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I'd say that most of the weight would be from the folding hardtop and requisite chassis strengthening.
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Apr 8, 2012 17:05
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How soon until forlorn Breezes with stretched out leather seats start showing up at Mustang V6 dealers because they're probably a bad daily driver, despite the glowing sponsored racetrack reviews? Just look at all the RX8's showing up at Billy Bob's KIA/Ford. Toyota you fools, 6 cupholders in the FRS wasn't enough for the U.S. market. I eagerly anticipate the 2014 FRS, based on xB architecture.
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Apr 8, 2012 17:07
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I have a deposit down on a BRZ Limited w/ AT to be my next daily driver, but am starting to have niggling little doubts about the value for money (the price reveal wasn't a surprise or disappointment to me). A few other goons suggest I look harder at the used market; I'm going to drive a 370Z today and maybe a G37 and Gencoupe later. If I give up on the AT idea I'll throw in a WRX and an S2k. The pay out the nose in depreciation vs. pay out the nose in gas decision is a hard one.
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Apr 8, 2012 17:07
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blk posted:I have a deposit down on a BRZ Limited w/ AT to be my next daily driver, but am starting to have niggling little doubts about the value for money (the price reveal wasn't a surprise or disappointment to me). A few other goons suggest I look harder at the used market; I'm going to drive a 370Z today and maybe a G37 and Gencoupe later. If I give up on the AT idea I'll throw in a WRX and an S2k. Would this supplement another car? I can't see roadsters like 370Z or S2K being good as a sole vehicle. Not telling you what to do with your money but you're making a pretty big assumption that the BRZ is good all the time/every day. Then again I'm from a part of the world where we just had some snowfall (today), so my perception of a daily driver varies considerably! DD means groceries, potholes and commuting in all weather to me and buying one without testing driving doesn't appeal to me. Ahh, to live in a place where a DD can be a sports car... Another, thing is that I'm now curious to test drive the BRZ in automatic to see how the engine matches the car. I drove a altima coupe yesterday with the I4 and it was painfully slow. It's got about 400 lbs up and 25 HP down from the BRZ, though. 200 HP for a standard in a small car is plenty for me, I think, having a blast in a Mazda2. Or maybe it all comes down to (personnel preference) low-end torque and not peak HP...? Sorry, just trying to characterize what I'm looking for in cars. One of the dealerships asked me to not come back until I figured out what I wanted - after I wanted to test drive a Fiat back-to-back with a Ram.
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Apr 8, 2012 17:47
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mattdizzleZ28 posted:Im comparing it to older cars obviously. And ideally we relax crash/safety regulations to allow for a simpler car. (my daily driver weighs 2300 pounds and i really want to strip poo poo off it it, but florida is hot and i need A/C) Even then, it's still pretty good compared to similar cars in history. Most of those ultra-light cars also had much, much smaller engines. pre:Car Weight (lbs) 2001 Acura Integra Type-R 2639 2013 Subaru BRZ 2690 1995 Nissan 240SX 2765 1999 Toyota MR2 Turbo (MkII) 2789 2006 Acura RSX 2790 1994 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST 2790 1996 Ford Escort RS Cosworth 2810 1988 Mazda RX-7 Turbo (FC) 2850 2009 Honda S2000 2864 1990 BMW M3 (E30) 2865 1978 Datsun 280Z 2875 2012 Honda Civic Si Coupe w/nav 2897 1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS-T 2921 2002 Acura NSX 2950 2012 Porsche Cayman 2954 1985 Toyota Celica Supra (Mk.II)3000 1996 Nissan 300ZX na t-top 3186 1992 Toyota Supra (Mk.III) 3389 OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Apr 8, 2012 |
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Apr 8, 2012 17:48
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The 1st gen MR2 weighed nothing and had around 120hp, 145hp with the supercharger. The second gen turbo had 200hp and came in at around 2700, very similar to the BRZ.
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Apr 8, 2012 17:58
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Jay-Zeus posted:Would this supplement another car? I can't see roadsters like 370Z or S2K being good as a sole vehicle. Not telling you what to do with your money but you're making a pretty big assumption that the BRZ is good all the time/every day. Yeah, the ladyfriend has a Civic sedan. We're about 4-5 years away from kids, although I'd want to keep whatever I choose into the family era. I'm wondering if I'm kidding myself that I could realistically shove a car seat in the back of the BRZ. I live (so far) where it only snows a few days a year and am OK with RWD in such situations if I have the right tires. I'm curious how the AT will match as well, but I'm sure it will be sufficient. I don't do any track activities, I just want a non-German car that handles really well and is fast enough to make quick decisions in. Bonus if it can carry a bike. I wish the Veloster Turbo and Focus ST were on the market now, although the latter will probably be out of my price range. blk fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Apr 8, 2012 |
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Apr 8, 2012 17:59
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blk posted:I'm wondering if I'm kidding myself that I could realistically shove a car seat in the back of the BRZ. Perhaps if you put the kid behind the passenger's seat and slide the passenger's seat all the way forward, but if you have more than one child that will be difficult.
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Apr 8, 2012 18:38
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blk posted:Yeah, the ladyfriend has a Civic sedan. We're about 4-5 years away from kids, although I'd want to keep whatever I choose into the family era. I'm wondering if I'm kidding myself that I could realistically shove a car seat in the back of the BRZ. I live (so far) where it only snows a few days a year and am OK with RWD in such situations if I have the right tires. I'm curious how the AT will match as well, but I'm sure it will be sufficient. I don't do any track activities, I just want a non-German car that handles really well and is fast enough to make quick decisions in. Bonus if it can carry a bike. I once saw someone fit a car seat into the back of a Genesis Coupe and it baaaarely fit there, so considering this car is much smaller, possibly not unless you put it rear-facing in the front seat (is this kosher?). I have heard in reviews that the AT on this car is really good, though. Otherwise, dunno, in this price range for sporty cars there's definitely plenty of upsizing choices. The typical larger American pony cars - Mustang, Camaro, Challenger, etc., are definitely much larger inside. Or else a WRX hatch, which has four doors but is still pretty sporty, as well as the various FWD hot hatches like the Mazdaspeed 3, etc., which are also more practical. I guess just make it so whoever has the kids has to drive the Civic.
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Apr 8, 2012 18:39
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blk posted:I wish the Veloster Turbo and Focus ST were on the market now, although the latter will probably be out of my price range. Also, the ST is out in Q3 of this year. Do you imperatively need a car?
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Apr 8, 2012 18:40
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Jay-Zeus posted:Then again I'm from a part of the world where we just had some snowfall (today), so my perception of a daily driver varies considerably! DD means groceries, potholes and commuting in all weather to me and buying one without testing driving doesn't appeal to me. Ahh, to live in a place where a DD can be a sports car... Huh? I daily drive a miata, and it's my only vehicle. I live in Canada, and took it to the ski hill almost every weekend. Get a good set of winter tires, drive carefully, and you'll be fine.
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Apr 8, 2012 20:03
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TrueChaos posted:Get a good set of winter tires, learn to countersteer, and you'll be fine. Fixed. 
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Apr 8, 2012 20:08
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InitialDave posted:I be fair, that's the leather option with heating. And yeah, they can't seem to make up their mind what engine it has. Yes you're right, I saw heated & glossed over the rest. I'm honestly never a fan of leather seats but Heated are almost a must. The Touch&go nav system is honestly alright but I think the only extra I'd pay for is pearl white.
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Apr 8, 2012 20:28
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Ziploc posted:Fixed. I thought that was part of driving carefully in the snow. 
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Apr 8, 2012 20:28
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mattdizzleZ28 posted:Im comparing it to older cars obviously. What older cars? 'Cause most older sports cars are not the magical super-light pixies you seem to think they are. Some are light. Some are heavy. You can't just pick-and-choose the light ones and then pretend that's how all old sports cars were.
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Apr 8, 2012 20:38
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Bovril Delight posted:The 1st gen MR2 weighed nothing and had around 120hp, 145hp with the supercharger. The second gen turbo had 200hp and came in at around 2700, very similar to the BRZ. For reference I have one of these and I weighed it at 1140kg/2508lb at the truck scales near my house (with supercharger and glass t tops, stock street kit with jack and spare tire etc.) Mantle fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Apr 8, 2012 |
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Apr 8, 2012 20:45
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Cream_Filling posted:Even then, it's still pretty good compared to similar cars in history. Most of those ultra-light cars also had much, much smaller engines.
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Apr 8, 2012 20:54
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Faceless Clock posted:What older cars? If you narrow it down to "cars with ~200 hp," the weights go way up. I mean, yes, a modern engine would put out more hp in that chassis for an equivalent weight, but that super-light 70s or 80s chassis will most likely also crush you like a bug if you ever get in an accident.
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Apr 8, 2012 20:55
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InitialDave posted:I don't know about the others, but that E30 M3 weight doesn't sound right, they're a couple of hundred pounds less than that. Dunno, that's what the manufacturer says the regular US market M3 did. There were lighter versions out there, too. For instance, the M3 Sport Evolutione weighed in at 2809 lbs, and true racing versions below that. But either way it's in that ballpark. Bog-standard E30s clock in at the 2300-3000 lbs range, so it sounds about right to me considering it's a largish 4 cylinder with DOHC. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Apr 8, 2012 |
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Apr 8, 2012 21:00
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The figure I've always seen is 1200kg dead, which would be 2640lbs, maybe that's without the US-spec options.
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Apr 8, 2012 21:11
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MATLAB 1988 posted:How soon until forlorn Breezes with stretched out leather seats start showing up at Mustang V6 dealers because they're probably a bad daily driver, despite the glowing sponsored racetrack reviews? Just look at all the RX8's showing up at Billy Bob's KIA/Ford. Part of me hopes they are picked up by those kinds of people, to take the brunt of the first year depreciation. Also the RX-8 is a pretty bad daily for no reason other than the terrible fuel economy. In every other respect they're fine to DD.
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Apr 8, 2012 23:00
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InitialDave posted:The figure I've always seen is 1200kg dead, which would be 2640lbs, maybe that's without the US-spec options. Are you sure that's not 1300 kg? Otherwise, dunno, in the US curb weight means wet with full fluids and I believe half a tank of fuel, though I'm not sure on that last bit. Probably the race version weighed less, but we're talking about the street car here. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Apr 8, 2012 |
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Apr 8, 2012 23:19
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RCE weighed a brz at 2714 with a full tank and the spare removed
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Apr 9, 2012 00:39
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mattdizzleZ28 posted:Im comparing it to older cars obviously. And ideally we relax crash/safety regulations to allow for a simpler car. (my daily driver weighs 2300 pounds and i really want to strip poo poo off it it, but florida is hot and i need A/C) Jay-Zeus posted:Another, thing is that I'm now curious to test drive the BRZ in automatic to see how the engine matches the car. I drove a altima coupe yesterday with the I4 and it was painfully slow. It's got about 400 lbs up and 25 HP down from the BRZ, though. 200 HP for a standard in a small car is plenty for me, I think, having a blast in a Mazda2.
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Apr 9, 2012 04:23
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Actually coming from a G6 with a V6, but drove a mazda2 (back to back with a Cayenne S turbo (?)) and it was incredibly fun. Have to get the standard transmission in it though - wouldn't want to have it shift for me.
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Apr 9, 2012 04:34
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japtor posted:Since no one else has asked (or I'm the only one that doesn't know), what car is this? 1996 miata, and its curb weight (source: edmunds) is 2293 pounds. Mine has poo poo removed but we wont get into that. A little extra frame and some "+2 seats" dont weigh 400 pounds, touch screens and electric motors do.
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Apr 9, 2012 04:35
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mattdizzleZ28 posted:A little extra frame and some "+2 seats" dont weigh 400 pounds, touch screens and electric motors do. Yeah, ok, being a foot longer is less a factor in added mass than a touch screen and running some wires from the steering wheel. I know we all want new cars to be engineered as lightly as possible, but your claim that a few gizmos rack up 400 lbs is ridiculous.
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Apr 9, 2012 04:40
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I thought he was joking.
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Apr 9, 2012 04:58
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Splizwarf posted:I thought he was joking. What? You don't have 400lbs of stereo equipment in your car? 
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Apr 9, 2012 05:00
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The stripper, "track-ready" RA version saves about 100 lbs: http://www.autosavant.com/2012/02/11/toyota-subaru-unveil-lightweight-gt86-rc-and-brz-ra-models/ On the weight savings side of the equation, they have succeeded by cutting 100 pounds from the car. ...the stock 17 inch aluminum wheels are shelved in favor of cheaper 16 inch steel wheels, and the fog lights have been removed to shed precious weight... ...engineers left no stone unturned in the quest for maximum weight reduction, and took the liberty of not only removing typically heavy components such as the air conditioning unit, the stock stereo unit, and speaker assemblies. But also more unconventional items which include the foot-well lights, the glove box assembly, the plastic trim pieces from the steering wheel and shifter, the glove box assembly, and the indentations for the cup holders... Also, it won't be available in North America because no one will buy it except for mattdizzleZ28.
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Apr 9, 2012 05:16
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mattdizzleZ28 posted:1996 miata, and its curb weight (source: edmunds) is 2293 pounds. Mine has poo poo removed but we wont get into that. A little extra frame and some "+2 seats" dont weigh 400 pounds, touch screens and electric motors do. Neither the BRZ or FR-S have power interior anything except windows (and modern power windows are usually lighter than manual nowadays), and the FR-S has similar weight numbers with zero touch screens, so no, neither touch screens and electric motors have much to do with this at all. Everyone loves Miatas, but let's get real here, it's hard to compare a first-gen Miata with anything. Also, that 400 pounds is due to stuff like side-impact standards, actual rear seats, a usable trunk, 7 airbags (vs. 2 airbags in the Miata), roof crush test requirements, 70 more horsepower, an extra gear in the transmission, better fuel economy, and the fact that it's 5 inches wider and a whole foot longer. I also bemoan the growing weight and complexity of modern cars, and I think a lot of the government standards and mandates are kind of dumb since they're based on having features instead of simply engineering to a certain level of performance. But at the same time you should realize that nobody is going to buy a car that deliberately aims for less than perfect crash safety results just to save a few hundred pounds. Not to mention the fact that, with globally engineered cars, you have to match not just one country's standards but all of them in every market you're trying for. Nobody wants a super-affordable brand new track special - for that, they either buy a Lotus/semi-boutique kit car (if they have money) or, if they don't have any money, they just go out and buy used Miatas for $3000. If I'm buying a new car, I want it to have A/C, a radio, all the usual modern safety stuff, and not totally ruin my hearing after a half-hour drive to the supermarket. Supposedly the Miata is supposed to lose more weight for the next generation, so if you really need a new car just hold out for the redesign coming in the next year or two since it looks like you fit in one anyway. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Apr 9, 2012 |
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Apr 9, 2012 05:27
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jamal posted:RCE weighed a brz at 2714 with a full tank and the spare removed Doesnt curb weight usually assume that a person is in it??? So its closer to 2850lbs?
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Apr 9, 2012 05:47
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coolskillrex remix posted:Doesnt curb weight usually assume that a person is in it??? So its closer to 2850lbs? In the US, curb weight is wet with half tank or full tank of gas (not sure which - possibly either) but no driver. Basically dry weight + fluids + fuel. I don't think there is a measurement with a driver in it unless it's like corner weights or something, although this might be different in the EU. The announced fuel capacity is 13.2 gallons, which means half a tank is about 40 pounds. I'm assuming it's different from previous announcements because the US spec usually is heavier because of different crash standards and stuff (stuff like heavier bumper beams due to differences in low-speed impact bumper standards, etc.). And I think a full-size temp spare vs. a donut. Also, SOA is only offering the higher-end trims here, while the original Japanese weight figure was probably for a base-spec or stripper model.
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Apr 9, 2012 05:55
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Cream_Filling posted:Supposedly the Miata is supposed to lose more weight for the next generation, so if you really need a new car just hold out for the redesign coming in the next year or two since it looks like you fit in one anyway. One final point on my stupid ranting derail. I honestly cant stand power steering in cars, if the pump and rack weighed zero pounds, i still would not like this feature. No miata in the future will offer this configuration. Thats really the crux of my stupid argument. Statistically because of you (the reader) demanding convenence features, a paragon example of simple light track cars will feature buttons on the steering wheel and a camera for hooking your phone up to. Something about that feels really wrong. Secondly, do we have a source for "electric windows are lighter"? I've seen that statement morph from "its almost the same" to "they are equal weight" and finally to "electric windows are lighter". I just smell B/S and couldnt find any hard facts for myself. it reminds me of "Automatics these days get the same MPG", forgetting that the example they use often has a 10% reduction in power to achieve this. Flesh Croissant fucked around with this message at 06:21 on Apr 9, 2012 |
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Apr 9, 2012 05:55
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mattdizzleZ28 posted:One final point on my stupid ranting derail. I honestly cant stand power steering in cars, if the pump and rack weighed zero pounds, i still would not like this feature. No miata in the future will offer this configuration. Thats really the crux of my stupid argument. Statistically because of you (the reader) demanding convenence features, a paragon example of simple light track cars will feature buttons on the steering wheel and a camera for hooking your phone up to. Something about that feels really wrong.
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Apr 9, 2012 06:52
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Wrar posted:Because rally lunatics like Cat Terrists have weighed the doors. Power steering is a performance feature. You spout nonsense. Automatics often get the same fuel economy because of less aggressive gearing and much better design/programming. What performance benefit is there from having power steering? In my experience it just takes away all ability to feel the grip of the front tires through the steering wheel. Making it easier to park the car doesn't count as performance in my book.
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Apr 9, 2012 07:02
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mattdizzleZ28 posted:One final point on my stupid ranting derail. I honestly cant stand power steering in cars, if the pump and rack weighed zero pounds, i still would not like this feature. No miata in the future will offer this configuration. Thats really the crux of my stupid argument. Statistically because of you (the reader) demanding convenence features, a paragon example of simple light track cars will feature buttons on the steering wheel and a camera for hooking your phone up to. Something about that feels really wrong. Almost all cars are going to electric steering because it increases mileage and simplifies mechanics and packaging (no belts/pullies, no hydraulics). Usually it feels like poo poo, but apparently Porsche and Subaru both have good setups that are nearly indistinguishable from a mechanical setup. It's undeniable that power steering is a performance feature, especially with higher power and/or wider tires. I love mechanical purity, too. Hell, I spent $100 on a mechanical keyboard. But I understand not expecting people to use manual steering on anything short of a go-kart/Lotus 7. Given the fact that we need power steering and that it improves performance, I want whatever has the least drain on power. The reason the story on electric windows has been changing is because electronics have gotten lighter and cheaper over the years. They used to be heavier, then the same, and now they're lighter. Electrics can often simplify away complicated mechanical linkages by replacing them with a single motor and some software. I even think more software isn't necessarily a bad thing for enthusiasts since it also means that hypothetically, we can mess with it and alter the balance between performance and other practical factors that was chosen by the original engineers when programming the system. I'm sure you could design a super-light manual mechanism that's even lighter than a normal power window, but who would pay a premium so they can roll up their own windows? At that point you might as well just have it be fixed glass or plastic or something, and again you're moving down that sliding scale of performance versus practicality. Similarly, older automatics were less efficient primarily due to weight as well as losses in the torque converter, but a modern full lockup design when locked up has an equally efficient direct mechanical connection between the engine output and the wheels. Combine that with less aggressive gearing and really aggressive shift programming that heavily prioritizes efficiency over performance, and you get better MPG. Nowadays the weight difference between a manual and automatic transmission is really, really small. Also, with stuff like the DSGs, shift speed is actually much faster than a normal three-pedal manual. I'll still drive a manual because of that direct connection under my control, but there's a reason race-cars all use computer stuff if they can. I like buttons on the steering wheel because it's better than putting that stuff on a console. It's not like it complicates wiring that much. Nobody was saying anything about cameras, which would be an actual dumb thing. If you're serious about a balls-out track rat, you'd tear the airbags and all that stuff out, anyway. The point of the car is to be a livable daily driver you can also take to the track for people who like the occasional track day or autocross but can't afford having a dedicated track car and tow vehicle.
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Apr 9, 2012 07:19
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Mantle posted:What performance benefit is there from having power steering? In my experience it just takes away all ability to feel the grip of the front tires through the steering wheel. Making it easier to park the car doesn't count as performance in my book. Well, speed of response is one of them. Also, good luck driving something with big power, the accompanying weight, and giant wide tires unless you've got arms like Popeye. Most people love unassisted steering on light track rats, and the feedback is great, but very few people would buy it and I'd rather the engineering resources be spent on stuff that will lower the price and increase volume. If I wanted a pure mechanical experience, I'd buy a Lotus Seven clone or a go-kart or something. No way I'm commuting to work in one, though.
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Apr 9, 2012 07:23
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Firstly, modern power windows are lighter. Who says? Well Subaru rally team to start with, thats who. So if you want to argue, go argue with them. It wont make you right no matter how much you argue, modern power windows ARE lighter with the same weight of glass. Less moving parts are a good starting point. Mantle posted:What performance benefit is there from having power steering? In my experience it just takes away all ability to feel the grip of the front tires through the steering wheel. Making it easier to park the car doesn't count as performance in my book. How about we ask Marcus Gronholm then? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sco58M7Fs4 Anyone who claims power steering doesnt have direct performance benefits is sprouting complete and utter loving nonsense. And feel of the steering? Oh what a complete load of crock. This really pisses me off to hear this oft repeated garbage because it is simply not true and it's going back to deer stalker wearing old tossers in MGBs pissing on about the old days. It's simply not true Well gently caress the old days, we have modern high caster suspensions which you simply can NOT use without power steering. If you don't know why castor is important, then go read suspension 101 and why power steering is important so you dont need arms like a bodybuilder as a result. (Hint - high castor suspension makes the car rise when you turn the wheel. So guess what happens when you turn the wheel? Why that's right, it's hard! Well how about we lose castor.... oh wait that poo poo's important) Now how about 4 turns lock to lock so we dont have to be He-Man? No? Well have a guess exactly what happens if we go to 2.5 turns lock to lock - we lose mechanical advantage and the wheel is impossible to turn! Well hey, how about that non performance advantage power steering, is it looking good yet? And how about big fat wide tyres? Now how about we combine all three and...... well gently caress, you cant turn the wheel? Well sucks to be you, you are just like Marcus Gronholm now! This should be beyond questioning why power steering has become such an important thing in performance. It simply allows things you cant do with manual and that's a drat good thing. CAT INTERCEPTOR fucked around with this message at 08:20 on Apr 9, 2012 |
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Apr 9, 2012 08:16
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Not that I'm all that knowledgeable about it, but are Mantle and/or mattdizzle referring to electric power steering specifically rather than power steering in general? Seems like most of the recent criticism for cars I've heard (and praise for the FR-S) is related to electric power steering. ...even then, isn't that pretty much something that just comes down to how a company chooses to implement it? Like if the systems around are numb, it seems like that would be cause the deliberate numbification of driving in general rather than a limitation.
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Apr 9, 2012 08:43
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