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45ShadesOfDeath posted:On the subject of lucha rules, specifically it meaning that someone can't be cut off in the ring, see KoT09 finals between FIST and Team Uppercut. FIST successfully cuts Danielson off from his team for a good deal of the match. More like see every modern face vs. heel CHIKARA multi-man match.
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Apr 28, 2011 17:09
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SamuraiFoochs posted:Serious question how would you book a tag match differently? This has been answered to some degree already, but my problem with the WWE tag style is that there is no high degree of competition. The faces dominate, the heels cheat to get an advantage, there's a hot tag and then there's a win. In this last step, occasionally there's a quick back-and-forth. What I like seeing in tag matches is one team dominates, the other team dominates after gaining the advantage somehow (usually underhanded means), the first team fights back, the other team has to regain the advantage (these last two steps can go on for quite a while), then quick back-and-forth-and-back until the finish. You can't do this in every match, obviously. Certainly not on free TV. But you can at least do it in the main event. But the WWE never does that. Their style of tag matches places chicanery as important an ability as athleticism or talent, which makes those athletic/talented guys look like fools and/or poo poo. but whatever that's not the wwe style so it must not be something that works or makes money
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Apr 28, 2011 17:18
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Captain Magic posted:You can't do this in every match, obviously. Certainly not on free TV. Don't tell that to Paul Heyman circa 2002.
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Apr 28, 2011 17:19
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El Duke posted:Don't tell that to Paul Heyman circa 2002. Yeah I was thinking of the Edge/Rey vs. Angle/Benoit match to decide the Smackdown titles as pretty much the pinnacle of this in the WWE. When I said you can't do it in every match, I just meant that...well, variety is important. The importance of variety is one reason why the WWE product is getting dragged through the mud lately. I love that kind of match and can watch it all day, but I understand that it's not for everybody. Unfortunately, the "Three-Ring Circus" mentality that the WWF had no longer really exists. Unless those three rings are, "Mediocre matches," "hosed Sketches," and "Scripted Promos."
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Apr 28, 2011 17:22
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No, I agree you can't do it every match and that time period really proved it. The Smackdown Six series produces amazing matches, but also, taken in context, some amazing burnout, too, and a general feeling of "why should I buy the PPV when they'll just do 2/3 falls next week on free TV?"
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Apr 28, 2011 17:29
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El Duke posted:Smackdown Six I've seen this referenced a few times now, what is it?
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Apr 28, 2011 17:31
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Dickeye posted:I've seen this referenced a few times now, what is it? Angle, Benoit, Edge, Rey Mysterio, Eddie & Chavo
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Apr 28, 2011 17:34
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Dickeye posted:I've seen this referenced a few times now, what is it? A time when six of the WWE's best wrestlers were on the same show and had a ton of emphasis put on them. Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, Edge, Chavo Guerrero, Eddie Guerrero, and Rey Mysterio are they, I'm fairly certain. I wasn't watching at the time so I can't be certain, but they put on some tremendous tag matches. Basically, Paul Heyman was booking, and the general creative direction was, "These guys over here are saying they're better than you. What are you gonna do about that?"
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Apr 28, 2011 17:35
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Basically back '04 or '05 Heyman was booking Smackdown and built much of the show around Kurt Angle/Chris Benoit, Eddie & Chavo Guerrero, and Edge/Rey Mysterio. The six of them would match up week after week in a variety of combinations and the formula was basically simple booking and letting them have great matches. Everyone loved it and they became known as "the Smackdown Six." Other guys like Brock, Shelton Benjamin, and Charlie Haas also factored in to the larger picture but they weren't in "the Six".
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Apr 28, 2011 17:36
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STAC Goat posted:Basically back '04 or '05 Heyman was booking Smackdown and built much of the show around Kurt Angle/Chris Benoit, Eddie & Chavo Guerrero, and Edge/Rey Mysterio. The six of them would match up week after week in a variety of combinations and the formula was basically simple booking and letting them have great matches. Everyone loved it and they became known as "the Smackdown Six." Other guys like Brock, Shelton Benjamin, and Charlie Haas also factored in to the larger picture but they weren't in "the Six". Things like the smackdown six show how great heyman can be, just dont give him control of the finances.
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Apr 28, 2011 17:40
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AkumaHokoru posted:Things like the smackdown six show how great heyman can be, just dont give him control of the finances. People tend to forget that the main event during this time was pretty forgettable and there were some dogshit diva angles. That said, Heyman was probably the best WWE head writer in the last 10 years and that's coming from one of his biggest critics.
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Apr 28, 2011 17:41
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Dragging Iron Feet posted:and has the dumbest sounding name for a move ever (GLIMMERING WARLOCK!).
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Apr 28, 2011 17:51
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AkumaHokoru posted:Things like the smackdown six show how great heyman can be, just dont give him control of the finances. SmackDown Six proves the best and worst of Paul Heyman. Highlight the best in-ring talent by letting them wrestle each other and put on great matches. Make titles important and something wrestlers actively are chasing. Make rivalries based on competition. But it also meant give away amazing matches on free TV both before and after the PPV. Have the TV matches be as good or better than the PPV. Burn people out on the same guys wrestling over and over again. Focus heavily on what "you" want to see. I could watch the SmackDown Six wrestle over and over again for eternity. But a lot of people couldn't, and I can understand why. It got kinda old, and the PPV in a lot of ways became just another episode of SmackDown aside from the main event. Also, to correct a few things, the SmackDown Six occured in 2002. Shelton and Haas didn't debut until early 2003, which led to a different set of guys making the tag division interesting, but not quite SmackDown Six levels. Also, the main event was pretty good for awhile during this period, being the Brock/Taker feud, then a brief Brock/Show feud followed by a brief Brock/Angle feud, Angle/Benoit renewed feud then back to Brock/Angle. These all (aside from Brock/Show, even though that provided some nice "spectacle" matches) turned out some really excellent main event matches for the brand.
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Apr 28, 2011 17:56
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El Duke posted:Don't tell that to Paul Heyman circa 2002. Or Bill Watts back in the 80s, who put main event matches on free TV a lot, figuring that fans would get so into it that they'd pay to see it again without TV time restrictions. Heyman's not a perfect booker, but if I had the choice between burnout from awesome wrestling/angles that make sense and burnout from lovely wrestling/meaningless skits, I know which one I'd pick.
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Apr 28, 2011 17:57
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CombineThresher posted:Or Bill Watts back in the 80s, who put main event matches on free TV a lot, figuring that fans would get so into it that they'd pay to see it again without TV time restrictions. Yeah, same here, like I mentioned. It's not perfect, but it's definitely better than anything we get now. A balance would be great, but at the moment we don't really get either one out of WWE. There's nothing amazing on free TV and there's also no amazing blowoff on PPV.
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Apr 28, 2011 18:01
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CombineThresher posted:Or Bill Watts back in the 80s, who put main event matches on free TV a lot, figuring that fans would get so into it that they'd pay to see it again without TV time restrictions. I'd say Heyman was doing it right. He had guys who could be main event but there wasn't room for at the time (Benoit, Angle). You had guys who weren't there yet but were going to be in a year or two (Edge, Eddie). You had a guy who at the time the company really didn't see as a main eventer (Rey) and then you had your odd man out who was a drat fine wrestler but was never going to leave the midcard (Chavo). By having these tag teams feud, you keep the wrestlers relevant and exciting without losing any interest in them. Also, fans are keen enough to understand that a singles match on TV between Kurt Angle and Edge when Angle/Benoit vs. Edge/Rey is the feud doesn't mean the same as a singles feud between Angle and Edge with both guys competing to try to eventually become number one contender. When the WWE writers put top guys like Cena in tag teams, it's not a bad idea. Where they usually blow it is that they are putting Cena in a tag team to just further his singles storyline. That's where we get the, "Top heel and face are Tag Champs? Oh no!" storylines that just hurt the division. Tag wrestling is the easiest way to fill time on television with "entertainment" that people want to see. It's also the greatest way to keep your top singles fresh and give them programs when they have no room at the top. Raw currently has too many guys darting for the top. They got a lot of heels who can't take the top spot with Miz filling it so they would be smart to get them in tag teams. Ziggler, McIntyre, Punk, Del Rio, Swagger and R-Truth are too many singles guys as upper card heels. Make Swagger and Ziggler a tag team as well as (people will hate me for this) Del Rio and R-Truth. Have them feud against Rey and Bourne and then a babyface tag team like Cena and Kofi. Suddenly you got four tag teams made up of singles guys who can go and have them feud with one another. It leaves Miz, Morrison, Punk and McIntyre for the main event. Oh, and toss Big Show/Kane somewhere to because they are the definition of upper card guys being tossed into a tag team for something to do. Voila. Now on any future card, you got some built up Raw feuds: Morrison vs. Miz Face McIntyre vs. Punk Cena/Kofi vs. R-Truth/Del Rio Rey/Bourne vs. Ziggler/Swagger Next month Face McIntyre vs. Miz Morrison vs. Punk Cena/Kofi vs. Ziggler/Swagger Rey/Bourne vs. R-Truth/Del Rio Next month Punk vs. Morrison vs. Miz Face McIntyre/Cena/Kofi vs. Otunga/McGillicutty/Ryan Rey/Bourne vs. Show/Kane And so on. Uppercard teams help keep the main event open and once you tire of a team (Say, you want Cena and Kofi back in singles) it's easy to break them up and send them back to singles where they still have oodles of heat from their tag competition. Sigh.
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Apr 28, 2011 19:20
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Lone Rogue posted:Make Swagger and Ziggler a tag team Swaggler or Swiggler? I think Swiggler. With that out of the way, I like your general idea and think it would do the company some good. Also I am in concurrence with your sigh.
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Apr 28, 2011 19:25
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Chinston Wurchill posted:Swaggler or Swiggler? I think Swiggler. I did a blog post on my never read website about how they should revive the tag division through the draft onto Smackdown and they should tag team Sheamus and McIntyre together and call them the Treaty of Violence. Unfortunately the whole idea crashed upon itself when Edge retired since the whole thing revolved upon Edge and Christian as the torch bearers of the new tag division. Now I see more potential in reviving a tag division on Raw due to the plethora of heels.
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Apr 28, 2011 19:41
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Mansion Maniac posted:So I'm watching the Extreme Rules 2010 DVD, and in the middle of the Beth Phoenix/Michelle McCool "extreme makeover" match, someone in the 4th or 5th row slowly raises a I wanna say it was Save Russian Jews but don't quote me on that.
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Apr 28, 2011 19:50
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sign.
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Anyone have the gif of that? Wasn't there another setup like this but the guy was raising a giant cena cutout?
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Apr 29, 2011 04:42
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Once upon a time, I remember reading Matt Hardy, Shane/Gregory Helms and Chris Jericho were in a cab, or something, got into a fight, the cops were called, and Matt Hardy ran away. What exactly was that all about, and how were each of those guys affected by the incident? Most of what pieces I've found online are pretty vague.
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Apr 29, 2011 05:57
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Brotoxx posted:backwards version of a move, you should clearly treat the name the same way.
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Apr 29, 2011 06:04
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Basically they were out drinking, they started heading home, there was a woman with them (I don't know if she was a friend, girlfriend, sister, cousin or whatever) and some kind of argument broke out with Helms who was pretty out of it. Helms allegedly hit the woman, the cab stopped and the police were called - because they were technically "publicly intoxicated", Helms and Jericho were both charged, while Matt Hardy allegedly ran off into the night before the police showed up. Jericho was completely unaffected by it, he actually made fun of the situation online from memory, though he failed to show up for a court hearing and had to pay an extra fine from memory. Helms got called out on it on an episode of ECW from memory, Regal came out, pointed at Helms and said he'd had a bad weekend and Helms hung his head shamefaced. Edit: From memory from memory from memory, I use that phrase a lot from memory. Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Apr 29, 2011 |
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Apr 29, 2011 06:04
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Favorite sign moment ever was at Survivor Series 2008 when Shawn Michaels was selling out to JBL. The two are standing in the ring, it is a tragic, emotional moment... and slowly, ever so slowly, 1995 Shawn rises from the crowd in cardboard cutout form between them.
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Apr 29, 2011 06:17
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Seymour Buttz posted:Aside from a physical tag, which is still used, you can ALSO tag your partner in by going to the floor. This rule is stupid and is the heat-killer to me. Why would any idiot bother trying to stretch out to his partner for a tag when he can just roll to the floor in a heap and let the fresh guy start working? If you're keeping a guy in your corner and doing the frequent tags, stomp on the guy a lot, keep him grounded etc stuff, it requires even more suspension of belief than usual to not just ask "why won't he just roll two feet, he'd be out of the ring"
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Apr 29, 2011 06:37
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The Berzerker posted:This rule is stupid and is the heat-killer to me. Why would any idiot bother trying to stretch out to his partner for a tag when he can just roll to the floor in a heap and let the fresh guy start working? They should increase the risk of going to the floor. Like piranhas.
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Apr 29, 2011 06:46
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Lone Rogue posted:They should increase the risk of going to the floor. Like piranhas. 
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Apr 29, 2011 06:57
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The Berzerker posted:This rule is stupid and is the heat-killer to me. Why would any idiot bother trying to stretch out to his partner for a tag when he can just roll to the floor in a heap and let the fresh guy start working? Actually, the easiest way to add danger to the floor would be lumberjacks, which doesn't sound like a horrible combo in theory.
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Apr 29, 2011 15:37
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The Berzerker posted:This rule is stupid and is the heat-killer to me. Why would any idiot bother trying to stretch out to his partner for a tag when he can just roll to the floor in a heap and let the fresh guy start working? So you stop the guy from rolling out. It's not that easy to just leave the ring when someone is kicking your rear end. VVV Exactly my point. If they're doing it right, there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with lucha rules. VVV Seymour Buttz fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Apr 29, 2011 |
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Apr 29, 2011 15:54
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Seymour Buttz posted:So you stop the guy from rolling out. It's not that easy to just leave the ring when someone is kicking your rear end. Wrestling is staged. It's as easy or hard as the wrestlers are willing to make it look.
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Apr 29, 2011 16:00
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It's not that much different than getting to the ropes to break up a pin or submission really.
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Apr 29, 2011 16:00
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ABOUT DRUGS posted:
See: Throwbacks vs Roughnecks to see that combo in action.
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Apr 29, 2011 17:59
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maniacripper posted:Anyone have the gif of that? No gif but: http://youtu.be/0RuD3MldJF4 4:26 I think is the best spotting of it, I skimmed the vid I stand corrected, 8:25 - after the iron board spot
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Apr 29, 2011 18:09
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I just want to say that this thread has taught me so much about wrestling over the last few weeks. Question: What's a hot tag? I hear it all the time, but I still haven't quite figured out what it means.
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Apr 29, 2011 19:08
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Dickeye posted:I just want to say that this thread has taught me so much about wrestling over the last few weeks. A hot tag is when a face has been getting beat down for a while and being actively prevented from getting to their corner. Eventually they make it and tag in the other guy who comes in "like a house of fire" and takes out everyone in a flurry of lariats.
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Apr 29, 2011 19:16
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flashy_mcflash posted:A hot tag is when a face has been getting beat down for a while and being actively prevented from getting to their corner. Eventually they make it and tag in the other guy who comes in "like a house of fire" and takes out everyone in a flurry of lariats. Gotcha. I thought it was like an actual technical thing and not just a euphemism for "the faces come back to win". Follow-up, unrelated question: What's the real story about Hogan slamming Andre in front of seventeen million fans?
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Apr 29, 2011 19:23
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Dickeye posted:Follow-up, unrelated question: What's the real story about Hogan slamming Andre in front of seventeen million fans? Well, there were fuckload more people than that. Andre was, at this point, probably over 10 feet tall and a half-ton or more in weight. Hulkster pressed him overhead (tearing his entire left side in the process) and threw him to the mat, before crushing Andre's larynx with the Big Leg. This was all a shoot, as Andre was refusing to cooperate with Hulk, and Hogan, a former shooter in his New Japan days, had to take care of business the hard way. At least that's the way I always heard it.
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Apr 29, 2011 19:46
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Dickeye posted:Gotcha. I thought it was like an actual technical thing and not just a euphemism for "the faces come back to win". It's the WrestleMania 3 match. He did a sloppy scoop slam on Andre in front of no more than 93k, let's guess maybe a couple million pairs of eyes on PPV. He exaggerates the story every time he tells it with various bits of BS, like being scared Andre would go into business for himself and shoot on him.
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Apr 29, 2011 19:48
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[quote="Strenuous Manflurry "] Andre was, at this point, probably over 10 feet tall and a half-ton or more in weight. Hulkster pressed him overhead (tearing his entire left side in the process) and threw him to the mat, before crushing Andre's larynx with the Big Leg. This was all a shoot, as Andre was refusing to cooperate with Hulk, and Hogan, a former shooter in his New Japan days, had to take care of business the hard way. At least that's the way I always heard it. [/quote] That was the day that the 'torch was passed' and never again was it passed. Not to The Ultimate Warrior. Not to The Rock. Not to Sean Michaels. Hogan forevermore became known as the Suntanned Superman, the Keeper of The Flame. It caused his skin to forever shimmer orange. And Lo the responsibility of The Torch would affect Hogan's mind just like The Ring affected Golumn before Hogan. And how could it not? For Hogan had an obligation to the business. An obligation not to let The Torch fall into the heat seeking hands of Vanilla Midgets who couldn't sell out a flea circus [Kidman] or pussies who had saved their money and retired with their health intact [Edge] instead of soldering on and living their lives frozen and immortalized in time like Han Solo in carbonite. The End.
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Apr 29, 2011 19:55
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Gaz-L posted:It's the WrestleMania 3 match. He did a sloppy scoop slam on Andre in front of no more than 93k, let's guess maybe a couple million pairs of eyes on PPV. He exaggerates the story every time he tells it with various bits of BS, like being scared Andre would go into business for himself and shoot on him. I guess the rumour was that Hogan pissed off Andre like a month before the match and Andre made a comment about, "Things don't have to go the way they are supposed to go, boss" and it cleaned Hogan's ego right up. For a little while. Actually, if you think about it, Hogan kept in line until Andre retired. Though that's not really fair to say. Vince loved to gently caress with Hogan since Hogan was the only one with power. That's what I got out of the Hogan/Vince/Bret thing. Vince would claim Hogan was doing things, Hogan would claim Vince was doing things and the truth was somewhere in the middle. Also, I still think everyone messes up the actual quote to the Hogan/Edge thing. Hogan was complimenting Edge for soldering on after his neck fusion and everyone thought he was dissing him for retiring. Hogan's a piece of poo poo but I think people are misquoting that one.
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Apr 29, 2011 19:58
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