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greatZebu posted:The way you redeem this is to politely refuse to stay until 3am (or anything even close) while quietly looking for a new job. Indulging your management's unreasonable demands is only going to make them respect you less (if such a thing is possible). Nothing really substitutes for a good network when you're looking for a job, but the bar isn't that high to be a lot better than your current situation. Yeah. I only did it because we were offered a small bonus ($100) to finish the project that night, but it really wasn't worth it when I was nearly falling asleep on the 20 minute commute home. There are a few things I've been looking at on Craigslist as it is, as soon as I get my resume fixed I'm sending it out pretty much immediately. If nothing else, at least it's good to keep hope alive that not all programming jobs are this terrible 
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Sep 6, 2012 02:56
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Related to that, I would caution job searchers about consenting to any statement on an application like "I can work overtime as required," as I did a few months ago for a little company called VMWare. (I didn't get the job.) Although you might really need the job, consenting puts you at the mercy of a manager's whim and makes it trivially easy to fire you.
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Sep 6, 2012 06:59
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Zamujasa posted:To that end, is there any better ideas for getting hired than just firing off applications to decent-looking ads on Craigslist? I'm trying to branch off and find better places to connect and I'm somewhat out of ideas, since people have said things like Monster are basically only good for getting spammed. Dice and Stack Overflow careers are both good sites for jobs. You can also reach out to recruiters, although your luck will depend a lot on how scummy the individual recruiter is.
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Sep 6, 2012 14:13
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Gazpacho posted:Related to that, I would caution job searchers about consenting to any statement on an application like "I can work overtime as required," as I did a few months ago for a little company called VMWare. (I didn't get the job.) Although you might really need the job, consenting puts you at the mercy of a manager's whim and makes it trivially easy to fire you. I'm curious, why do you believe that agreeing to work overtime makes it easier to fire somebody? I was always under the impression it was trivially easy to fire anybody in most states. You're absolutely correct with your point about it putting you at the mercy of the manager though. I worked with one guy who would work from 9a.m. until 8 or 9p.m. five days a week. He bitched and cried every day about how much more he works than the other people in the office and how our manager just kept giving him more to things to do on even tighter deadlines. The thing was, he bitched to me, the guy who shared an office with him, instead of standing up to the douche-bag that we worked for.
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Sep 7, 2012 02:21
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oRenj9 posted:I'm curious, why do you believe that agreeing to work overtime makes it easier to fire somebody?
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Sep 7, 2012 02:58
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I feel like repeating that it's a terrible drag to talk to one starry-eyed recruiter after another who doesn't seem to understand that often software devs apply for a job where the skills match, even if it doesn't appear very exciting. Instead they expect me to flatter them about being some kickass company that I've always dreamed of working for. ("Are you passionate about e-mail read counts / electrical power usage reports?") They also want focus all their background questions on my most recent position, which I took because the skills matched and there was a recession on, not because I thought it would produce great stories for the grandkids. When you someday are in a position to recruit software engineers, don't be these people, please. Gazpacho fucked around with this message at 07:12 on Sep 7, 2012 |
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Sep 7, 2012 07:06
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Gazpacho posted:I feel like repeating that it's a terrible drag to talk to one starry-eyed recruiter after another who doesn't seem to understand that often software devs apply for a job where the skills match, even if it doesn't appear very exciting. That's completely understandable from the applicant's perspective. I'm sure most of us have taken jobs where they needed the cash / location more than they needed the job - I know I have. But that isn't the perspective of a hiring manager with more qualified applicants than positions to fill. Why on earth would you hire someone who is not interested in solving the problems that your company needs solved? That person could be a flight risk when they find something they are interested in and a drag on the people around them.
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Sep 7, 2012 14:06
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csammis posted:That's completely understandable from the applicant's perspective. I'm sure most of us have taken jobs where they needed the cash / location more than they needed the job - I know I have. But that isn't the perspective of a hiring manager with more qualified applicants than positions to fill. Why on earth would you hire someone who is not interested in solving the problems that your company needs solved? That person could be a flight risk when they find something they are interested in and a drag on the people around them. (I'm using mostly 2nd person in this response; it's not directed at you, csammis, but at a theoretical, unspecified "you".) If you're a recruiter or a hiring manager for a company that isn't Google, and you believe all the bullshit you get from applicants about how amazing your company looks to them and how excited they are to work in a cube, then you're an idiot. With few exceptions, companies all look the same from the outside. They all have an inspiring-sounding mission statement and a blurb about how great they are to work for and how they treat all their employees like kings and how every day your job will be an adventure through a land of unicorns and rainbows. I will talk about solving your problems computationally all day. I'll talk about what I've learned and how I've grown and the problems I've solved computationally in the past. If you give me some examples of some of the problems your company has, I can talk about those, and chances are I'm going to enjoy solving them, because that's what I enjoy doing. Solving problems, computationally. My desire and ability to do that have nothing to do with your company's "About Us" page on its website. But don't loving expect me to write you a sonnet about how wonderful your company is in and of itself. I've spent 30 minutes there. Every one of your managers could be a sadistic rear end in a top hat and drive me away within months. Everyone knows this. Demanding that your applicants sing praises about a company they've never worked for is pointless game-playing and the amount you indulge in it says something about the level of respect you have for your employees and their intelligence.
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Sep 7, 2012 16:41
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SPEAKING OF RECRUITERS One just asked me what I currently make at my internship. What do I answer? Do I answer?
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Sep 7, 2012 20:56
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it is posted:SPEAKING OF RECRUITERS Don't tell them what you make. It's not relevant. The only thing you can do by telling them what you make at an internship is open yourself up to a deluge of insulting offers by companies who want you to think that 30k is a good offer because you're only making 15k now. If a given company thinks you are qualified for a position and they want to offer it to you, you can negotiate salary at that time. That's your position. The recruiter will have a lot of reasonable-sounding arguments as to why you want to tell them what you make (and/or what your target salary is). Do not give in. It doesn't help you. Che Delilas fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Sep 7, 2012 |
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Sep 7, 2012 21:44
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http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3376083&pagenumber=58&perpage=40#post406058161 TL;DR: never ever talk about money. never ever. PPS, what do you think those recruiters are doing with that information? using it only for your benefit when talking to other companies? Nopes. Don't believe the bullshit about, "making sure we're in the same ballpark." if that's what they really care about, tell them, "Sure what is your ballpark." Or you can just tell them to buzz off.
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Sep 7, 2012 22:18
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Is there anyone in this thread who'd be cool with looking over a resume? I got plat so you can PM me. Graduating this spring so I was hoping to get some feedback from, you know, actual programmers. edit: Tried out this Latex stuff and it's pretty nifty. edit2: vvvvv Thanks, here it is as well vvvvvvv Tres Burritos fucked around with this message at 07:44 on Sep 14, 2012 |
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Sep 10, 2012 23:45
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Tres Burritos if no one answers your request, try this thread http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2000929
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Sep 11, 2012 00:29
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Tres Burritos posted:Is there anyone in this thread who'd be cool with looking over a resume? I got plat so you can PM me. Graduating this spring so I was hoping to get some feedback from, you know, actual programmers. My biggest advice would be to try and get specific about what makes your accomplishments impressive. Maybe your mailing system is critical to the company because all their mail goes through it, or your database generation code is 180% faster than the old solution, or your barcode scanning game led to a 70% increase in scans, or whatever. The point is, you should frame your projects as important and successful whenever you can, because from the outside it's hard to tell the difference between lousy, unimportant projects that the least competent people get stuck with and big, important, impressive projects. Also, the top-level bullet for your senior project should say what the project does in terms more specific than "data visualization," and if you know any other languages (C, Python, whatever) at even a basic level, your list of language skills makes it look like you don't.
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Sep 14, 2012 01:04
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greatZebu posted:My biggest advice would be to try and get specific about what makes your accomplishments impressive. Maybe your mailing system is critical to the company because all their mail goes through it, or your database generation code is 180% faster than the old solution, or your barcode scanning game led to a 70% increase in scans, or whatever. The point is, you should frame your projects as important and successful whenever you can, because from the outside it's hard to tell the difference between lousy, unimportant projects that the least competent people get stuck with and big, important, impressive projects. Hey thanks! When we actually used the manifest mailing system we found that it ended up costing our clients money. We canned it for a couple of years, and then when we needed it again the boss found some simple web service that he could use  . So, updated. I have the phrase, "Modified existing MySQL database to optimize static database generation and mirror concurrency". Does that track? What I'm trying to say is, "we had a database, I was hitting it so hard and so often with updates that the mirrors couldn't keep up, I jiggered with the database structure and now the mirrors can keep up". Is there a better way to say that?
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Sep 14, 2012 07:51
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I recently finished a PhD, and I'm now interviewing with some big Bay Area companies. I'd like to get a handle on what I can reasonably expect in terms of compensation, so that I don't say anything stupid when it comes time to negotiate. I'm having a hard time nailing things down at all, because the salary ranges on sites like glassdoor are pretty enormous, and I'm not sure how my academic experience translates into work experience. It's also hard to evaluate the Bay Area market from my small Midwestern town. My research in a relevant area (parallel computing) and involves a lot of practical application development, but it doesn't directly involve the work I'd probably be doing. Can anyone with more knowledge of the local job market give an idea about what sort of numbers I should be thinking about if I get an offer from Google, for example?
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Sep 14, 2012 10:13
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Tres Burritos posted:I have the phrase, "Modified existing MySQL database to optimize static database generation and mirror concurrency". Does that track? What I'm trying to say is, "we had a database, I was hitting it so hard and so often with updates that the mirrors couldn't keep up, I jiggered with the database structure and now the mirrors can keep up". Is there a better way to say that? Numbers can demonstrate that. "Reduced static database generation time from X to Y."
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Sep 14, 2012 15:40
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So it's been several years since I've started job hunting, but something that has been coming up recently that I'm wondering about. All the recruiters that I've been talking to have been asking about providing a salary range, and refuse to talk to me otherwise. How do you guys usually respond to those?
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Sep 17, 2012 14:52
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Thern posted:So it's been several years since I've started job hunting, but something that has been coming up recently that I'm wondering about. All the recruiters that I've been talking to have been asking about providing a salary range, and refuse to talk to me otherwise. How do you guys usually respond to those? Tell them in the kindest words possible to go gently caress themselves if they won't accept your refusal to provide any such information. Edit, because I just found out about it: For what it's worth, I have an interview tomorrow for a (supposedly Entry/Jr level) .NET position, primarily working with ASP. In all reality I know nothing about any of it, but I feel I've seen enough stuff in varying degrees that I should be able to get by if the projects are appropriate. I've been trying to get into ASP.NET as well as looking for entry level roles of the sort if only because that's what the market here is like. I don't completely hate my current job or anything, but I don't make much and I need to move on soon. I kind of bullshit my way through a recruiter and he got me a screening call with a guy who works at the company itself. They supposedly go by the "interactive agency" term which I hate because it's vague, but whatever. The call with the guy went fine, and I tried to be honest and say that I was mostly a work-in-progress with regards to skills but that I'd be willing to put forth the effort to learn what I'd need to know. He didn't seem to have a problem with that, and now they want to set up an interview for tomorrow. My concern is based on an email with the recruiter where he told me that they had an interview for the position already and that (I quote) "it turned out the candidate was just a bit too “light” for their needs, they are looking for someone who can get started on an ASP.NET/C# project with little-to-no “hand-holding.” Generic "hit the ground running" phrase and so on. This worries me because even though the position was billed to be good for gaining experience, so I can recall, that I could either embarrass myself at the interview or possibly be offered the job and then underperform (not due to a direct lack of effort) and lose it. Am I just being too worrisome here, or am I maybe being oversold by the recruiter/myself? double sulk fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Sep 17, 2012 |
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Sep 17, 2012 15:06
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Thern posted:All the recruiters that I've been talking to have been asking about providing a salary range, and refuse to talk to me otherwise. How do you guys usually respond to those? I know the line is that you're not supposed to get into it, but I just quote them $10k more than the top of the range where I'm living if they won't take no for an answer.
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Sep 17, 2012 16:05
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gucci void main posted:Am I just being too worrisome here, or am I maybe being oversold by the recruiter/myself? Don't apply for jobs that are looking for specific experience with languages that you don't know. They'll probably ask you a few softball questions, realize you're unfamiliar with the language, then thank you for your time and complain to the recruiter.
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Sep 17, 2012 17:09
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baquerd posted:I know the line is that you're not supposed to get into it, but I just quote them $10k more than the top of the range where I'm living if they won't take no for an answer. I've seen this https://gist.github.com/3428401 quote:Thanks you for your inquiry.
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Sep 17, 2012 17:15
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Ithaqua posted:Don't apply for jobs that are looking for specific experience with languages that you don't know. It's just C#, so that's not the part I'm worried about so much as the ASP.NET part. Based on the screen call, the guy didn't seem to mind, but I'll have to figure out if I want to go or not. I don't want to waste their time, but more so my own because the location is 40 minutes away.
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Sep 17, 2012 17:31
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gucci void main posted:It's just C#, so that's not the part I'm worried about so much as the ASP.NET part. Based on the screen call, the guy didn't seem to mind, but I'll have to figure out if I want to go or not. I don't want to waste their time, but more so my own because the location is 40 minutes away. If you think you were completely honest on the screening call and the manager understood your limitations, I'd say go for the interview. Remember that whatever the recruiter tells you is third hand information and could've been accidentally or maliciously under/over/misstated either by the company or the recruiter. I'd rather waste a little time than miss a good opportunity. Just continue to be forthright about your lack of .NET experience in the interview.
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Sep 17, 2012 18:14
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Johnny Cache Hit posted:If you think you were completely honest on the screening call and the manager understood your limitations, I'd say go for the interview. Remember that whatever the recruiter tells you is third hand information and could've been accidentally or maliciously under/over/misstated either by the company or the recruiter. Yeah, I might not have been clear about it, but the screen call was with a guy who was actually at the company I am supposed to interview at (they apparently want to move it a couple days now). I was honest and said that in the right environment I feel I can get stuff done, even if I'm lacking in the actual knowledge, and he told me that the motivation to learn matters a lot. I'll probably give it a go, but I have no idea what's going to happen. I'll just try to brush up on as much as I can beforehand and maybe throw something small together, if possible.
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Sep 17, 2012 18:55
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Short question regarding references (this might be a dumb question): So I'm once again having to find a new job. I was at my previous position for 13 months, but was amicably let go on Thursday (I won't go into the details since it's irrelevant, but suffice it to say I didn't do some massive gently caress up or anything like that). Either way there are three guys there that will be more than happy to give me an excellent reference: the president and co-founder of the company, and two senior producers. What I am wondering is should I, upon being asked, give all three as references, or would that seem "fishy" or something? Would it be better to just give the president/co-founder as the reference as he holds the most weight? Or perhaps the one senior producer whom I'm very good friends with now (who would probably give me an even better reference simply because of how good of friends we are)?
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Sep 22, 2012 22:47
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Optimus Prime Ribs posted:Short question regarding references (this might be a dumb question): In my experience, it doesn't really matter. I've never had a reference even called before.
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Sep 22, 2012 23:08
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Ithaqua posted:In my experience, it doesn't really matter. I've never had a reference even called before. Ah. I guess if I do get asked for some references I'll give them all three.  Just thought of something: Would it be pretentious to put courses from https://www.coursera.org/ on a resume? I love that site and have learnt a lot from it, but I'm not sure if it would belong on a resume.
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Sep 23, 2012 01:31
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Optimus Prime Ribs posted:Ah. I guess if I do get asked for some references I'll give them all three. My opinion is that it's still too early to tell where these courses from Coursera, Udacity, edX will hold up. But if it's' relevant to the job position I would probably put it in somewhere, especially if the course was taught by someone well known in the field and was actually rigorous.
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Sep 23, 2012 10:17
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How rare are jobs where you are not required to assign everything you create to your company? I ask because I'm interning at a place where I don't do development, I just maintain automated test suites, and as part of my contract, everything I create belongs to my company. I've been there for roughly three months and the pay is poo poo even by internship standards. I don't really need the money so I'm wondering if now would be an okay time to quit, put the "experience" on my resume, and start working on my own projects both as something to put forth later as evidence that I can program, and because I want to work on them and keep the rights to my work. I don't really want to get a job later at a place where I have to avoid doing anything on my own time, have to get permission from my employer to work on particular things, etc. Is that unrealistic?
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Sep 24, 2012 12:20
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Those lines in contracts are jokes and you should draw a big fat line through them before signing.
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Sep 24, 2012 12:56
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unixbeard posted:Those lines in contracts are jokes and you should draw a big fat line through them before signing. Yep, our startup got some series B funding and they tried to make the employees sign contracts with these lines in them and all the developers (and support staff) refused to sign it until they put in wording that exempted projects we did on our own time.
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Sep 24, 2012 14:27
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Safe and Secure! posted:I don't really want to get a job later at a place where I have to avoid doing anything on my own time, have to get permission from my employer to work on particular things, etc. Is that unrealistic? The only unrealistic expectation is on the part of the employer that demands such a thing, I don't care how common or boilerplate the language is considered among the people who wrote the contracts. Don't put up with it.
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Sep 24, 2012 18:56
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I have an on-campus screening interview for Microsoft next week, what should I be reading up on/practicing?
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Sep 25, 2012 01:51
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You can't really practice for the interview and certainly cannot read up in any way that will significantly improve your chances unless the interview process is severely broken.
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Sep 25, 2012 02:03
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shrughes posted:You can't really practice for the interview and certainly cannot read up in any way that will significantly improve your chances unless the interview process is severely broken. I think this is mostly but not entirely true. If you don't know your poo poo, it's too late to fix now. But it's worth reviewing a few common things so that they're fresh in your memory. The goal is not so much to learn new stuff. It's more to make sure you're comfortable with the kinds of things you'll need to do in an interview and make sure that all the most relevant stuff is fresh in your memory. It's worth reviewing the asymptotic cost of common operations on lists, trees, hash tables, etc, and making sure you have a ballpark idea of how long various operations take on modern hardware (e.g. reading from cache, from main memory, from disk, across a network). It's also worth memorizing your powers of two if you don't already know them well and practicing some bit manipulation stuff if you're not confident about it already. Most importantly, practice coding at a whiteboard. Take a few simple problems (write a simple sort, find an item in a binary search tree, remove an item from a linked list, etc), and write implementations on a whiteboard (or if you don't have one available, on paper). Take the time to go through it looking for bugs. Think about how to test it. Then type exactly what you wrote into a computer and test it for real.
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Sep 25, 2012 03:35
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KNITS MY FEEDS posted:I have an on-campus screening interview for Microsoft next week, what should I be reading up on/practicing? Read up on stack ranking as it relates to Microsoft's performance evaluation process.
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Sep 25, 2012 03:42
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So, Google hasn't gotten back to me, which is kind of a bummer. It'll be three weeks on Thursday. I look pretty good on paper, easily exceeding the posting's minimum qualifications and meeting most of its preferred qualifications. But, I guess they can afford to be as picky and slow as they want to be. I'm tired of getting my hopes up every time I see I have an email, though.
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Sep 25, 2012 04:10
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greatZebu posted:I think this is mostly but not entirely true. If you don't know your poo poo, it's too late to fix now. But it's worth reviewing a few common things so that they're fresh in your memory. The goal is not so much to learn new stuff. It's more to make sure you're comfortable with the kinds of things you'll need to do in an interview and make sure that all the most relevant stuff is fresh in your memory. Thanks, just what I was looking for!
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Sep 25, 2012 05:38
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Just on the "we own everything you do" thing. As a matter of course, HR and the legal department will come up with some employment contract for all employees. One of the main roles of HR is to protect the company from you, the employee. Likewise the lawyers are paid to make sure the company is protected as much as possible. I'm not saying this is good or bad, it's just something to be aware of, the HR people may be nice but they are not your friends. When it comes to contracts, be it employment or for engagements with other companies, HR and legal get together and come up with something that is the best for the company because that's just what they do. It is likely they realise some clauses are egregious, but they figure most of the time the other side won't say anything about it and most of the time they are right. The other side signs the contract and the company has got itself in a great position should anything go wrong with the relationship. The thing to remember is that contracts are very negotiable. The point of the negotiations is to reach terms that are agreeable to both parties. I have seen the smallest, one man in a phone booth type companies engage in lengthy discussion and amendment process with some of the largest companies in the world, and in all cases agreement was reached. HR/Legal expect it because they know they have put some corkers in there. If you are given an employment contract, you are in a very strong position to negotiate clauses you feel are unworkable. Hiring is a big pain in the rear end. There's the guy that is hiring you, who probably had several discussions with his manager and his manager's manager, plus dealing with recruiters, reading cv's, interviewing, internal discussions about people interviewed etc etc. Once it's at the stage you have a contract in front of you, you can be pretty sure that "you're the guy." It is important to remember this, and also to realise that the guy that's hiring you, his manager, his manager's manager and the team that needs to get someone on board will probably take a dim view of HR/Legal being a pain in the rear end about stuff. There are some things they will buckle down over, but stuff like "we own the rights to everything you do in your spare time" is not one of them. If you are looking at a contract and see a clause like that, put it on them to justify why it is there. Say something like "in clause 10, part c I see you would be taking the rights to stuff I do in my own time with my own resources, why exactly do you require that?" They might say something like "oh that's a standard term", to which you reply "oh really, hmm which standard is that?" They may be company standard (i.e. stuff they made up cause its best for them), to which you respond by going "hmmm" with a serious look on your face then go silent until someone else says something. Everything in a contract is negotiable, you can put whatever terms you want in there as long as the other side agrees. Words/phrases like "Standard", "Official", "Government approved" etc etc carry as much weight as the certificate of authenticity you get from that guy in nigeria who wants to put $4.5 million in your bank account, if only you can transfer a small processing fee first. Or they might say something like "oh that, we never enforce it" then you say "oh great then theres no issue in taking that one out, thanks". Regardless, you ask them nicely to take it out, whenever they ask you why, ask them why they need it. If they push you just say you work have projects in your spare time (which, incidentally, is why you have such great skills they want to hire you for), and such a clause means you would have to give them up, as you can't really operate in such a grey area. You don't need to get defensive, just be clear that it wouldn't really be workable having to give the company the rights to your christian gangsta rap project, and ask them again why they need that. Remember that they want to hire you, which is why they have given you the contract. I have never heard of anyone who objected to such a clause having the contract withdrawn. It's just HR/Legal doing their jobs to do the best they can for the company because most people don't say anything, and there is also the realpolitik of hiring, the people trying to get you on will get upset at HR for being a pain in the rear end about dumb stuff when there's work to be done. Two things might happen, first they agree to take it out, which they should, cause its dumb. If it's a big company this might take some time because everything takes time, it might be 2+ weeks before you get the amended contract, don't sweat it, you're they guy, they want to hire you. They know its a dumb clause but they know that most people don't say anything about it, and so the company gets a free win. If it's been unbearably long try follow up with the hiring manager. There's a good chance your hiring manager is an awkward nerd like yourself who also doesn't really like dealing with this stuff, if its dragging out you can always be a bit more familiar with them and talk about all your pet projects etc, so they can see you're not just being a jerk for the sake of it. The second is they might say they can't take it out. Which is bullshit, there is no legislation that requires such a clause. You have two options. The first is to put a dollar value on all your spare time, pet projects, being a thought criminal, etc, and ask them for compensation in lieu of removing the clause. The second option is to seriously consider what it will be like working for a company that is so hardline about blatantly trying to screw their employees over with unreasonable demands. Experience would suggest to me that it's probably not going to be an enjoyable work environment. But that's for you to decide, and maybe you sign it anyway. I signed similar things when I was younger and dumber. So yeah, HR are not your friends, it is their professional duty to do what is best for the company. Don't take it personally, be polite, put it on them to justify it, and really you shouldn't have to have such a thing in your contract. [edit] Also many professional associations have a contract review service where they will look over a contract for you and give you advice. If it's not really something you feel comfortable dealing with yourself, it's worth looking around for such a thing. unixbeard fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Sep 25, 2012 |
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Sep 25, 2012 14:54
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