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randombattle posted:Also on the topic of Pacific Rim I figured the Kaiju were closer to the alien's Jaegers. Giant mass produced machines designed for one task that use the linking of information to achive that goal. They are the kind of opposite to the human Jaegers designed to destroy instead of protect. I half expected that scene to have an alien pop out like he was controlling it. This is the way I took it too. The Kaiju are the aliens' weapons of war. They don't use lasers, missiles, or nukes. They use bio-engineered monsters and things like EMPs when needed.
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Jul 18, 2013 22:53
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The Kaiju are corporations, the walls are degrading social safety nets, the Jaegers are the proletariat gaining class consciousness.
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Jul 18, 2013 22:54
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The monsters are all female, vat-grown clones. they have no sexual difference and so can't get pregnant - but this one somehow did. It's kaiju jesus! SuperMechagodzilla posted:Also, I apologize for unclear phrasing. The virgin birth occurs in Pacific Rim. I don't see gender being identified in any of the other monsters, let alone explicitly defined for Otachi. They're also not vat-grown so much as assembled, as I recall the brief scene of muscle fibers being extruded onto a skeletal frame. The Kaiju are alien to us in both origin and biology. Their blood is toxic, their excrement richer in phosphorous than that of native animals, they've two brains what can remain somewhat alive when removed from their circulatory and digestive systems for what would appear to be an extended period of time. We can't say with certainty that Kaiju have distinct genders or are incapable of reproduction without sexual activity. There are even terrestrial animals that are capable of having virgin births. Monitor lizards in particular are able to successfully colonize distant islands with only a single healthy female making landfall.
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Jul 18, 2013 22:54
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:In Ghidorah The Three-headed Monster, Mothra's self-sacrifice inspires Godzilla and Rodan to team up with her against Ghidorah. Ghidorah is eventually revealed to be an ally of the Xians, a group of colonizing rapists (they are literally defeated by a high-tech rape whistle). That's the sequel Invasion of Astro-Monster where Ghidorah was being controlled. The only alien in Ghidorah, the Three-headed Monster was the princess from Venus. In Invasion of Astro-Monster the Xilians recovered Ghidorah and tried to use their mind control noise stuff on him and Godzilla to colonize Earth.
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Jul 18, 2013 22:56
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Like I said earlier in response to him they're more along the lines of a terraforming machine than a normal animal. They don't have their own thoughts or drives and they're controlled by the alien intelligence beyond the bridge. They even gain upgrades throughout the film to better combat the mechs and finish their annihilation of humanity for the first stage of the terraforming.
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Jul 18, 2013 22:57
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Jurassic Park had female monsters giving birth when they weren't supposed to as well. A metaphor for how male intellectuals try to control the reproductive rights of women? Think about it.
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Jul 18, 2013 22:58
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randombattle posted:Also on the topic of Pacific Rim I figured the Kaiju were closer to the alien's Jaegers. Giant mass produced machines designed for one task that use the linking of information to achive that goal. They are the kind of opposite to the human Jaegers designed to destroy instead of protect. I half expected that scene to have an alien pop out like he was controlling it. They are exactly the aliens Jaegars. It's a big part of the whole We Created Monsters to Fight Monsters. The two brains, immense power and destructive force, mod ability by its creators. Kaiju are machines that use wetware instead of hardware
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Jul 18, 2013 23:00
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casa de mi padre posted:Jurassic Park had female monsters giving birth when they weren't supposed to as well. A metaphor for how male intellectuals try to control the reproductive rights of women? Think about it. We don't know if the birth of Otachi Jr. was intentional or not, but seeing as how the Kaiju are literally assembled, I'm going to lean with it being an intentional feature. edit: Bad Moon posted:They are exactly the aliens Jaegars. It's a big part of the whole We Created Monsters to Fight Monsters. The two brains, immense power and destructive force, mod ability by its creators. Kaiju are machines that use wetware instead of hardware This is my interpretation as well.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:00
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randombattle posted:That's the sequel Invasion of Astro-Monster where Ghidorah was being controlled. The only alien in Ghidorah, the Three-headed Monster was the princess from Venus. In Invasion of Astro-Monster the Xilians recovered Ghidorah and tried to use their mind control noise stuff on him and Godzilla to colonize Earth. There is a lot of continuity in Honda's kaiju films. Invasion of Astro-Monster is basically Ghidorah Part 2. And yeah, you have that wrong. Godzilla and Rodan are mind-controlled. Ghidorah is not, and Godzilla and Rodan both force him to retreat back into space at the end.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:02
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The monsters are all female, vat-grown clones. they have no sexual difference and so can't get pregnant - but this one somehow did. It's kaiju jesus! Care to support your assumptions that all the kaiju are female, have no sexual differences, and lack the ability to get pregnant with some text from the film? At least one of those three is full on disproven by the film itself. I again say that I'm glad to see someone putting a lot of thought and effort into analysis, but it really is getting annoying that you're making up facts wholesale to try to make a point.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:07
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gently caress This Puzzle posted:Like I said earlier in response to him they're more along the lines of a terraforming machine than a normal animal. They don't have their own thoughts or drives and they're controlled by the alien intelligence beyond the bridge. They're not terraforming machines, diegetically. They're specifically the foot soldiers, with the terraforming entities coming later. And the ability of people to Drift- connect intimately- with kaiju shows that they do have an intellect, though one that's vastly alien (this also has interesting implications for the Jaegers that are sadly neglected in the film, apart from the final scenes). They also act as though they are thinking and feeling entities, and while we could assume that this is all being simulated by the central alien brain, that quickly becomes no better than solipsism. jivjov posted:Care to support your assumptions that all the kaiju are female, have no sexual differences, and lack the ability to get pregnant with some text from the film? At least one of those three is full on disproven by the film itself. I again say that I'm glad to see someone putting a lot of thought and effort into analysis, but it really is getting annoying that you're making up facts wholesale to try to make a point. There's no proof, but there's a great deal of yonic/labial imagery in the kaiju design, and there's no sense of sexual differentiation anywhere in the film, and they're manufactured, so any pregnancies must not be natural- either artificial or miraculous. Effectronica fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Jul 18, 2013 |
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Jul 18, 2013 23:07
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Got back from seeing it earlier today (finally). Here's my review:  Alright, I guess I should go into more detail, the fights were magnificent, the characters while somewhat being archetypes were nonetheless entertaining (and of course, Day, Elba and Perlman stole the film), and I liked that the Mako and Rayleigh relationship was well developed and could be read in a number of ways. And even if you look at it as a romantic one, it's more in the Tron Legacy style of 'I like you and you like me, but we have bigger poo poo to deal instead of swapping Mills and Boone dialogue', as opposed to taking up haf the film in an incredibly annoying manner (looking at you, Attack of the Clones). It's giant robot fighting done right. To paraphrase what somebody else said (wish I could remember who it was), Pacific Rim is to Bayformers as Jurassic Park is to Theodore Rex. Chinston Wurchill posted:if the dinosaurs were kaiju, and birds descended from dinosaurs...oh no! Close your windows! At least, the truth behind Hitchcock's The Birds is revealed.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:07
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Yvonmukluk posted:At least, the truth behind Hitchcock's The Birds is revealed. And Birdemic: Shock and Horror. Has SMG done any analysis of that? I'd actually like to see what he's written on that trainwreck, or maybe the text of that film is not sub enough for him?
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Jul 18, 2013 23:09
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jivjov posted:Care to support your assumptions that all the kaiju are female, have no sexual differences, and lack the ability to get pregnant with some text from the film? At least one of those three is full on disproven by the film itself. I again say that I'm glad to see someone putting a lot of thought and effort into analysis, but it really is getting annoying that you're making up facts wholesale to try to make a point. They're female in the way the predator in Predator is female, not in the literal sense of chromosomes. They're really yonic.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:10
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Shanty posted:They're female in the way the predator in Predator is female, not in the literal sense of chromosomes. They're really yonic. I actually haven't see Predator (much to my chagrin) so that reference is lost on me.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:11
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jivjov posted:I actually haven't see Predator (much to my chagrin) so that reference is lost on me. I have and still don't get it.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:12
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:There is a lot of continuity in Honda's kaiju films. Invasion of Astro-Monster is basically Ghidorah Part 2. Yeah it's a direct sequel cause you find out that Ghidorah is a weapon that aliens control to destroy planets. He's totally a nuclear analog like Godzilla. I may be blending vs. Gigan or DAM when I remember Ghidorah wrecking poo poo but he was being controlled all the time as he's basically a Pacific Rim style Kaiju, a big bioweapon that is controlled.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:12
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Pope Mobile posted:I have and still don't get it. Maybe... he means the mouth of the Predator? That's all I can come up with 
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Jul 18, 2013 23:13
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Wouldn't bludgeoning weapons like staffs/morning stars/spiked clubs be pretty good weapons for the jaegers? Mount them on their backs or something, have em electrified or disposable. It would also give them something to jam in the kaiju's mouth when they try to bite the jaegers. Also, i feel like this program would be pretty useful for defense on the breach. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_bombardment
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Jul 18, 2013 23:13
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jivjov posted:I actually haven't see Predator (much to my chagrin) so that reference is lost on me. Well it's got a pussy for a face. It looks like Hornyman Travis was the art director.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:14
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jivjov posted:I actually haven't see Predator (much to my chagrin) so that reference is lost on me. Predator has a vagina face. I'm not really seeing the yonic symbolism in the Kaiju though. Knifehead has a phallic head that penetrates Gipsy Danger while Otachi has a phallic tongue that probes the public shelter.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:15
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No info on Diablo Intercept? all I know is it was a South American Jaeger stationed in the Lima Shatterdome. You know, the more I see the wealth of information about all the Jaegers and Kaiju, the more I want a friggin series based on this universe. Call it Shatterdome Diaries. Each season would focus on a different Shatterdome during the Heyday of the Age of Jaegers. Somewhere in the middle of all this I want to see Ron Pearlman and Gary Busey in some FlipperBaby Kaiju Hemonculus. gently caress!
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Jul 18, 2013 23:15
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jivjov posted:I actually haven't see Predator (much to my chagrin) so that reference is lost on me. "Pussyface" - Danny Glover
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Jul 18, 2013 23:15
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Crunkjuice posted:Wouldn't bludgeoning weapons like staffs/morning stars/spiked clubs be pretty good weapons for the jaegers? Mount them on their backs or something, have em electrified or disposable. It would also give them something to jam in the kaiju's mouth when they try to bite the jaegers. Boat Deployed 
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Jul 18, 2013 23:16
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Has Tiffany "Asuka Langley Sohryu" Grant done any live-action stuff? She should be a pilot in the sequel. Figured she'd be all over that, considering she is literally an anime.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:16
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I'm really impressed at the speed and consistency with which people are responding to "the kaiju represent social abjects and outcasts" with "NO, the kaiju are mindless monsters completely antithetical to our way of life, there can be no middle ground here, destroy the scum immediately and without a moment's hesitation".
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Jul 18, 2013 23:18
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Crunkjuice posted:Wouldn't bludgeoning weapons like staffs/morning stars/spiked clubs be pretty good weapons for the jaegers? Mount them on their backs or something, have em electrified or disposable. It would also give them something to jam in the kaiju's mouth when they try to bite the jaegers. You reminded me of something else mentioned in the background information but not really expanded upon in the film: The Kaiju are supposed to have toxic blood. Now this really interested me. I was thinking, imagine Aliens, but the Xenomorphs are 300 feet tall!  . They didn't really go into too much detail, a shame because in the comic Tendo Choi's grandfather is killed by Kaiju Blue . Cherno Alpha was supposed to have Tesla Fists but never used them. There was a lot of robot punching, and while it was impressive and fun to see giant robots beating up giant monsters like they were pinatas, All the Kaiju were killed by non-blunt methods- Knifehead and Leatherback were plasma cannon-ed to death, Raiju and Otachi were sliced up, Tresspasser and Scunner/Slattern were nuked, Bladehead was killed by Striker Eureka's missile barrage, etc. None of them were actually beaten to death. .
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Jul 18, 2013 23:24
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gently caress This Puzzle posted:"Pussyface" - Danny Glover Oh, Predator 2. The really, really bad one.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:26
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If anything, once I leave the afterglow of ROBOTS PUNCH MONSTERS behind, I pity the Kaiju. They're obviously sapient, no clue if they're sentient, but they're assembled for war (or extermination duty). They get shoved through a rift into our world, pointed at a city, and get smashed by giant metal fists.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:27
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Ferrinus posted:I'm really impressed at the speed and consistency with which people are responding to "the kaiju represent social abjects and outcasts" with "NO, the kaiju are mindless monsters completely antithetical to our way of life, there can be no middle ground here, destroy the scum immediately and without a moment's hesitation". It's like saying the panzers in a World War II movie represent social outcasts. Won't someone think of the Tigers??
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Jul 18, 2013 23:28
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jivjov posted:If anything, once I leave the afterglow of ROBOTS PUNCH MONSTERS behind, I pity the Kaiju. They're obviously sapient, no clue if they're sentient, but they're assembled for war (or extermination duty). They get shoved through a rift into our world, pointed at a city, and get smashed by giant metal fists. Plus, when compared to the Jaegers, have a pretty crappy track record- they go attack a city, get intercepted, die. Sure the early ones were able to wreck some real estate, and later they had strength in numbers, but look at the Jaegers- I don't think a single Jaeger had worse than a 1:1 KDR. All of them excelled up to a point. The four remaining had accounted for about 20 Kaiju kills between them. That's pretty good.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:31
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Ferrinus posted:I'm really impressed at the speed and consistency with which people are responding to "the kaiju represent social abjects and outcasts" with "NO, the kaiju are mindless monsters completely antithetical to our way of life, there can be no middle ground here, destroy the scum immediately and without a moment's hesitation". The kaiju only have minds so that the humans can read them to discover how they work. Depicting them with even that much consciousness means that it's not completely wrong to interpret them as something other than acts of God. I still say "thinking tsunami" is a much stronger reading than "scum," but to the extent that they are an other, their otherness is manifested as aggression and they're otherwise quite similar to the humans.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:33
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gently caress This Puzzle posted:It's like saying the panzers in a World War II movie represent social outcasts. I'm sure eventually there will be an Anime to that effect.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:34
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Characters literally punch the pregnant 'hurricane' until it miscarries & dies. Yeah, who ever heard of a natural disaster spawning smaller disasters in its wake. It's important that the kaiju don't just knock down buildings, but that they pollute the area when they're gone. An easily relevant real-world example is Fukushima in 2011: an earthquake causes a tsunami causes a partial nuclear meltdown rendering the surrounding area unsafe. New Orleans floods and the water carries toxic poo poo from one place to another, corrupting it even after the water recedes. Note that New Orleans was also protected by a wall that did a lovely job thanks to politicians not giving a drat about poor people. The movie is pretty clear about this. A nuclear reactor (Cherno Alpha, which isn't just nuclear-powered but shaped like a drat cooling silo) is flooded and then the clean-up crew (Hannibal) is killed by the lingering, initially invisible after-effects. It's important that the baby isn't actually miscarried. It's born alive and strangled by its umbilical cord. The imagery is of a secondary, unforeseen disaster limited in its damage through the mitigation of the disaster which spawned it. Anyways, it's a mistake to treat the kaiju as distinct entities. They share one mind and lack individual personality. There's repeated imagery of jaegers being buffeted by ocean waves and kaiju attacking with the swell of an ocean. This is meaningful. An ocean wave is not an individual unit, it's an acting part of a whole. A kaiju is not an individual creature, it's just a part of a whole. There's repeated imagery of a kaiju disappearing into and emerging from the water, difficult to discern from it, until it moves onto land. A tsunami or flood is just the ocean temporarily moving onto the land, but we speak of that extension as if it were independent. This is different than in WWZ, where however much the people clump together as if an undifferentiated hoard, they're still distinct from the land around them. The kaiju are literally presented as being difficult to distinguish from the pounding of ocean waves. It's not that you can't read the kaiju as the poor or anything else, it's just less tied into what's actually shown to us, even ignoring the framing that the movie characters give to them in the exposition. Sir Kodiak fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Jul 18, 2013 |
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Jul 18, 2013 23:40
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Ferrinus posted:I'm really impressed at the speed and consistency with which people are responding to "the kaiju represent social abjects and outcasts" with "NO, the kaiju are mindless monsters completely antithetical to our way of life, there can be no middle ground here, destroy the scum immediately and without a moment's hesitation". The movie shows actual humans in that role - they make them work for food stamps on the
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Jul 18, 2013 23:41
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The Kaiju seemed a lot like the baddies in power rangers to me. Put a little figurine down, add water and instant city-smasher. I think one of the reasons they lacked sentiencewas because they were just like an 80's cartoon where the characters are defined by one core principle or personality and stay in that role. I felt like pretty much all the characters in the film were very much 80's cartoon characters. I guess they're all a lot like a 17th century beast fable in which each character wears the mask of a particular animal and takes on those attributes. You know what to expect from them without a backstory, which I guess is why the film just gets straight to the point. The Kaiju to me are like those clay figurines that get turned in to bigger and badder living magic the gathering decks each time trying to defeat those dastardly power rangers. Whether that's a metaphor or allegory for something I don't know, but it makes sense for them to be slight automatons as they are really the gladiatorial pawns of a higher power.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:54
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Have to say I love the movie but I don't understand why everyone is so troubled over SMG's reading of the film & Jefferoo's posting comes across in a very troubling way. The idea that impetuous behavior is the way to battle this 'menace' that's there is no time for thought given to the ethics of your actions but rather that you must act by destroying this other who threatens you even if they are no longer a threat to you. This was even referenced in the opening monologue, the Kaiju were only a threat in the very early encounter, for a time at least leading up to that start of the film they were considered a trivial menace. Consider the idea of 30 jagers being on standby against a single Kaiju. The war machine that kicked into action unsurprisingly was disproportionate in response to the threat presented. which are hunted for sport by the pilots, who kept track of their kills as a status symbol in the same way bombers and fighters did in WWII. This along with Raleigh's lack of fear in facing them at the beginning implied to me he expected to almost outright slaughter the creature. The only troubling part for Raleigh was when the Kaiju fought back and shattered his juvenile idea of war. This in retrospect for me colour's the opening monologue, with that first encounter, quite a bit and makes him something of an unreliable narrator. Along with his obvious prejudice towards the Kaiju after his brothers death, there's even a scene that illustrates his disdain when in the elevator with Newt who only wants to better understand the creatures and why they keep coming through the rift, ultimately so he can prevent it from happening but the very idea anyone would want to get close to the Kaiju either in understanding or proximity repulses or scares Raeligh. Every scene that involved drifting with the Kaiju was also interesting, how they were assembled on a factory line but appeared to be in pain and anguish whilst being stitched together and then flushed into our world, their masters seemed to showed the same level of disdain for the creatures as the human characters in the movie. As many pointed out the drift worked both ways and gave the Kaiju better understanding of us hence the quick death of Cherno Alpha and Crimson Typhoon, but there was also the oddly touching moment between Newt and the Kaiju, as someone posted as a near throw away remark much earlier in the thread maybe they thought he was their friend. "Monsters are tragic beings. They are born too tall, too strong, too heavy. They are not evil by choice. That is their tragedy." This thread is moving very fast at the moment so apologies if this post seems out of place or is just repeating someone else's point. It's likely I've completely misread SMGs point though but his posts make for great reading, also I'm not trying to talk down Jefferoo's point or the idea that Kaiju are walking natural disasters, as it's a perfectly valid interpretation, rather the over zealous nature of fighting the Kaiju along with the fascist undertones in defending that course of action should be given careful thought, the reference to Starship Troopers couldn't be more on point.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:54
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This thread has exploded and reading it hurts my head.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:57
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sean10mm posted:The movie shows actual humans in that role - they make them work for food stamps on the That overused Umberto Eco quote in full posted:8. The followers must feel humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their enemies. This is also somewhat relevant to Pacific Rim: More of the 14 Ways posted:11. In such a perspective everybody is educated to become a hero. That is, the wretched of fascist society are comforted by the presence of the external scum. I don't necessarily find Pacific Rim to be definitely fascist, but it's not a hard reading to find when collective action is built around defeating an outside force, necessarily pitiful, overwhelming and the scum of the earth all at once, when technology is promoted as the grand solution to complex problems, and when the will to power overcomes physical limitations. Or, for that matter, the heroic death, but of course this in the course of a sacrificial action and so is somewhat muted.
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Jul 18, 2013 23:58
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I don't think the Kaiju can really be described as natural disasters. They are compared to hurricanes by characters in the film, but this is only in regards to heir destructive ability. A natural disaster is something that is endured, survived and the damage it did rebuilt in its wake, while the Kaiju are actively fought against. You don't build giant robotic tornados or earthquake machines to stop natural disasters. I found the movie hard to enjoy because of the conflicting themes and lack of development of what I saw as the most interesting parts. A major element that comes up repeatedly is working together, cooperation. Nations come together to build the Yaegers, dual pilots are needed to effectively control them but then a large emphasis is put on the abilities of a couple characters to do things on their own, without any help. At the end of the movie Pentacost and Hanson work as a team to the end, but Raleigh just sends Mako away saying, "I can do this by myself, I don't need any help" and heroically completes the mission on his own. Sir Kodiak posted:Yeah, who ever heard of a natural disaster spawning smaller disasters in its wake. It's important that the baby isn't actually miscarried. It's born alive and strangled by its umbilical cord. The imagery is of a secondary, unforeseen disaster limited in its damage through the mitigation of the disaster which spawned it. I had thought about this aspect, the baby Kaiju being a sort of secondary disaster, but its actually a boon for the characters. It gives them the brain they needed to drift with the Kaiju again.
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