DAPL: coward pipe defeats water protectors

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Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

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NEW OP

The resistance against the Dakota Access Pipeline began in the spring of 2016 in reaction to the approved construction of Energy Transfer Partners' Dakota Access Pipeline. The approved pipeline would run from the Bakken oil fields in western North Dakota to southern Illinois, crossing beneath the Missouri and Mississippi rivers, as well as part of Lake Oahe near the Standing Rock Indian Reservation. In April, LaDonna Brave Bull Allard, a Standing Rock Sioux elder, established a camp as a center for cultural preservation and spiritual resistance to the pipeline. Said camp is now under threat from eviction, with a no-fly zone being established in preparation for further military action against the camp next week.

Backstory

In September 2014, Standing Rock Sioux Tribal (SRST) Councilman Dave Archambault II conducted an initial informational meeting between the SRST and Dakota Access Pipeline representatives. At the beginning of the meeting, Archambault indicated the tribe's opposition to the project within treaty boundaries. Additional SRST representatives voiced opposition and concerns about the pipeline.

In July 2016, the tribe sued for an injunction on the grounds that the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers had failed to conduct a proper environmental and cultural impact study. Protests had escalated at the pipeline site in North Dakota, with numbers swelling from just a bare handful of people to hundreds and then thousands over the summer.

On August 23, Standing Rock Sioux Tribe released a list of 87 tribal governments who wrote resolutions, proclamations and letters of support stating their solidarity with Standing Rock and the Sioux people. Since then, many more Native American organizations, politicians, environmental groups and civil rights groups have joined the effort in North Dakota, including the Black Lives Matter movement, indigenous leaders from the Amazon Basin of South America, Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders, the 2016 Green Party presidential candidate Jill Stein and her running mate Ajamu Baraka, and many more. The Washington Post called it a "National movement for Native Americans."

A full timeline can be found here

As of September, this was the largest gathering of native americans ever, bringing together over ninety tribes, many of whom are traditional enemies.

What is the protest about, really?

Water, sovereignty and anti-repression. The tribes have historically gotten the shortest conceivable end of the US stick, and most are both worried that their water supply will be contaminated, their ancestral graves desecrated, and that they will once again be murdered to secure the bottom line of white executives.

The legal history is complicated, but given the history between the federal government and native populations, they have no reason to expect fair play.

If you come into this thread to wave your legal and/or police boner, please read this

Stickarts posted:

What I think that article shows above all else is the dysfunction that exists between First Nations and the federal jurisdictions they find themselves under. Everyone in this thread sussing and tut tutting about the letter of law are being willfully blind to the violent and genocidal history that those laws were formed in and bound to. A law is only as effective as the degrees of trust and good faith the people impacted by it have in it.

Why would the Lakota place any degree of trust in a system that, for 200+ years, has consistently and inevitably warped and twisted itself to pursue it's own self-interest, regardless of whatever was on the books and almost blanket-terms came at the expense of their people? "The law" has unquestionably been a tool of oppression for centuries for these peoples. And this is not ancient history with no impact on contemporary life. People are alive today, or remember family members, who were directly and negatively impacted by manipulative, self-serving, and genocidal interpretations of "the law".

You don't get to say "but they didn't follow the law!!!!!" and not understand following the law has been used explicitly as a tool of oppression against them for literally the entirety of history post-contact. To suggest otherwise is to betray an understanding of historical context that is either non-existent, broken and warped to serve particular political needs, or willfully dishonest. So yea you can sit there and act indignant and concerned about their lack of engagement with army corps all you want, and on some level completely devoid of any context, nuance, or understanding, you might be right. But you're loving wrong. They literally have no reason to trust a government that has put 200 years of history into proving that its word, its institutions, and its laws are all tools if subjugation and oppression to be used at their discretion as they deem fit.

...this article by the Smithsonian: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ulysses-grant-launched-illegal-war-plains-indians-180960787/

..and then maybe :frogout:

if you still want to talk poo poo!

How do I help?

Check out this article for a rundown:

http://www.papermag.com/how-to-support-nodapl-protestors-2072880726.html

Tias fucked around with this message at 13:13 on Dec 1, 2016

# ¿ Sep 5, 2016 13:46

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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 04:58

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

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It appears to be another bit of bullshit, though it has two websites detailing everything about the project, there are no points of origin, only long lists of backers..

# ¿ Sep 5, 2016 15:06

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Democracynow had a video crew on site, showing the use of force by corporate security forces.

# ¿ Sep 5, 2016 18:53

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moller posted:

Going by google news, yesterday the protests "turned violent." NPR quotes only the local sheriff in their story, who says the protest was more of a riot.

Only democracynow, commondreams, and something called collectiveevolution seem to be using any language other than "protest turned violent."

Well, they would. NA protestors placed themselves on their own land, and refused to budge - this is what corporate security, going on orders to secure the site for development, consider violence.

(Collective-evolution is a dumb woo site, for the love of all that's holy ignore their dumb poo poo)

E: According to the sheriff's office:

quote:

"Once protestors arrived at the construction area, they broke down a wire fence by stepping and jumping on it," the sheriff's office said. "According to numerous witnesses within five minutes the crowd of protestors, estimated to be a few hundred people became violent. They stampeded into the construction area with horses, dogs and vehicles."

Personally I think they're quite justified in driving off the workers, but YMMV.

im gay posted:

Apparently they are waiting on a federal ruling that is coming this week? Anyone know about this?

Sorry, no. Last I heard is that the protestors tried to get some sort of government interference on the case, perhaps that is it.

# ¿ Sep 6, 2016 10:03

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LiterallyTheWurst posted:

I have an old boss who runs a local history blog called the first scout. He posted a tongue in cheek entry regarding historical sites in the area of the pipeline and the ND Historical Society warned him to edit his post or risk violating state law. I'll try to find it later, but the review of the history at that construction site was rather lousy. It had no experts weighing in and was missing some pieces.

And is it just me, or has NPR's reporting on the topic been spectacularly bad?

I'm not in the US, so not really in a position to judge seeing as I haven't used NPR before. That said, it seems to be getting outrageously little coverage compared to the Oregon militia nuts.

# ¿ Sep 7, 2016 21:08

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Regarding the pipeline itself, I'm not sure. As Pellisworth says, it's such a remote location that directly participating in the blockade is impossible for most of us.

# ¿ Sep 8, 2016 07:47

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Cops allegedly showed up yesterday in armoured vehicles, threatened protestors with sniper rifles and shotguns, an estimated 21 arrests were made.

Regardless of the legal status of the pipeline, it seems to coppers are maintaining the hard line.

# ¿ Sep 29, 2016 09:58

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Facebook is blowing up with an alleged mass arrest at the site, but there are no sources to back it up. Anyone here knows what is going on?

# ¿ Oct 3, 2016 11:33

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New police fuckery this saturday:

https://theintercept.com/2016/10/25/video-police-viciously-attacked-peaceful-protestors-at-the-dakota-access-pipeline/

# ¿ Oct 26, 2016 08:33

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800peepee51doodoo posted:

This was a cool thing that happened:

https://vimeo.com/189299392

If the Buffalo Nation straight up stops the pipeline, I will officially stop thinking we don't live in the coolest universe possible :3

# ¿ Oct 30, 2016 13:30

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E: Fake news, sorry.

Tias fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Nov 2, 2016

# ¿ Oct 30, 2016 21:34

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Jack Gladney posted:

Is this facebook checkin thing something that will actually help? I don't want to bandwagon on something that will cause damage or gently caress up the public discussion.

At least for the time being, it will probably help protect the protestors and their family from police harassment. As for the "randing stock" thing, police algorithms are probably already updated to include it.

# ¿ Oct 31, 2016 17:04

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coyo7e posted:

Does anybody know what the story is with the Morton County Sheriffs announcing that dude with the AR-15 had been shot by protestors and was being treated, and then the statement was retracted a couple days later? I only came across it today although it seems as though it was all over on thursday friday.

No, but it would appear to be a lie. We have photos and video of USA veteran protestors negotiating a peaceful stand-down with him, and of his ID papers confirming his employment at one of the security contracting companies.

Pic and quick run down here:
http://theantimedia.org/dakota-access-caught-infiltrating/

E:

On a lighter note: Islander native groups have started some massive loving Hakas in support of Standing Rock:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1102073623245751/?fref=ts

# ¿ Nov 1, 2016 11:37

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I don't see any terminal retardation there, although I don't read legalese well. Seems to me they try to shitcan the tribe because of Young, who can't document her claims as well as the corporation. This does not justify the pipeline, nor the paramilitary repression of protestors.

# ¿ Nov 2, 2016 07:49

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Let me see if understand you right: They don't think a state that has murdered and poo poo on their people for hundreds of years should be allowed to build an unsafe pipeline through their land - but they should bend over and eat it anyway because said state probably said everything is going to be different this time? Yeah, good luck with that.

# ¿ Nov 2, 2016 07:56

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Gobbeldygook posted:

1. The company rerouted the pipeline 140 times in North Dakota around tribal cultural resources. They were listening to the tribes and taking action based on their concerns, but the Standing Rock Sioux decided to try to take their ball and go home.
2. There's already an oil pipeline running across the lake less than a stone's throw away from the proposed new pipeline location.

The pipeline built in 1982 didn't contaminate their water in the past 34 years. They have every reason to believe this one won't contaminate their precious bodily fluids either.

I see where you're coming from, but if they don't get approval from the tribe that actually lives on and uses the land, that's not a legitimate negotiation - and I maintain that the SR Lakota have full rights to the land - you know, like rich white people have over everywhere else and make loving stupid decisions about every day? It's theirs, they can take their ball home as much as they want to.

# ¿ Nov 2, 2016 08:09

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Funky See Funky Do posted:

OP, come on. Did you even watch this? An 11 year old girl was not gunned down by police snipers.

Yeah, my bad. I was asked to share it in a hurry, and didn't watch it, it's complete horseshit.

DeusExMachinima posted:

I wasn't just addressing that, I was also telling you that the plural of anecdote is not data and that throwing up some cherry-picked examples of pipelines gone wrong doesn't usefully tell anyone whether they're more or less dangerous than alternatives or what percentage of pipelines fail catastrophically over their lifespan. In other words, exactly what anti-nuclear types do.

Even if the oil companies were not insidious loving psychopaths( who only days ago proved their trustworthiness by trying to infiltrate a provocateur with an AR-15 into the protest camp), it still doesn't solve the question of how and why the corps and the USACoE can poo poo all over the treaty.

# ¿ Nov 2, 2016 19:16

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Dead Reckoning posted:

Sorry, which treaty is this, specifically?

That would be article 2 of the Treaty of Fort Laramie of April 29, 1868, it describes the boundaries of the Great Sioux Reservation, as commencing on the 46th parallel of north latitude to the east bank of Missouri River, south along the east bank to the Nebraska line, then west to the 104th parallel of west longitude. (15 stat. 635).

However, I have also been told that the federal government have unilaterally revoked the treaty several times, carving off culturally or logistically vital pieces of the domain( such as the Missouri river and the sacred Black Hills), so I guess you could argue that they just have the short end of the straw because uncle Sam said so.

# ¿ Nov 2, 2016 21:08

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Uglycat posted:

I've been camped at Oceti Sakowin, at Wounded Knee Kitchen on Wild Oglala Lane for about six weeks now.

https://www.facebook.com/david.guthrie this's me

Can you tell us how bad it's gotten? Every day has claims of rubber bullets and demolished camp areas, but there's no real way to tell what's happening here on the outside.

# ¿ Nov 3, 2016 09:01

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JC, 4 pages of people not understanding what "causes people to protest" :eng99:

The SR Lakota have, like all the indian nations at the site, all but wiped out by a policy of extermination by the state that now tries to ram a big gently caress-off oil pipe through their water supply. On their site may be a lot of concerned citizens, but on the other you have the USA CoE, security companies and some extremely rich people who rarely have an qualms about buying off the justice system.

We're lucky things haven't gotten uglier, and should support their cause. What do you people drink, once you're done posting? Something with water in it, and you sure as hell aren't rich enough to buy up clean water supplies once a pipeline fucks up yours.

# ¿ Nov 4, 2016 10:57

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rudatron posted:

So, how much are human lives worth, how much is the environment worth, and how much is native title worth? You have to make a tradeoff, and I think the only moral one is minimize the loss of first one, even if that maximizes damage the later two.

No one's going to disagree with that, the issue you're ignoring is that maximizing lives saved while downprioritizing native titles, can in this case leads to native lives lost maximized, because it's their water near the line. Considering the US of A always seems to pick the option that kills off the most natives, perhaps it's time for a more equitable distribution of risk among the races?

# ¿ Nov 5, 2016 11:37

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Absurd Alhazred posted:

Could this derail about whether or not the bullet was bullety enough please cease?

yes please

wateroverfire posted:

Hopefully this blows up in DNB's collective faces and the execs who pushed it end up out on their asses. They should be pushing for a resolution that gets the project done and the bank paid rather than tilting at social justice windmills.

What does it take to get infrastructure built these days?

What

Exactly how much of a poo poo do you think the venture capitalists behind the pipeline give about a bank in Norway telling them they shouldn't be soulless mammon hunters? Hitting them on the wallet is the only thing they will ever respect.

# ¿ Nov 8, 2016 11:17

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wateroverfire posted:

I'm not sure that's true, or that a liability policy is even a thing that would satisfy the protesters. If it were, Dakota Access could fund that out of petty cash.

For DNB, the execs involved are attempting to sabotage a project its investors have a stake in to no good purpose. Longer term, DNB is going to have a harder time getting in on infrastructure projects in the future for reasons that should be obvious. In a broader sense, DNB's actions - whether they succeed or not - could embolden protesters and make all sorts of projects more difficult.

Which is only a problem if you don't believe the protestors have a worthy cause.

# ¿ Nov 8, 2016 16:38

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Any truth to the claims that Trump is deeply invested in the DAP? Because if so the cause is probably in deep poo poo.

# ¿ Nov 10, 2016 11:47

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Goodpancakes posted:

DAPL has to have the pipe finished by the end of the year. It has contacts to move oil locked in at 2014 prices. If they miss the deadline they move oil at market price. Which is to say probably not at all.

In that case it's essential to keep blocking. They only understand what hits them on the wallet.

# ¿ Nov 17, 2016 09:52

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Avenging_Mikon posted:

So delay is a viable win strategy? Sweet.

I'm tempted to flow with the happiness, but with Trump invested in the pipeline and having stated that he's going to move them forward, things could get really ugly.

On the other hand, I get the impression that the presidency is pretty overwhelming for him, so let's hope he forgets to move in along the way.

# ¿ Nov 21, 2016 11:10

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Dead Reckoning posted:

If you are illegally occupying someone's land and setting fires, you don't get some kind of cold weather exception.

The federal government is not 'someone', they're occupying their own ancestral land.

Also, is it an aggravating circumstance to have built a fire if you're charged with something in America( assuming you don't build the fire with, say, someones car or public dumpsters, natch)?

Tias fucked around with this message at 12:45 on Nov 22, 2016

# ¿ Nov 22, 2016 10:06

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Dead Reckoning posted:

Which brings us back to the point that an expansive definition of "ancestral land" is an absurdity with no basis in law or precedent.

If you build a fire where you're not supposed to, the authorities can probably charge you with anything from camping without a permit to attempted arson, depending on how frisky they are feeling.

Lol, it only took you one line to claim that basis in law is important, to proving why it isn't. The people in power are feeling frisky, that's why US citizens have their arms blown up with grenades over a piece of dirt :eng101:

People with money want that pipeline built, therefore the law will be circumvented to make that happen. That's the only precedent that matters in a nation that worships wealth.

Tias fucked around with this message at 11:20 on Nov 23, 2016

# ¿ Nov 23, 2016 11:08

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Mainstream media blackout and harassment of reporters have been a mainstay of the protests since the start, so I can only point you towards what I'm reasonably sure is correct: Prior to work starting, the Environmental Protection Agency, the Department of Interior, and the Advisory Council on Historic Preservation asked the ACoE to conduct a formal Environmental Impact Assessment and issue an Environmental Impact Statement, which I assume is some kind of assessment as to whether it is acceptable to pursue construction.

However, in July, the CoE approved the water crossings using something called a "fast track option", which I don't know what is, but set the shits behind the DAP moving, siccing attack dogs and using clubs and tear gas on protestors. Since then construction has been underway in the areas protestors were removed from in September.

On November 14, the The Army Corps of Engineers said it needed more time to study the impact of the plan. In a news release they said: �The Army has determined that additional discussion and analysis are warranted in light of the history of the Great Sioux Nation�s dispossessions of lands, the importance of Lake Oahe to the Tribe, our government-to-government relationship, and the statute governing easements through government property."

While that sounds great, it doesn't seem to have actually stopped the construction. There is no "official line", only media blackout and propaganda campaigns about how the protestors are dumb and hate progress.

E: while digging the dates up, I found out the protests have a rather good, though not comprehensive, wikipedia page!

# ¿ Nov 23, 2016 12:11

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DeusExMachinima posted:

That should be interesting then. But TBH unless I see proof otherwise I'm leaning towards the malfunctioning IED explanation.

That certainly is a conclusion, but I have to say you're wrong. The protestors act only under orders from tribal elders, who have expressly forbid taking offensive violent action against the security contractors. These people stared down and disarmed a provocateur who had raised an AR-15 at them without raising their voices, if you think they would build an IED for the hell of it you're making an insane assumption, really.

Also, there seems to be consensus among people present that the screws fired concussion grenades at them, which can and did explode. I'll bet you that this is what happened.

Gobbeldygook posted:

The only permit they still need is from the Army Corps of Engineers. Contrary to the mythology of the protesters, the company is not going to be irreparably harmed if it's delayed through January. The next set of hearings is already scheduled for January 3rd, so nothing is happening until then. The protesters aren't accomplishing poo poo by wallowing in the cold except making themselves feel good because they're TAKING A STAND!

If you must persist in your passive agressive authoritarian cock gargling, could you do it outside this thread please?

# ¿ Nov 23, 2016 15:01

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Gobbeldygook posted:

I'm sorry you don't like facts in your ~safe space~.

They're not facts, you're gargling cop semen because you're literally too dumb to accept anything but authoritarian narratives. I feel sorry for you, but please, :frogout:

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ¿ Nov 23, 2016 15:08

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DeusExMachinima posted:

It's not a conclusion, it's a suspicion. I respect the elders for their non-violence but come on, it's not impossible for someone to independently decide to do things their own way.

Just shut the gently caress up. If the police used flashbangs then no, they do not have the ability to create that kind of wound. Flashbangs use a magnesium mix to achieve their effect and it can cause (potentially very serious) burn wounds. That woman's arm is a blast wound.

So because it's not a flashbang injury, you choose to believe it's an IED. Gotcha, we're done here.

wateroverfire posted:

Hmm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-uM_VWPW_w

http://www.valleynewslive.com/content/news/Propane-cylinders-recovered-at-explosion-site-of-DAPL-protest-402544435.html

Have you ever been charged with possession or use of molotov cocktails? I have. Because cops found empty wine bottles with wax candles in them. In the same building I had been in at one point. Police lying to cover their own ineptitude is the rule rather than the exception, so forgive me for not being convinced.

# ¿ Nov 23, 2016 16:59

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wateroverfire posted:

So, in your opinion, in the video I linked, what is the bright flaming thing that arcs over the bridge from the protester side and seems to explode near the cops?

Most likely an incendiary device. I fail to see why this does not make Morton PDs claim to have "received information that protesters were using one-pound propane cylinders as explosives" anything other than a steaming pile of made-up poo poo. In a media blackout environment like the one at the protest, the cops are going to manufacture intel and justification for their actions like crazy, or else they're going to break with time-honoured tradition.

# ¿ Nov 23, 2016 17:12

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So it seems MIGF has taken to drunk-spamming me with PMs - since putting him on ignore doesn't block pms, I'll have to settle for public shaming:

gently caress off, you're either dumb or a sad gimmick.

# ¿ Nov 23, 2016 22:10

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Recoome posted:

Nice to know the deployment of chemical agents on unarmed civilians is OK in your book

Yeah, it's awful how quick some people are to rationalize potentially deadly weapons against their fellow citizens. I'm willing to be he/she has never seen someone hit by a rubber bullet IRL.

# ¿ Nov 23, 2016 22:28

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double post, sry

Tias fucked around with this message at 13:53 on Nov 25, 2016

# ¿ Nov 25, 2016 13:51

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Just wanted to weigh in that I know two people who have gotten permanent damage to their lung function from CS gas - It must be said that they were fixed in place by police who tore their masks off and forced them to inhale the gas for longer than you normally would in a similar situation, but, well, cops will do that to you.

Kubrick posted:

Can we not be jerks to posters with reasonable but different opinions in the Debate & Discussion forum.

I am with you, but a molotov should not be viewed this lightly considering the damage they can do to people. Not that flashbangs and water canons are much safer, but I think it's better for the protesters to be on the side of non-violence even when violence may be used against them.

By this logic, police should always be allowed to decide for themselves whether they want to kill people who throw rocks and firebombs at them. This may make sense to people with no peacekeeping experience, but would lead to societal collapse, IMO.

Tias fucked around with this message at 13:55 on Nov 25, 2016

# ¿ Nov 25, 2016 13:53

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merry exmarx posted:

Stop turning this into a cop-thread-by-stealth

I am 100% on board with that, but I feel like it would be pretty easy for the numerous bad faith pro-DAP posters itt to sabotage the thread and close it, then. M@ttd1zzl1 has done this poo poo several times before.

# ¿ Nov 27, 2016 11:45

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blowfish posted:

That's because it's easy to just accuse your opponent of arbitrary bad things without thinking too hard about how accurate that accusation actually is. When you're really really really convinced you're right and the other guys are wrong (and also evil) it's appealing to argue badly in this way but it's still arguing in bad faith to blatantly support your team over the other guys irrespective of reality.

Yes, but it is also p bad to waffle around relativization while people are being shot and gassed by police for daring to protect their human right to clean water, which is what a lot of posters seem to be doing now.

Gobbeldygook posted:

The company did meet with the tribe, but holy poo poo

Are you always posting in bad faith, or are you really not in touch with the actual situation? This is not natives being petty or greedy, tribes who are ancestral enemies have actually cooperated at Standing Rock because not being further genocided does actually matter more than private property, regardless of what it looks like to you.

# ¿ Nov 27, 2016 21:08

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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 04:58

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

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I don't know if this source is legit, but it would appear the ACoE has decided to evict the entire protest camp sometime this or next week:

http://inhabitat.com/us-army-to-evict-dakota-access-pipeline-protestors-next-week/

gently caress the US government and their cowardice :smith:

# ¿ Nov 28, 2016 14:30

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > DAPL: coward pipe defeats water protectors

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