The Toyobaru thread: We got the car we asked for, and WE'RE ALL ANGRY ABOUT IT

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Automotive Insanity > The Toyobaru thread: We got the car we asked for, and WE'RE ALL ANGRY ABOUT IT

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mobby_6kl: Aug 9, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

Cat Terrist posted:

You have a very odd definition of loving huge, esp given the BRZ isont all that much biggier than a S12C RX7 - and that aint huge in the slightest

Guys, I might have not been completely serious and/or was using hyperbole there, even if when compared to the Miata the Toyobaru is actually significantly larger :downs:

# ? Mar 20, 2012 14:15

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# ? May 15, 2024 21:55

beatdown: Mar 6, 2007

Its stupid that we've come to this, but my local SCCA club has no problem using your last initial for results instead of your full name if you ask. Remove your plate too if you are really paranoid.

# ? Mar 20, 2012 15:19

Muffinpox: Sep 7, 2004

Lazor posted:

This isn't rumor it's true. I just had my Subaru warranty denied because they found my name in some rallycross results online. My local SCCA autox club makes the event results non searchable but the rallycross results were out there and they found them.

I'm going to sign up a WRX for one under 'John Smith' and gently caress over thousands of people.

# ? Mar 20, 2012 15:24

InitialDave: Jun 14, 2007; I Want To Believe.

I think you meant to say "Name of my dealer's service manager".

# ? Mar 20, 2012 18:12

Brigdh: Nov 23, 2007; That's not an oil leak. That's the automatic oil change and chassis protection feature.

Didn't some high end manufacturer like Audi recently start refusing warranty service if the onboard computer registered speeds in excess of 100 mph or other things indicative of having been on a track?

# ? Mar 20, 2012 18:17

Splizwarf: Jun 15, 2007; It's like there's a soup can in front of me!

Sounds like Audi's trying to say "If you want warranty service, please do rallycross instead."

Well, if you insist. :3:

# ? Mar 20, 2012 18:21

InitialDave: Jun 14, 2007; I Want To Believe.

I can't think of anything any car could log that would indicate track use unless it had some kind of GPS tracker and you knew the coordinates of every track in the country.

# ? Mar 20, 2012 18:22

Splizwarf: Jun 15, 2007; It's like there's a soup can in front of me!

InitialDave posted:

I can't think of anything any car could log that would indicate track use unless it had some kind of GPS tracker and you knew the coordinates of every track in the country.

And alley, parking lot, and thoroughfare. And open space of dirt.

Maybe a dash cam that just continually phoned home with a couple frames.

# ? Mar 20, 2012 18:25

Brigdh: Nov 23, 2007; That's not an oil leak. That's the automatic oil change and chassis protection feature.

InitialDave posted:

I can't think of anything any car could log that would indicate track use unless it had some kind of GPS tracker and you knew the coordinates of every track in the country.

GForce (accelerometer) and speed off of the speedo sensor. Not 100% accurate, but if you set appropriate limits, they'll only be exceeded on a track or if the car is totaled

# ? Mar 20, 2012 18:28

Previa_fun: Nov 10, 2004

InitialDave posted:

I can't think of anything any car could log that would indicate track use unless it had some kind of GPS tracker and you knew the coordinates of every track in the country.

Isn't that exactly what the Japanese spec GTR does? If I recall, the car is speed limited until the GPS realizes you're at a track, then it allows the car up to full speed.

# ? Mar 20, 2012 18:33

Splizwarf: Jun 15, 2007; It's like there's a soup can in front of me!

Brigdh posted:

GForce (accelerometer) and speed off of the speedo sensor. Not 100% accurate, but if you set appropriate limits, they'll only be exceeded on a track or if the car is totaled

Nope, because you could just be screwing around at an airport or on a private road. If they're going to use those inputs then they should just publish speed and lateral-G numbers beyond which the warranty is voided.

# ? Mar 20, 2012 18:35

Elephanthead: Sep 11, 2008; Toilet Rascal

I am glad I am too poor to afford cars with warranties. I can hoon whenever and wherever I want. Why are these cars breaking anyway. A proper hoon machine doesn't disintegrate from a little fuel and air intake.

# ? Mar 20, 2012 18:42

InitialDave: Jun 14, 2007; I Want To Believe.

Brigdh posted:

GForce (accelerometer) and speed off of the speedo sensor. Not 100% accurate, but if you set appropriate limits, they'll only be exceeded on a track or if the car is totaled

Not really. You can use a car's full acceleration, braking and cornering capacity on the road, and peak speeds are between you and the local constabulary, not the manufacturer.

I'm not saying they can't/wouldn't do it, but for them to say "0.9g? 100mph? You've been tracking your car, sir" is ridiculous.

Then again, mentioning the GT-R, they did get rather :qq:

when people found out they hadn't made the gearbox strong enough...

# ? Mar 20, 2012 18:56

Brigdh: Nov 23, 2007; That's not an oil leak. That's the automatic oil change and chassis protection feature.

Splizwarf posted:

Nope, because you could just be screwing around at an airport or on a private road. If they're going to use those inputs then they should just publish speed and lateral-G numbers beyond which the warranty is voided.

True, whats why I said not 100% accurate, you could with proper tuning get it maybe 90% accurate. Besides, I don't think its "you went to a track so we are voiding the warranty", I think its "you exceeded the normal usecase thus we are voiding your warranty" I agree, those values should be published. Besides, the entire idea could be illegal based on the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.

My points are: an automaker doesn't need to go hunting around the internet to "determine" if you've been using the vehicle outside of what they'd like, and that I remember seeing distinct news reports that an automaker already was doing this.

# ? Mar 20, 2012 19:00

OXBALLS DOT COM: Sep 11, 2005; by FactsAreUseless; Young Orc

I look forward to the day when cars have EULAs you have to e-sign before starting the engine. Already we're having a push at a federal level to require black boxes on cars, and Progressive Insurance has that (currently voluntary) program where you install an OBD based tracker which records speed, time of day, and mileage, which are later collected and used to calculate your insurance rates.

I'm not getting all :tinfoil:

, since most of this is going to be used for cost-cutting by large corporations and insurance companies and not an evil government or something like that, but the issues remain since, just like weird EULA terms prohibiting certain uses or agreeing to arbitration in some weird venue like Switzerland or something, the normal consumer has very little power when "asked" to do something by manufacturers or other large companies.

The only protection here is legislation, some of which already exists, covering your property rights over cars you purchase. For instance, although the physical car itself is clearly your property, I could see a legal argument being made about all the software in a modern car, which as intellectual property is not owned by you but instead licensed to you by the owner on license terms which could bar or limit the uses of that software, as is done already with other forms of software. Without a right to use that software, of course, you're left with a car that doesn't work. And that doesn't even get into stuff like warranties or insurance.

Here's a fake example:

quote:

TOYOTA AUTOMOTIVE SYSTEM SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT (Version 1.1)

PLEASE READ THIS TOYOTA AUTOMOTIVE SYSTEM SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT (�AGREEMENT�) CAREFULLY TO UNDERSTAND YOUR RIGHTS AND OBLIGATIONS.

THIS AGREEMENT IS BETWEEN YOU AND TOYOTA MOTOR NORTH AMERICA (�TOYOTA�). ACCESS TO OR USE OF THE SYSTEM SOFTWARE IN TOYOTA'S AUTOMOBILE ELECTRONIC CONTROL UNIT COMPUTER SYSTEM ("ECU") IS EXPRESSLY CONDITIONED UPON ACCEPTANCE OF THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT. BY USING YOUR TOYOTA ECU, YOU REPRESENT THAT YOU ARE CAPABLE OF ENTERING INTO A CONTRACT UNDER THE LAWS OF YOUR JURISDICTION AND AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THIS AGREEMENT�S TERMS.

This Agreement applies to any system software and firmware included in the TOYOTA ECU and any patches, updates, upgrades or new versions of that system software and firmware provided to or made available for your TOYOTA ECU through any TOYOTA service or online network, TOYOTA website or TOYOTA dealership. All software and firmware described in this paragraph is referred to collectively as �System Software�.

NOTE: IF YOU ARE A UNITED STATES RESIDENT OR A RESIDENT OF A COUNTRY IN NORTH, CENTRAL OR SOUTH AMERICA, TO THE FULLEST EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, THIS AGREEMENT CONTAINS A BINDING INDIVIDUAL ARBITRATION AND CLASS ACTION WAIVER PROVISION IN SECTION 8 THAT AFFECTS YOUR RIGHTS UNDER THIS AGREEMENT AND WITH RESPECT TO ANY �DISPUTE� (AS DEFINED IN SECTION 8) BETWEEN YOU AND A �TOYOTA ENTITY� (AS DEFINED IN SECTION 8). YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO OPT OUT OF THE BINDING ARBITRATION AND CLASS ACTION WAIVER PROVISIONS AS DESCRIBED IN SECTION 8.

1. LICENSE GRANT

Subject to this Agreement�s terms, TOYOTA grants you a non-exclusive, non-commercial right to use System Software solely on your TOYOTA ECU. Your rights to use previous versions of System Software other than the current version of System Software terminates as soon as you can receive or have the most current version of System Software installed on your TOYOTA ECU.

All rights to use System Software are granted by license only, and you are not granted any ownership rights or interests in System Software. TOYOTA and its licensors retain all intellectual property rights in System Software. All use of or access to System Software is subject to this Agreement�s terms and applicable intellectual property laws. Except as this Agreement expressly grants, TOYOTA and its licensors reserve all rights in System Software.

2. VIOLATION OF AGREEMENT; TERMINATION OF RIGHTS AND TOYOTA REMEDIES

If TOYOTA determines that you have violated this Agreement�s terms, TOYOTA may itself or may procure the taking of any action to protect its interests such as disabling access to or use of some or all System Software, denial of any warranty, repair or other services provided for your TOYOTA ECU, implementation of upgrades or devices intended to discontinue unauthorized use, or reliance on any other remedial efforts as reasonably necessary to prevent the use of modified or unpermitted use of System Software.

TOYOTA, its affiliates and licensors reserve the right to bring legal action in the event of a violation of this Agreement. TOYOTA may participate in governmental or private legal action or investigation relating to your use of System Software.

I'm basing this on a pretty standard, boilerplate firmware EULA for consumer electronics. The above isn't real in any way, but I bet something like it already exists and possibly is coming for cars as well.

OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Mar 20, 2012

# ? Mar 20, 2012 19:18

oRenj9: Aug 3, 2004; Who loves oRenj soda?!?; College Slice

I believe that Toyota recently tried to get a ruling forcing all all owners who experience, "unintended acceleration", to go through an arbitration process in lieu of court. I wouldn't be surprised if more and more automakers trying pulling something similar when it comes to warranty and recalls in order to cut costs some more.

# ? Mar 20, 2012 20:05

Lazor: Sep 9, 2004

Bovril Delight posted:

Your dealer can't void a warranty. They can simply decline warranty service, which means you find another dealer. The actual process of voiding a warranty can only come from the vehicle manufacturer and even then is only for specific items.

It wasn't the dealer, it was the SOA rep that gave them a "file" with the internet detective work. This is already engine #3 for the car so I'm using this as an opportunity to take it to a proper shop and get it fixed right.

# ? Mar 21, 2012 04:36

ROFLBOT: Apr 1, 2005

Cream_Filling posted:

I look forward to the day when cars have EULAs you have to e-sign before starting the engine. Already we're having a push at a federal level to require black boxes on cars, and Progressive Insurance has that (currently voluntary) program where you install an OBD based tracker which records speed, time of day, and mileage, which are later collected and used to calculate your insurance rates.

From the BRZ manual posted earlier

quote:

Event data recorder
This vehicle is equipped with an event data recorder (EDR). The main purpose
of an EDR is to record, in certain crash or near crash-like situations,
such as an air bag deployment or hitting a road obstacle, data that will assist
in understanding how a vehicle�s systems performed. The EDR is designed
to record data related to vehicle dynamics and safety systems for a short
period of time, typically 30 seconds or less.
The EDR in this vehicle is designed to record such data as:
� How various systems in your vehicle were operating;
� Whether or not the driver and passenger safety belts were buckled/fastened;
� How far (if at all) the driver was depressing the accelerator and/or brake
pedal; and,
� How fast the vehicle was traveling.
These data can help provide a better understanding of the circumstances in
which crashes and injuries occur.
NOTE: EDR data are recorded by your vehicle only if a non-trivial crash situation
occurs; no data are recorded by the EDR under normal driving conditions
and no personal data (e.g., name, gender, age, and crash location) are
recorded. However, other parties, such as law enforcement, could combine
the EDR data with the type of personally identifying data routinely acquired
during a crash investigation.
To read data recorded by an EDR, special equipment is required, and access
to the vehicle or the EDR is needed. In addition to the vehicle manufacturer,
other parties, such as law enforcement, that have the special equipment, can
read the information if they have access to the vehicle or the EDR.
● Disclosure of the EDR data
SUBARU will not disclose the data recorded in an EDR to a third party
except when:
� An agreement from the vehicle�s owner (or the lessee for a leased vehicle)
is obtained
� In response to an official request by the police, a court of law or a government
agency
� For use by SUBARU in a law suit
However, if necessary, SUBARU may:
� Use the data for research on vehicle safety performance
� Disclose the data to a third party for research purposes without disclosing
information about the specific vehicle or vehicle owner

# ? Mar 21, 2012 06:42

japtor: Oct 28, 2005

That was quick :v:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE0WGpIFSlI

# ? Mar 21, 2012 08:04

Rabble: Dec 3, 2005; Pillbug

The problem with this video is that he stops his rotation and then just rolls into the wall, he wasn't even going that fast. A quick application of the brakes would have prevented this from even happening. Unless he somehow lost control of the car from a technical standpoint, if that's the case then Toyota has problems when these things hit market.

If you just can't wait to get in on the driftuuu action kids.woot.com has the solution for you today! Though I'd rather get it in world rally blue.

# ? Mar 21, 2012 14:06

Isizzlehorn: Feb 25, 2010

japtor posted:

That was quick
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE0WGpIFSlI

Welcome to two weeks ago. Still not a legitimate crash. I've re-glued my bumpers back together from worse impacts.

# ? Mar 21, 2012 19:07

davebo: Nov 15, 2006; Parallel lines do meet, but they do it incognito; College Slice

So the official EPA ratings are out and it's 25/34 mpg for the 6-speed auto and 22/30 for the manual. That's quite a gap between the two. The auto is impressive but for it's weight and power I would have expected pretty similar numbers for the manual. Is the final drive ratio very different between the two or something? Just a high-revving engine that the auto doesn't really stress out in the EPA's tests?

# ? Mar 21, 2012 21:37

zorch: Nov 28, 2006

FR-S prices have been announced, $24,200 for manual and $25,300 for automatic.

quote:

To: All Scion Dealers March 20, 2012

Subject: 2013MY Scion FR-S Price Announcement

Scion is pleased to announce the starting price of $24,200 for the highly awaited 2013MY Scion.

FR-S which will arrive at Scion dealerships in June. Even with DPH, the starting price is still under $25,000!

2013MY Scion FR-S Highlights:
This high performance sports car is the fifth model to join the Scion family. Inspired by the
Toyota AE86, FR-S is designed around the core goal of achieving, �Pure Balance.� This
balance begins with the use of the world�s only front-engine, rear-wheel drive configuration
using a flat boxer engine.
Some of the great standard features on FR-S include:
� 2.0 liter, 200 horsepower, naturally aspirated four-cylinder boxer engine
� Toyota�s cutting edge D-4S injection system with direct and port
injection
� 6-speed manual transmission that offers quick precise shifts with a short
throw
� 6-speed automatic transmission with rev-match and steering-wheel
mounted paddle shifters
� Torque Sensing Limited Slip Differential
� 17-inch alloy wheels and ventilated disc brakes
FR-S�s interior ****pit instantly exudes a �sports car� feel. The front sports seats are shaped to
accommodate manual shifting and support longitudinal and lateral G-force. The leather
wrapped 3-spoke sports steering wheel, utilizes the smallest diameter in the Scion lineup.
The idea of �Pure Balance� is further realized by FR-S�s lightweight design and compact size.
This allows the car to be quick and nimble into and out of corners. This combination is further
proof that Scion is truly �Bringing the Sport Back to the Car.�
The FR-S will be available in seven colors including Raven, Asphalt, Hot Lava, Argento,
Ultramarine, Firestorm and Whiteout.

Pricing Summary Documents:
MSRP for the FR-S six-speed manual and six-speed sequential automatic transmissions are $24,200 and $25,300 respectively.

Model Transmission Description 2013 Base
MSRP
6253 6MT FA20 $24,200
6252 6AT FA20 $25,300

All prices listed above exclude the Delivery, Processing, and Handling (DPH) fee
Pricing will be announced to the public on Thursday, March 22, 2012. Please keep this
information confidential until Thursday, March 22, 2012. Pricing details will be available in
the Scion FR-S Price Guides posted in the �Secure Area� for Dealer Principals on Dealer Daily.
Please contact your Regional Office or local administrator if you have any questions.

Also, here's a video of the FR-S on Laguna Seca:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGso9oKcYtM

zorch fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Mar 21, 2012

# ? Mar 21, 2012 21:39

Dave Inc.: Nov 26, 2007; Let's have a drink!

teehee cockpit

# ? Mar 21, 2012 21:40

Splizwarf: Jun 15, 2007; It's like there's a soup can in front of me!

Finally, and affordable to boot! Thanks for the heads-up. :hfive:

# ? Mar 21, 2012 21:42

Guinness: Sep 15, 2004

Hot drat, under 25k to start. Any idea what the Limited (or whatever the Scion equivalent is) package costs?

# ? Mar 21, 2012 21:48

zorch: Nov 28, 2006

Guinness posted:

Hot drat, under 25k to start. Any idea what the Limited (or whatever the Scion equivalent is) package costs?

That was for the Scion FR-S, not the BRZ. BRZ prices haven't been announced yet.

I guess it really comes down to how Subaru and Toyota are planning on cooperating. As the BRZ Premium has HID lights and navigation, if it's priced too closely to the FR-S it will cannibalize sales. I'm hoping the BRZ Premium will come out somewhere in the mid 25's and the Limited will be around 27.

# ? Mar 21, 2012 21:51

CAT INTERCEPTOR: Nov 9, 2004; Basically a male Margaret Thatcher

emoltra posted:

FR-S prices have been announced, $24,200 for manual and $25,300 for automatic.

I soooo wish that would be the price here

Mid 30K is looking likely now

# ? Mar 21, 2012 23:55

KYOON GRIFFEY JR: Apr 12, 2010; Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

davebo posted:

So the official EPA ratings are out and it's 25/34 mpg for the 6-speed auto and 22/30 for the manual. That's quite a gap between the two. The auto is impressive but for it's weight and power I would have expected pretty similar numbers for the manual. Is the final drive ratio very different between the two or something? Just a high-revving engine that the auto doesn't really stress out in the EPA's tests?

maybe your last point but also the ECU calibration is completely different for the two transmissions. You can do way trickier ECU things if you also have electronic control over the transmission.

# ? Mar 21, 2012 23:58

fknlo: Jul 6, 2009; Fun Shoe

That's probably going to put the Subaru into a price range where I won't feel it's worth it.

# ? Mar 22, 2012 00:02

TheFonz: Aug 3, 2002; <3

I put a fully refundable deposit for an FR-S and now I'm having some super remorse. I'm looking at used 370Zs for a bit more. Help! :jiggled:

Also gen coupes and the 135i.

Edit: Mustang GT. I'm becoming ultimateforce.

TheFonz fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Mar 22, 2012

# ? Mar 22, 2012 00:07

Belldandy: Sep 11, 2001; Do not try to boost in peace, because that is impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth, there is no boost.

If you buy any other car but the Mustang GT you are doing it wrong.

# ? Mar 22, 2012 00:19

The Big Jesus: Oct 29, 2007; #essereFerrari

TheFonz posted:

I put a fully refundable deposit for an FR-S and now I'm having some super remorse. I'm looking at used 370Zs for a bit more. Help!

Also gen coupes and the 135i.

Edit: Mustang GT. I'm becoming ultimateforce.

Just... get your deposit back?

# ? Mar 22, 2012 00:19

TheFonz: Aug 3, 2002; <3

I want to keep it in until I make a decision. I can get it back even after the car arrives mid June. I'll probably go with the FR-S. There are just so many options.

# ? Mar 22, 2012 00:34

Ether Frenzy: Dec 22, 2006; Nap Ghost

TheFonz posted:

I put a fully refundable deposit for an FR-S and now I'm having some super remorse. I'm looking at used 370Zs for a bit more. Help!

Also gen coupes and the 135i.

Edit: Mustang GT. I'm becoming ultimateforce.

Have you driven any of them yet? Because I'm in the same boat minus the deposit and the remorse.

# ? Mar 22, 2012 00:54

The Prong Song: Sep 7, 2002; WHITE
DRIVES
MATTER

TheFonz posted:

I put a fully refundable deposit for an FR-S and now I'm having some super remorse. I'm looking at used 370Zs for a bit more. Help!

Also gen coupes and the 135i.

Edit: Mustang GT. I'm becoming ultimateforce.

I ended up buying a Porsche Cayman because of the way Toyota/Subaru was fiddling us with not announcing the pricing. Just throwin' that in there.

# ? Mar 22, 2012 00:59

TheFonz: Aug 3, 2002; <3

I saw your post in the PYF thread. I'm going to not add that to the list.

Ether: Welcome to my next few Saturdays.

# ? Mar 22, 2012 01:00

Jay-Zeus: Jan 5, 2004; I don't believe it!; Fun Shoe

Too bad prices are jumping up here in Canada for a Mustang GT - I optioned one 2013 out and it came to 58K after taxes (mostly due to a high HST). Unfortunately I don't think the Scion will be much less than 30K starting... which leads me to believe the Subaru variant will be around mid 30s. Still greatly interested in this car and hope it turns out good for the price (hard to do up here).

# ? Mar 22, 2012 02:02

ROFLBOT: Apr 1, 2005

Cat Terrist posted:

I soooo wish that would be the price here

Mid 30K is looking likely now

I dont think it was ever going to be any less than that TBH

As long as its under 40k....

# ? Mar 22, 2012 02:06

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# ? May 15, 2024 21:55

CAT INTERCEPTOR: Nov 9, 2004; Basically a male Margaret Thatcher

ROFLBOT posted:

I dont think it was ever going to be any less than that TBH

As long as its under 40k....

I cant see it being more than the WRX which is at 39,9990.

# ? Mar 22, 2012 02:36

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Automotive Insanity > The Toyobaru thread: We got the car we asked for, and WE'RE ALL ANGRY ABOUT IT

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