in 3-5 years.
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Sep 9, 2016 23:02
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MeatloafCat posted:I thought the gun stats looked low even for the early game. Should be interesting going forward, maybe we can see some heavily armored torpedo barges or experiments with HE spam. Why bother with heavy armor? The age of the battlecruiser is nigh.
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Sep 9, 2016 23:19
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uPen posted:Shame these will all be garbage scows in 3-5 years. Yeah but that's pretty much the name of the game.
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Sep 9, 2016 23:25
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uPen posted:Shame these will all be garbage scows in 3-5 years. We know that, but the Kaiser doesn't. >_>
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Sep 9, 2016 23:31
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TehKeen posted:It was my understanding that narrow belt just increases the chance of BE hits vs. B hits - in my design they're exactly the same, and it seemed to be a weight saving for having while remaining a rather tough CL. It also increases the chance of a hit striking no armor, so no cheating the system there.
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Sep 9, 2016 23:49
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Whoops, miscalculated EST, oh well.
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Sep 9, 2016 23:59
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Galaga Galaxian posted:It also increases the chance of a hit striking no armor, so no cheating the system there. If the alternative is 0" extended armor, maybe the narrow belt is worth it?
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Sep 10, 2016 00:21
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dublish posted:If the alternative is 0" extended armor, maybe the narrow belt is worth it? It can be, but I interpreted TehKeen's statement as "If my Belt and Extended Belt are the same thickness, I get free weight!" Maybe I was wrong.
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Sep 10, 2016 00:23
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One of a CLs main jobs is to smash DDs - and 8" aren't good at that. Anyway - after yesterday's discussions with Galaga, I put this on Kaiserliche's table: 
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Sep 10, 2016 01:13
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I've already said twice the DEADLINE IS EXPIRED Not a bad raider though.
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Sep 10, 2016 01:24
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Galaga Galaxian posted:It can be, but I interpreted TehKeen's statement as "If my Belt and Extended Belt are the same thickness, I get free weight!" Maybe I was wrong. My reasoning was a combination of these two. I've lost a lot of ships to flooding from BE hits :/
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Sep 10, 2016 01:26
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TehKeen posted:We know that, but the Kaiser doesn't. >_> The Kaiser should be hauled away as garbage. Cruisers? Give me torpedo boats.
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Sep 10, 2016 01:34
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Galaga Galaxian posted:Hey guys, I have some interesting news. You know that varied tech setting TriggerHappy is using? Well, I just discovered this morning a change it has made in THIS game. I, ah, think you might've mislabeled your columns, there, buddy.
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Sep 10, 2016 02:25
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Update 3: The Kaiser's Cruisers, The 1901 Design competition, and the end of an era The Kaiser's Cruisers As The Kaiser finishes his rant, the table of ship designers erupts into a heated debate between a faction supporting the development of newer light cruisers and one dedicated only to increasingly large warships. In the camp of the light cruisers are a smattering of theorists and shipwrights from the various shipyards. The core of the armored cruisers camp consists mostly of the designers from Blohm und Voss, who, over the course of the debate, draw up a sketch of a "pocket-Gneisenau" that would become their submission from the design contest. The light cruiser camp derides this design as "farcical" and "Unicorn-like," with one particularly salty old designer calling it "an armored cruiser without the armor, and missing a lot of the cruiser." As the discussion simmers down, the Kaiser, who thinks his ideas validated by the slight majority of the ship designers agreeing with him, excuses himself from the table to have a private chat with Tirpitz and some higher-ranking members of the Admiralty. The chat is brief- only about five minutes, and then the Kaiser departs, feeling rather tired. It's barely perceptible, but the ship designers notice Tirpitz shooting them cold stares for the rest of the night. Several days later, a few notes arrive bearing official Imperial Naval Office markings: Tirpitz posted:Naval architects are requested to refrain from encouraging the Kaiser's hobby whenever possible. The design contest of 1901 Gentlemen, The Imperial Naval Office has recieved 5 proposals from each of the major shipyards. We are impressed at the diversity of proposals submitted.  Germaniawerft's "Stechmücke" Perhaps the Germaniawerft design board is aware of the irony, but naming one of the largest and most expensive proposals after a tiny annoyance seems in rather poor taste. That being said, the proposed ship is technically impressive, managing to make 24 knots with protection equivalent to similar proposals, and one of the largest batteries yet seen. Unfortunately, the cost of this is a non-uniform battery, which our captains have complained about before. Additionally, the large cost of this vessel will make purchasing large numbers difficult.  AG Vulcan's Light Cruiser #1 AG Vulcan once again chooses a fairly conservative design. It is among the cheapest and smallest of the proposals, and this shows in the design. The Naval office's greatest concern is again the non-uniform battery, consisting of 6" and 4" as the primary component of firepower. This, unfortunately, will not do- the Mixed battery of SMS Medusa was the source of a great number of complaints from the vessel's commanding officer. While we appreciate AG Vulcan's desire to keep the vessel cheap, they have opted for a design that would be of limited value even in great numbers.  Kaiserliche Werft's Cruiser Proposal 1901C Note: The designers of the Kaiserliche Werft do not appear to have reached a consensus. I have broken the tie this time in favor of the most senior designer. The Kaiserliche Werft's proposal is perhaps the most orthodox of the designs recieved. Mounting a heavy uniform main battery of 6" guns and making 24 knots, the cruiser looks to be well rounded. We must, however express some concern for the size and expected cost of the vessel, as well as the choice of casemated main guns, which might make training the artillery on fast-moving targets difficult.  Schichau-Werke's Light Cruiser Mod. 1901A Note: the designers of Schichau-Werke do not appear to have reached a consensus. I have broken the tie this time in favor of the most senior designer. Schichau-Werke's proposal is impressive, considering they managed to replicate the core features of the Kaiserliche Werft's proposal on a displacement about 1/3 smaller. However, the sacrifice of gunshields and deck armor is simply far too great a risk to the crews in a close-range engagement with quick-firing guns, and the addition of a tiny number of 4" guns seems a trivial addition for displacement that might have been better used to protect the crew.  Blohm und Voss's Light Cruiser 1901G "Pocket Gneisenau" Well, I see Blohm und Voss has been flirting with the Kaiser. Trying to compress the essence of a ship like the Gneisenau onto something less than half its size is no doubt a herculean effort. But really, for all the complexity of 8-inch gun turrets, are such compromises really worth... *ahem* It's less expensive than Kaiserliche Werft's proposal? Perhaps I was wrong to dismiss the ship so out of hand. True, it has lost a knot of speed, but it maintains the same level of protection as their design, and 8-inch guns should make short work of enemy ships of similar size. I must express that this may be a bridge too far for our ship design, but I suppose indulging the Kaiser just a little bit might help with funding the next naval expansion law. Blohm und Voss's ship will enter service as the Berlin-class light cruiser. I have one request from the Naval Weapons Office: The centerline 4-inch turret will be replaced operationally with a dual 75mm L/42 SK mount currently under development for sea trials. The weapon should not significantly affect the design of the vessel.  January, 1901: Blohm und Voss has won the design competition! The first ship of the Berlin class is laid down! Blohm und Voss gains 55 + 28 (50% design bonus) for new ship order! January, 1901: Another Ship of the Berlin class is laid down! The contract is awarded to Germaniawerft! Germaniawerft gains 55 points! ___________________ 1901: End of an Era  Her Majesty Queen Victoria of England, grandmother of our Kaiser, is dead. Long live King Edward VII! All pomp and ceremony aside, this spells bad news. The Kaiser and his uncle, the former Prince of Wales, have had a stormy relationship for many years now. The Kaiser has made a personal visit to England to see to the funerary arrangements of his grandmother. Perhaps they will have a chance to mend their relationship? Either way, the English see this as the end of an era, even going so far as to predict an apocalypse. We shall carefully observe the extent of their mettle in this new age.  The Victoria Louise-class armored cruiser Hertha, currently assigned to foreign stations duty, hosts a party in New York harbor, one of the first visits made by the Kaiserliche Marine to the new world. As the evening grows dim, New York senator Chauncey Depew makes an unfortunate comment indicating that his past connection with the railroad industry may not have been completely severed by his acceptance of a senate seat. The captain, knowing that discretion is the better part of valor, changes topic to foreign affairs, speaking at length about the Korean crisis of last summer.  In April, a series of expansions to shipbuilding capacity leaves Germany with the second largest yards of any nation, able to build ships up to 16000 tons.  Germaniawerft, short on orders due to the loss of any ship of significant value, makes a deal with the Imperial Naval Office to provide another battleship at a discount. Tirpitz, after fidgeting with the budget, manages to make it work. April, 1901: Another Ship of the Preussen class is laid down at a discount! The contract is awarded to Germaniawerft! Germaniawerft gains 140 - 14 (10% discount) points! Special yard bonuses won't apply to ships ordered at a discount.  Speaking with the Steel Magnates of Germany, Tirpitz agrees to press the Kaiser for more funding and a larger fleet. Since it seems to be in everyone's best interest, a small measure of additional funding to pay for the new Preussen class vessel is passed with little difficulty. This inflames tensions with France, who has already shown great concern over the German navy's rapid expansion.    May sees a flurry of ceremony, with 3 new battleships commissioned. The Deutschland and Hannover are nearly identical to their sister Hessen, launched months ago.  Braunschweig is a different story. The ship, ordered in 1899, is originally an English design, modified to German standards, then built in a French yard. While not quite as much of a freak as the Medusa, the ship is one knot too slow for the battle line's top speed, thus earning it the unflattering nickname of "Halbkrüppel." Nonetheless, she is tonnage that Germany desperately needs.  Communists! Thieves! Charlatans! A memo is going around some of the sailors of the fleet, accusing the Admiralty of running a star-chamber Reichstag for the sake of the profits of rich businessmen. In response, possession of socialist propaganda is made a crime, and distribution of such material will be grounds for a conviction for treason. With new battleships in commission, more of the budget is freed up for more Berlin class cruisers. May, 1901: Another Ship of the Berlin class is laid down! The contract is awarded to AG Vulcan! AG Vulcan gains 55 points! May, 1901: Another Ship of the Berlin class is laid down! The contract is awarded to the Kaiserliche Werft! K-W gains 55 + 6 (10%) light cruiser bonus) points! May, 1901: Another Ship of the Berlin class is laid down! The contract is awarded to Schichau-Werke! S-W gains 55 points! May, 1901: Another Ship of the Berlin class is laid down at a discount! The contract is awarded to Blohm und Voss! B+v gains 55 points!  In June, final trials for the 283mm L/45 naval cannon are completed. The cannon offers superior performance to the old 283mm L/35 model currently in use.  By July, the naval boom has spurred new docks from all private manufacturers, allowing ships up to 17000 tons to be built.  After playing around with boiler-room arrangements, many naval designers are still stuck on how to incorporate a third barbette without disrupting the machinery spaces.  The Krupp arms conglomerate considers sending a mission to Japan to profit off the naval boom going on there. The two powers operate in different spheres, but the Kaiser is still reluctant to strengthening a navy that has had close cooperation with Britain.  In September, an Italian force in Abyssinia attempts to stop merchant vessels transiting the Red Sea to demand passage fees. While it turns out to be the work of a scheming captain and not a government policy, a brief war-scare elevates tensions dramatically. Both France and Italy look to be likely opponents in the next great war.   The Kaiser interferes with naval policy yet again by licensing a design for a curious innovation called a "double bottom", which consists of a second set of watertight decks above the bilge. The designer promises that his new hull will eliminate the risk of sinking due to torpedo hits. Tirpitz is unamused, but concedes that the design might have some merit.  In November, the Kaiser makes an unannounced visit to French president Émile Loubet. While the two are noted for their forceful attitude, they manage to cobble together an agreement of little real consequence except a reduction in naval expenditures. It seems the French do not want an arms race. Tirpitz privately scorns the agreement, but recognizes it will put Germany in a position far superior to that of the French should tensions flare up again. The loss of the budget does sting somewhat.  In a speech to the navy league in early December, Tirpitz considers insulting the poor discipline of the Italian navy, but gives a generic answer trying to explain his earlier acceptance of the Kaiser's agreement with France. The speech is recieved poorly in both Italy and France, effectively wiping out most of the goodwill of the earlier agreement.  Then, in January, Tirpitz makes an ill-calculated move by accusing the French of another incursion into Montenegro. This comment is widely publicized in right-wing French and German newspapers, stirring tensions between the nations between their highest level.  The World holds its breath... ________________________ 1902 Design Competition Gentlemen, The Imperial Naval Office is ready to approve the construction of a new class of 600 ton torpedo boats for use in the coming conflict. We require a design that fulfills the following criteria: -No greater than 600 ton displacement -At least 1 gun greater than 2" We realize that torpedo boats are very similar in design, but nonetheless we would like to see the best you have to offer. The due date for the design submission will be Monday, 9/12, at 5pm EST. A save file for the current year is available here.
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Sep 10, 2016 07:34
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