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NikkolasKing posted:The only thing I hated was Hope's attitude about his dad. It does not in any way match up with how the guy is. He was a total bro and possibly the best dad in the series. (in terms of actual fatherly ability) And it's not even like when Hope meets him he demonstrates some stupid rebellious streak that might explain his earlier dialogue. Like, he was lying or exaggerating the whole time. What we see of the two is they get along and love each other very much. This, as with most of Hope's plot, is an extremely Japanese thing. Hope's father is not a "total bro." He is effectively a salaryman who is barely around and who Hope resents because he barely knows him and they don't get along well. On top of that, he didn't actually go looking for his family after he heard what happened to them and they were part of the Purge because he was afraid of breaking social order. It is only when he finally is confronted with his son's condition and his wife's death directly that he is willing to overcome his dedication to the status quo and actually take action to help them.
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Jul 23, 2013 00:49
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13 is above all else a game about cool dads. Sazh is even a dad to kids who aren't his own.ImpAtom posted:Except none of this is actually Lightning's character, which is the problem and why it isn't going to 'change" because to the Japanese audience this isn't her character. They don't know who this character is and that's the fault of the translation, not the writing. It's a problem, but it isn't a case where you can go "Well, why don't they fix that?" because they probably don't even know it's a problem. Which is in itself a bigger problem. What actually is her character in the Japanese version? I don't know anything about the Japanese version of the game and just assumed the translation kept the characters reasonably close between version. But seriously, what other type of character could she be? It's honestly sounding like the English version is better from a storytelling and characterization perspective than the Japanese one. I don't know whether that says a lot or very little. chumbler fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Jul 23, 2013 |
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Jul 23, 2013 00:51
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ImpAtom posted:Except none of this is actually Lightning's character, which is the problem and why it isn't going to 'change" because to the Japanese audience this isn't her character. They don't know who this character is and that's the fault of the translation, not the writing. It's a problem, but it isn't a case where you can go "Well, why don't they fix that?" because they probably don't even know it's a problem. Which is in itself a bigger problem. I think the writing is at least part of the problem. It's hard to get a real feeling for a character in a story where they have no real agency because they're being manipulated right up to the very end, and that's exactly what happens in FF13.
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Jul 23, 2013 00:53
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chumbler posted:What actually is here character in the Japanese version? I don't know anything about the Japanese version of the game and just assumed the translation kept the characters reasonably close between version. But seriously, what other type of character could she be? Well, to begin with, Lightning is the opposite of brooding. She's extremely emotional and driven. She spends most of the first chunk of the game absolutely loving furious over what has happened and not in a brooding way. In a "punch Snow in the face and scream at him" way. Even outside of that she's an emotional person who is at least reasonable to basically everyone not named "Snow." You can even see this with how quickly she takes to Sazh or Hope or other characters. She just really has a massive problem with Snow. She isn't anti-social and in fact that is the exact opposite of her character. She is deeply engrained in the social order of the world and gets along well with people. The one person she really can't stand is Snow because he acts outside of the social order and she can't stand that poo poo. A big chunk of why she's having problems early on is because she is taken outside of the social order and basically has no idea what to do and that just makes her more emotional, more angry and more pissed off. That is why her response is basically "gently caress you all, I'm going to murder poo poo" up until the point she has her "pet" realization. She is a hot-blooded and extremely emotional person who is prone to doing what she feels is right even if it isn't technically the best move. Her name is Lightning because... well, she basically took a name that described her. She isn't taciturn or brooding, she's incredibly quick to take action and wears her emotions on her sleeve. (And she will loving wreck you if you get in her way.) chumbler posted:It's honestly sounding like the English version is better from a storytelling and characterization perspective than the Japanese one. I don't know whether that says a lot or very little. Everything people have said about it makes it sound much much worse. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Jul 23, 2013 |
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Jul 23, 2013 00:56
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ImpAtom posted:This, as with most of Hope's plot, is an extremely Japanese thing. Hope's father is not a "total bro." He is effectively a salaryman who is barely around and who Hope resents because he barely knows him and they don't get along well. On top of that, he didn't actually go looking for his family after he heard what happened to them and they were part of the Purge because he was afraid of breaking social order. It is only when he finally is confronted with his son's condition and his wife's death directly that he is willing to overcome his dedication to the status quo and actually take action to help them. So he was scared. When push comes to shove he shows he does really care for his son and his son really cares for him. Japanaese thing or not, he does not seem to be a bad man at all. Defiance Industries posted:I think the writing is at least part of the problem. It's hard to get a real feeling for a character in a story where they have no real agency because they're being manipulated right up to the very end, and that's exactly what happens in FF13. That is the biggest problem with XIII's plot. Villain: Haha! Do this! Heroes: We won't do that! *they do that* Yeah, that happens in every FF pretty much but it doesn't span the entire goddam game. It doesn't persist all the way up to the final dungeon. The party know what the villain wants them to do and yet they take almost no steps to stop it. Granted, as I pointed out to XIII naysayers back when I first played the game, there really wasn't anything they could do. Barthandalus had effectively ensured Cocoon's destruction even without their help. But that still makes the story weak as hell because our heroes are weak as hell. Contrast with FFXII where the plot almost feels like it's elsewhere and our party are just bit players of no real significance.And yet, in the end, they save the day, overthrowing tyrannical gods and tyrannical humans. XIII is centered firmly on the actions of the party and you see almost nothing from non-party members. There's not even really a villain for the first several chapters and you can forget about side-characters who stick around and do anything worthwhile. The result is that, even while the heroes constantly feel like they're the focus of the story, they don't really do much to move the story onward. Everything is laid out for them and they accomplish very little. e: I just wanna say that, in defense of the English translation, Lightning was very angry, and outwardly so. For some reason people like myself and others just misremember her. I dunno what it is. I definitely wouldn't say she was broody in the game I played. ImpAtom posted:In the end he becomes a good man, but that is the end of his characterization. You were asking why Hope dislikes him and that is why. Hope didn't know the guy who threw away everything for his family. He knew him as the guy who refused to throw everything away for his family. This is driven home by Sazh, Snow and Lightning, all of whom went against the world to rescue their loved ones. AH, alright. That makes sense. Thank you. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Jul 23, 2013 |
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Jul 23, 2013 01:05
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NikkolasKing posted:So he was scared. When push comes to shove he shows he does really care for his son and his son really cares for him. In the end he becomes a good man, but that is the end of his characterization. You were asking why Hope dislikes him and that is why. Hope didn't know the guy who threw away everything for his family. He knew him as the guy who refused to throw everything away for his family. This is driven home by Sazh, Snow and Lightning, all of whom went against the world to rescue their loved ones.
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Jul 23, 2013 01:07
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That loving Sned posted:I've been replaying FFVII, and I just want to say gently caress Corel Prison. Even though I worked out that I was meant to go NorthEast, the first time I tried, I just ended up encountering the Chocobo cart. Each time you get lost in the desert, it takes ages to be rescued so you can get another attempt. Also, the thief enemies in the town area were really annoying if they escaped as soon as they stole something from you, like your precious 1/35" figurine. This is from a ways back (I'm slowly catching up with the thread) but I had to laugh at this because I remember how pissed off I was when I figured out that all you have to do to get out of the Corel Desert is...go to the right. That's it. Moving one screen to the right puts you in Dyne's junkyard. Moving in any other direction gets you lost in the desert cursing whoever designed such a lovely place. I will say though, I dunno who started that whole level design concept of "rooms that loop endlessly until you step through the right doorway that you'd have no idea is the right one aside from reading a guide / trial and error" but it's really obnoxious. VII, VIII (technically), and IX all did that. I'm sure others did too, but I replayed all the PS1 FFs recently so it's still fresh in my memory.
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Jul 23, 2013 01:47
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I wouldn't really call English Lightning brooding, she just seemed very annoyed in the beginning parts of the game, and I can't really blame her. Just look at the people she has to deal with, an rear end in a top hat that wants to marry her sister, some kid, a really annoying teenage girl (who ends up being the second best character) and Sazh, a guy who has no idea what the gently caress is going on. I didn't find myself feeling she was out of line.
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Jul 23, 2013 01:59
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Momomo posted:I wouldn't really call English Lightning brooding, she just seemed very annoyed in the beginning parts of the game, and I can't really blame her. Just look at the people she has to deal with, an rear end in a top hat that wants to marry her sister, some kid, a really annoying teenage girl (who ends up being the second best character) and Sazh, a guy who has no idea what the gently caress is going on. I didn't find myself feeling she was out of line. Worst birthday ever. 
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Jul 23, 2013 02:02
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Yeah, Lightning didn't seem brooding or anti-social as people who say "She's a girl Cloud!" would think. She's driven, and obviously pissed at the situation she's in, being forced into a fugitive life after basically being a hard-core reservist who was dedicated to the social order. She didn't seem super emotional to me either, though. As much as I hated the first half of that game for being one giant forward motion with only half the combat system implemented, the character development in those segments was pretty good. Ha! Now that I think about it, I liked the obnoxious but pretty cinematics and kind of loathed the combat in the first half of the game, but found the story kind of fall to the side (besides Fang and Vanille's stuff) a bit once everything opened up and became good in terms of combat.
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Jul 23, 2013 02:36
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Ah, the Squall Defense. "He/she's an rear end in a top hat because he/she's surrounded by idiots." I mean, I don't think she really cared at all about Vanille, and I can easily understand her annoyance with Sazh, but Snow was a likable enough fellow, even if he was a doofus. And Hope? Well, kids have enough trouble dealing with the loss of a parent under the best of circumstances, let alone seeing it first hand and in the middle of a warzone. I took it for granted Lightning was just indulging his revenge fantasies and didn't actually support them. (she probably said something to this effect at some point - I honestly can't remember) Maybe she just kinda hoped other poo poo would come up and he'd get passed the Anger phase or whatever. In fact, her sort of maternal care for Hope was the only time I really felt for Lightning's character. I thought XIII's sole saving grace was characterization and character interaction. Light and HOpe and Sazh and Vanille were great matches for both drama and some comedy. And I agree with the earlier poster that Feng...was just kinda there. I really hate when RPGs introduce characters too late.
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Jul 23, 2013 03:00
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Snow shacking up with Serah is probably what highlighted any negative aspects of his character to Lightning. I mean, it wouldn't be entirely unreasonable to keep a watchful eye on your sister's fiance if you didn't think he was going to do right by her. A little unfair, but hey. Yeah, as far as Lightning goes I was pleasantly surprised by her characterization. Hope I was annoyed with, but eh. I've rarely come to expect good things from the 'young' characters of the party. Haven't really started 13-2 yet but I'm not really looking forward to it. VIII was all the time-traveling universe-spanning shenanigans I could handle.
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Jul 23, 2013 03:07
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NikkolasKing posted:Ah, the Squall Defense. "He/she's an rear end in a top hat because he/she's surrounded by idiots." Squall wasn't an rear end in a top hat because he was surrounded by idiots, though. He was an rear end in a top hat because he had unresolved abandonment issues that led to him pushing people away in order to avoid getting hurt. The fact that he was surrounded by idiots was pure coincidence. 
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Jul 23, 2013 03:21
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NikkolasKing posted:I mean, I don't think she really cared at all about Vanille, and I can easily understand her annoyance with Sazh, but Snow was a likable enough fellow, even if he was a doofus. And Hope? Well, kids have enough trouble dealing with the loss of a parent under the best of circumstances, let alone seeing it first hand and in the middle of a warzone. Snow was much more dangerous than some doofus, since he and his friends made an anti government group that put them in danger. He was a very naive guy that thought being bright and cheery was enough to support himself and his future wife. I would not want my barely-of-age sister getting hitched with someone like that.
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Jul 23, 2013 03:26
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The best parts of FFXIII were Sazh, Snow being a good hearted idiot (this was only a good thing around 25% of the time), and Serah's hotness. Like, holy poo poo. FFXIII-2 just amped it up. But I mean drat, I can almost understand hentai when I look at her. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 23, 2013 03:28
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Gologle posted:The best parts of FFXIII were Sazh, Snow being a good hearted idiot (this was only a good thing around 25% of the time), and Serah's hotness. Like, holy poo poo. FFXIII-2 just amped it up. But I mean drat, I can almost understand hentai when I look at her. What the gently caress?
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Jul 23, 2013 03:31
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Momomo posted:Snow was much more dangerous than some doofus, since he and his friends made an anti government group that put them in danger. He was a very naive guy that thought being bright and cheery was enough to support himself and his future wife. I would not want my barely-of-age sister getting hitched with someone like that. Without Snows dumb NORA group, they were all going to die. They were trying to save people from the Purge, which was a government euphemism for execution. "Sanctum logic. They conjured up the Purge to eliminate a threat. I mean, why carry the danger all the way to Pulse? Why not just stamp it out here? Execution masquerading as exile. That's all the Purge ever was."
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Jul 23, 2013 03:31
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Gologle posted:The best parts of FFXIII were Sazh, Snow being a good hearted idiot (this was only a good thing around 25% of the time), and Serah's hotness. Like, holy poo poo. FFXIII-2 just amped it up. But I mean drat, I can almost understand hentai when I look at her. Are you Toriyama?    Dude's head over heels for his own creation.
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Jul 23, 2013 03:36
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bobtheconqueror posted:Yeah, Lightning didn't seem brooding or anti-social as people who say "She's a girl Cloud!" would think. She's driven, and obviously pissed at the situation she's in, being forced into a fugitive life after basically being a hard-core reservist who was dedicated to the social order. She didn't seem super emotional to me either, though. As much as I hated the first half of that game for being one giant forward motion with only half the combat system implemented, the character development in those segments was pretty good. Doesn't "she's a girl cloud" come from developer interviews? I remember reading something like that and thinking how low they were setting their sights to describe a character just in terms of one that already exists. Like when someone says that a character is "Han Solo but ______ style" I know they'll be written like poo poo.
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Jul 23, 2013 03:43
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Defiance Industries posted:Doesn't "she's a girl cloud" come from developer interviews? I remember reading something like that and thinking how low they were setting their sights to describe a character just in terms of one that already exists. Like when someone says that a character is "Han Solo but ______ style" I know they'll be written like poo poo. People say she's a female Cloud but she's nothing like him, unless you count Advent Children Cloud as "the Cloud". I remember a picture where someone took Cloud's face and put it over Lightnings and it almost fit perfectly so they have one thing in common I guess. She's such a dumb character and I don't know why she gets 3 games.
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Jul 23, 2013 03:46
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Defiance Industries posted:Doesn't "she's a girl cloud" come from developer interviews? I remember reading something like that and thinking how low they were setting their sights to describe a character just in terms of one that already exists. Like when someone says that a character is "Han Solo but ______ style" I know they'll be written like poo poo. They were talking purely about her design. If they really did try to emulate Cloud though, it's as close to AC Cloud as AC Cloud is to the original.
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Jul 23, 2013 03:48
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Overbite posted:People say she's a female Cloud but she's nothing like him, unless you count Advent Children Cloud as "the Cloud". I remember a picture where someone took Cloud's face and put it over Lightnings and it almost fit perfectly so they have one thing in common I guess. Toriyama thinks she is great and for some reason Toriyama is making games instead of sucking dick for hamburger coupons like most people at his level of competency.
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Jul 23, 2013 03:51
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Momomo posted:They were talking purely about her design. If they really did try to emulate Cloud though, it's as close to AC Cloud as AC Cloud is to the original. Yeah, the spiky hair on the front of the face, the suspenders (or suspender looking things in Lightning's case), the single shoulderpad, sleeveless, hardcore boots. That sort of thing.
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Jul 23, 2013 04:09
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Defiance Industries posted:Doesn't "she's a girl cloud" come from developer interviews? I remember reading something like that and thinking how low they were setting their sights to describe a character just in terms of one that already exists. Like when someone says that a character is "Han Solo but ______ style" I know they'll be written like poo poo. That interview was literally only talking about the fact that she is a soldier. They compared her to Cloud and Squall.
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Jul 23, 2013 04:12
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Overbite posted:She's such a dumb character and I don't know why she gets 3 games. Why oh why did square make 3 games with such a lovely cast? Lightning is devoid of any personality whatsoever. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sm-vhhqECi8 I can't think of a less interesting character except maybe Vaan. Vaan played such a tiny part in 12 though I doubt you could really call him the main character. This game although pretty to look at was completely lacking. It felt like one big dungeon crawler. There were no cities to explore, no npcs to interact with, no item shop or weapon shop or anything really. I want to forget 13-2 ever happened. Serah a deformed moogle bow and a boy from the future who loaded his pants make a mockery of a classic Square time traveling game. Then we have FF13-3: Majora's Mask. I don't see how 13-2 and Majora's Mask made it and Versus (FF15) got thrown to the back burner. I am hoping 15 is as awesome as it looks, otherwise it'll be the death of jrpgs.
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Jul 23, 2013 04:34
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Seemenaked posted:I am hoping 15 is as awesome as it looks, otherwise it'll be the death of jrpgs. You do know that a lot of other companies make JRPGs, right? Like, better ones than Square-Enix has basically from the start. Even Square-Enix makes better JRPGs than Final Fantasy. (Dragon Quest, for one.)
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Jul 23, 2013 04:41
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I played Dragon Quest 8, the supposed "best one" and it was the same awful grindy bullshit as always. FF has problems but Dragon Quest's gameplay is about as engaging as browsing a DVD menu.
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Jul 23, 2013 04:47
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Rocket Slime is actually the best Dragon Quest.
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Jul 23, 2013 04:48
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I don't think there's been a grindy DQ game since 2. Or the Monster series, if you count obsessively fusing new monsters as grinding.
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Jul 23, 2013 04:52
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Defiance Industries posted:I played Dragon Quest 8, the supposed "best one" and it was the same awful grindy bullshit as always. FF has problems but Dragon Quest's gameplay is about as engaging as browsing a DVD menu. You don't need to grind in DQ8 at all except for maybe the optional bosses near the end though? I mean you can farm Metal Slimes if you want but it's pretty unnecessary. The game's more about abusing Tension than anything else. alcharagia posted:Rocket Slime is actually the best Dragon Quest. This however is true.
ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 04:57 on Jul 23, 2013 |
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Jul 23, 2013 04:53
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Lightning really isn't like Cloud. She's not really like any main FF character that I can think of. She and Ashe are superficially similar insofar as they both start off really angry and take it out on other people. Although in Ashe's case, her bitchiness towards Basch was quite a bit more justified (as far as she knew) than Lightning's animosity towards SNow. But after that, all resemblances end. Cloud, no matter the incarnation, isn't at all like Light. He's not angry or over0motional or very upfront. AC Cloud and VII Cloud both ran away from their problems while Light was pretty much defined by the fact she'd charge right into them, even if that was kinda stupid and crazy. Speaking of which, here's something I asked way, way back when on another forum when I first played XIII. What teh gently caress was up with Lightning asking the door to open and let her and Sazh out? That did happen right? And it was never once explained in any cutscene, right?
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Jul 23, 2013 05:00
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NikkolasKing posted:Speaking of which, here's something I asked way, way back when on another forum when I first played XIII. What teh gently caress was up with Lightning asking the door to open and let her and Sazh out? That did happen right? And it was never once explained in any cutscene, right? Err, what do you mean by that? Which scene?
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Jul 23, 2013 05:01
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Defiance Industries posted:I played Dragon Quest 8, the supposed "best one" and it was the same awful grindy bullshit as always. FF has problems but Dragon Quest's gameplay is about as engaging as browsing a DVD menu. I don't know what part of DQ8 you had to grind for because that game is kind of really easy. Even the hardest boss fight (Probably Dhoulmagus) wasn't hard if you just remembered to actually use buff magic.
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Jul 23, 2013 05:11
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:I don't know what part of DQ8 you had to grind for because that game is kind of really easy. Even the hardest boss fight (Probably Dhoulmagus) wasn't hard if you just remembered to actually use buff magic. That is usually the caveat that most people miss when I hear people complain about DQ games being "grindy". I heard it a lot about DQ9, too (which is a bit grindy, but also has super easy metals available). Every time I ask if they were using buffs and debuffs, the answer was always no. I know DQ9 has Disruptive Wave, but that doesn't wipe out debuffs!
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Jul 23, 2013 05:13
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NikkolasKing posted:Lightning really isn't like Cloud. She's not really like any main FF character that I can think of. She and Ashe are superficially similar insofar as they both start off really angry and take it out on other people. Although in Ashe's case, her bitchiness towards Basch was quite a bit more justified (as far as she knew) than Lightning's animosity towards SNow. I'm pretty sure the sister you've taken care of since you were little ones not only getting into marriage when she's still a teenager and with an idiot who runs a resistance group that can get her killed or in danger at enemy moment is a good enough reason to dislike Snow, among other things. Oh and the fact he calls her "Sis" knowing how much she doesn't like him probably isn't helping endear him to her. EDIT: This isn't directly towards you, but there are so many bad characters in FFXIII and Lightning is not among them. She's got a pretty clearly defined goal, personality, and reaction towards characters. Her and Sazh are probably the most well built characters in the game in terms of motivation, character development, and overall not being complete loving idiots. Lightning's not the best main character, but she's hardly one of the worst or even remotely in that echelon of quality. Captain Baal fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Jul 23, 2013 |
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Jul 23, 2013 05:14
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ImpAtom posted:Err, what do you mean by that? Which scene? I dunno exactly. Weren't her and Sazh like, captured somewhere in the beginning? She asks him to stay back or whatever and he think she's gonna blast her way out. What she does however is speak very quietly and they are let out. I think she asked to be let out but I honestly can't remember what exactly she said.
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Jul 23, 2013 05:16
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NikkolasKing posted:I dunno exactly. Weren't her and Sazh like, captured somewhere in the beginning? She asks him to stay back or whatever and he think she's gonna blast her way out. What she does however is speak very quietly and they are let out. I think she asked to be let out but I honestly can't remember what exactly she said. I honestly can't think of the scene you mean, sorry.
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Jul 23, 2013 05:21
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Kyrosiris posted:That is usually the caveat that most people miss when I hear people complain about DQ games being "grindy". I heard it a lot about DQ9, too (which is a bit grindy, but also has super easy metals available). Every time I ask if they were using buffs and debuffs, the answer was always no. And by the time you get to any fight that might be difficult everyone in 8 besides maybe Cockney McTheif have full party buffs. Jessica alone can basically half enemy damage for 3 turns with one spell!
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Jul 23, 2013 05:23
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NikkolasKing posted:I dunno exactly. Weren't her and Sazh like, captured somewhere in the beginning? She asks him to stay back or whatever and he think she's gonna blast her way out. What she does however is speak very quietly and they are let out. I think she asked to be let out but I honestly can't remember what exactly she said. The door is a Fal'cie and it's in a bad mood so she apologizes to it.
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Jul 23, 2013 05:23
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:And by the time you get to any fight that might be difficult everyone in 8 besides maybe Cockney McTheif have full party buffs. Jessica alone can basically half enemy damage for 3 turns with one spell! Yeah, and DQ9 had some great buffs too. The only issue was multi-target attack increases, but eventually you got Gritty Ditty and that took care of anything attack-wise. Only thing I'd have ever asked for was a Kablunt or something (MT attack decrease) and maybe for Sages to have access to either Blunt or Acceleratle.
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Jul 23, 2013 05:31
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