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BdaaN posted:They don't ever bring up the throwing away your humanity to defeat the tiants in the manga. It's purley to support his fire rage titan mode. When the anime continues we probably won't see anymore fire titan or berserk eren trying to eat people. They added the Jean and Armin conversation to steer away from that when they pick it up again. After Annie is captured, we switch briefly back to Jean and Armin, where Jean thinks that more people could have been let in on the plan, and Armin thinks that tough choices have to be made and that there's no way of knowing how they'll turn out. (Also, Shallot and Ness ) Armin thinks that only those who can throw away their humanity can effect real change. Most recently, the narrator himself goes here's a man who will stain his hands with blood. The next chapter, Armin is clearly shown to be adopting Erwin's line of thinking ("what can I give up?") when he lies to Bert about Annie's torture. Where I think the anime went wrong is showing Eren going through this struggle, since he hasn't consciously thought about it at all. yellowyams posted:The concept of throwing away your humanity is something that's mostly been kept to Armin and Erwin in the comic although it is a larger theme in the work itself but I wouldn't say it's either praised or condemned. There's a scene in chapter 27 I think, where both Jean and Eren reject the "ends justify the means" mentality which is part of why I was kind of taken aback when the anime had Eren agree with Armin's bullshit reasoning even though he'd been shown to have moved on from it.
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# ? Oct 11, 2013 07:41 |
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# ? Apr 27, 2024 01:47 |
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Eren is literally (literally) the protagonist of DOOM: Repercussions of Evil.
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# ? Oct 11, 2013 07:48 |
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MeLKoR posted:even when they are seemingly about to die and she's opening up to him, telling him how much he has meant to her his reaction is once again to physically push her aside and dismiss her feelings. Their last real reminder of home and the closest thing they had to a guardian just got eaten right in front of them and they're 10 feet from the Titan that ate him. "Not the right time" wouldn't even begin to describe how inappropriate that was for the situation. Plus, consider how she views that scarf. It's basically been established to be a security blanket for her and there's no way Eren doesn't realize that. How does Eren reply when she thanks him for wrapping her in it, essentially for "protecting" her in the panel (not literally, but it's apparent she draws a lot of strength from that scarf)? That he'll do it as many times as he needs to. That page you just linked is Eren straight up telling Mikasa he is going to protect her and for once he delivers on it.
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# ? Oct 11, 2013 07:54 |
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yellowyams posted:He wasn't pushing her aside that swishy movement was meant to indicate he stood up it even had the ザ sound effect, oh my god. Btw, he stood up to face the titan so maybe they both wouldn't loving die. He was comforting her by reiterating what he told her when they first met through his actions. Come on... Oh my god you're right, how could I have missed the ザ sound effect?! Now I'll have to comb all the times he pushes her for the ザ sound effect. TheKingofSprings posted:That page you just linked is Eren straight up telling Mikasa he is going to protect her and for once he delivers on it. MeLKoR fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Oct 11, 2013 |
# ? Oct 11, 2013 07:56 |
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MeLKoR posted:
I thought that page was a pro-birth control argument. vv
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# ? Oct 11, 2013 08:00 |
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I added in the sound effect comment as a third edit just to clear up that it was definitely not about interpreting bad art, it doesn't change that what he's actually doing is pretty drat obvious even without it. I won't disagree that he can be testy with Mikasa because she tends to suffocate him and it makes him feel inept when he already has issues about being powerless. Their relationship is unhealthy and the comic portrays it as such for the most part. I think calling it "abusive" is a stretch but maybe I'm forgetting a scene, it's been a while. I'm trying to think back on their scenes together and I remembered that the lovely online translation has him say a bunch of weird awful poo poo to her including gendered slurs that weren't in the original text so if that's your basis it's not actually accurate. I'm really not sure why they felt the need to add that stuff in. yellowyams fucked around with this message at 08:44 on Oct 11, 2013 |
# ? Oct 11, 2013 08:04 |
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MeLKoR posted:Oh my god you're right, how could I have missed the ザ sound effect?! Now I'll have to comb all the times he pushes her for the ザ sound effect. Show some examples because the one you linked you woefully misinterpreted.
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# ? Oct 11, 2013 08:31 |
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Kild posted:Show some examples because the one you linked you woefully misinterpreted. What, examples of Eren pushing/talking down to Mikasa/Armin when he gets his panties in a bunch? You realize there is no way I can just re-read 50 chapters at the drop of a hat, right? e: On the top of my mind, when they are escaping by boat and he's getting all riled up Armin gets up to comfort him and gets pushed back in a visually similar* way. Later when they are having the food discussion Eren really starts demeaning Armin and gets punched in the face by Mikasa. He also talked to her like poo poo if I'm not mistaken when they are getting ready to move into Trost. There were plenty of other instances, it just became much more noticeable the second time I saw the anime and has been increasingly bothering me. I get it, dude is angry. Mother in a titan belly, I know - it's serious. I just wish that after 5 years he stopped taking it out on those around him. * I've only read the manga from the Annie confrontation onward. Eren's movement when he pushes Mikasa in chapter 50 looked like his movement when he pushes Armin back in episode 2 of the anime. Dude likes pushing people around when he gets mad, which in his case is all the time. MeLKoR fucked around with this message at 08:53 on Oct 11, 2013 |
# ? Oct 11, 2013 08:38 |
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MeLKoR posted:What, examples of Eren pushing/talking down to Mikasa/Armin when he gets his panties in a bunch? You realize there is no way I can just re-read 50 chapters at the drop of a hat, right? Just give one good example. The one you gave was fairly well refuted so right now your argument is, I think I remember this happened, and you've cast a bit of doubt on your interpretive skills. I haven't really staked out a claim on this, but hand waving it as "I can't read 50 chapters," isn't particularly compelling. Certainly you're drawing on something that happened as a source.
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# ? Oct 11, 2013 08:47 |
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MeLKoR posted:What, examples of Eren pushing/talking down to Mikasa/Armin when he gets his panties in a bunch? You realize there is no way I can just re-read 50 chapters at the drop of a hat, right? I don't remember him ever talking or pushing Armin. He occasionally gets annoyed by Mikasa because she makes it seem like shes looking down on him but he just doesn't know how she feels about him. He think she see's him as a child or her little brother instead of her equal. An example being when she basically tells him he's not fit to be a solider and should give up his dream. I'm guessing their relationship will be different after chapter 50 assuming he connected the dots. BdaaN fucked around with this message at 08:59 on Oct 11, 2013 |
# ? Oct 11, 2013 08:54 |
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He's probably thinking about the bit where he headbutted her when she tried to stick around and protect him instead of following her orders, back when Bert kicked down the second wall.
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# ? Oct 11, 2013 08:55 |
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AnonSpore posted:He's probably thinking about the bit where he headbutted her when she tried to stick around and protect him, back when Bert kicked down the second wall. That was a little uncalled for but mikasa was also unintentionally being kind of an rear end. Also tentions where high since it was their first battle and the second wall had just been breached, so that may have caused him to over react a bit.
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# ? Oct 11, 2013 08:56 |
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BdaaN posted:I don't remember him ever talking or pushing Armin. quote:He occasionally gets annoyed by Mikasa because she makes it seem like shes looking down on him but he just doesn't know how she feels about him. quote:An example being when she basically tells him he's not fit to be a solider and should give up his dream. quote:I'm guessing their relationship will be different after chapter 50 assuming he connected the dots. e: BdaaN posted:That was a little uncalled for but mikasa was also unintentionally being kind of an rear end. Also tentions where high since it was their first battle and the second wall had just been breached, so that may have caused him to over react a bit. MeLKoR fucked around with this message at 09:04 on Oct 11, 2013 |
# ? Oct 11, 2013 09:01 |
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MeLKoR posted:
Are you seriously linking that picture as an argument? because it's a really bad one. BdaaN fucked around with this message at 09:06 on Oct 11, 2013 |
# ? Oct 11, 2013 09:03 |
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The scene in episode 2 was anime only but even still I think it's important to take into account that it happened directly after the wall fell and Hannes told him he couldn't do anything because he was too weak. All the stuff he said to Armin was him projecting about his frustration with his own weakness, not that it wasn't still a lovely thing to do. You don't have to like it but the characters aren't going to have the same detachment to the situation as you, and Eren reacted as emotionally as someone who had just lost everything within the last few days would. To be fair, I think Eren in the anime was pretty drat unlikable as well but this thread is for the comic so your post kind of confused me, if you really just came in where the anime left off it's understandable though. e: oh, maybe you're talking about a different scene but I think that tiny little movement was anime only as well and like literally within minutes of The Most Traumatic event so whatever. MeLKoR posted:My problem is precisely that it didn't just happen that day. Years later he's still doing it. What... Where? If you're talking about chapter 50 that wasn't a shove. yellowyams fucked around with this message at 09:11 on Oct 11, 2013 |
# ? Oct 11, 2013 09:05 |
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BdaaN posted:I'm not sure if this is a troll or not.. "I don't remember him pushing Armin" *picture of him pushing Armin* "I'm not sure if this is a troll or not." What? yellowyams posted:The scene in episode 2 was anime only but even still I think it's important to take into account that it happened directly after the wall fell and Hannes told him he couldn't do anything because he was too weak. All the stuff he said to Armin was him projecting about his frustration with his own weakness, not that it wasn't still a lovely thing to do. You don't have to like it but the characters aren't going to have the same detachment to the situation as you, and Eren reacted as emotionally as someone who had just lost everything within the last few days would. To be fair, I think Eren in the anime was pretty drat unlikable as well but this thread is for the comic so your post kind of confused me, if you really just came in where the anime left off it's understandable though. I'll read chapters 1 to 33 as soon as I get the chance. Only reason I didn't was that people kept saying the anime was a faithful adaptation until the Annie confrontation in the tunnel so I assumed his actions were the same in both. Sorry if that wasn't the case. MeLKoR fucked around with this message at 09:10 on Oct 11, 2013 |
# ? Oct 11, 2013 09:05 |
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change my name posted:They can't move because they aren't exposed to the sun. The titans ordered to attack the castle had no trouble moving about at night.
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# ? Oct 11, 2013 09:11 |
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MeLKoR posted:"I don't remember him pushing Armin" It's a really poor example. You're severely over exaggerating his aggressiveness towards Mikasa and Armin. Yes i agree he's a hot head but he's not nearly as violent as you make him out to be.
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# ? Oct 11, 2013 09:12 |
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BdaaN posted:It's a really poor example. You're severely over exaggerating his aggressiveness towards Mikasa and Armin. Yes i agree he's a hot head but he's not nearly as violent as you make him out to be. I never said he got home drunk and belted them, I said he pushes people around and belittles them when he gets angry which is a lot of the time. I'll drop this derail until I have time to re-read the entire manga and rewatch the anime so I can source my argument with more examples. e: I still love the series, it's the first manga I have read and the first anime I really liked, I just don't like Eren all that much because I think he's an rear end in a top hat. Mikasa lost her family twice and even though she has some serious issues at least she's not an rear end in a top hat to those around her. e2: At one point Mikasa, after being told Eren was dead, regrets having gotten the recruits all riled up and leading them to their deaths without any concern for their lives. When has Eren ever shown such introspection? MeLKoR fucked around with this message at 09:23 on Oct 11, 2013 |
# ? Oct 11, 2013 09:17 |
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MeLKoR posted:e2: At one point Mikasa, after being told Eren was dead, regrets having gotten the recruits all riled up and leading them to their deaths without any concern for their lives. When has Eren ever shown such introspection? I don't know what your standards for "introspective" are but he does reflect when he's made a bad decision. It's okay to just not like a character. It's alright. You don't need a reason, so don't worry so much about trying to prove why he's a bad character that kind of thing is super subjective anyway. yellowyams fucked around with this message at 09:37 on Oct 11, 2013 |
# ? Oct 11, 2013 09:33 |
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yellowyams posted:I don't know what your standards for "introspective" are but he does reflect when he's made a bad decision. Yeah, only problem being that it wasn't a bad decision at the time. Disobeying a direct order from his commanding officers and the requests of his team members, loving up the entire plan just because he felt like it, that would have been a terrible decision. He'd probably get into some serious poo poo even if it had succeeded because it would be evidence that he was unwilling to follow orders, exactly what they demanded in exchange for letting him live. Hindsight is 20/20 but at that point he made the right call. Shame the plan didn't work out but that wasn't his fault, if every soldier started disobeying orders and following their gut feelings things would go to poo poo pretty quick.
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# ? Oct 11, 2013 09:39 |
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MeLKoR posted:Yeah, only problem being that it wasn't a bad decision at the time. Disobeying a direct order from his commanding officers and the requests of his team members, loving up the entire plan just because he felt like it, that would have been a terrible decision. He wasn't forbidden from transforming. Levi told him to do it if he thinks it's the right decision. It clearly wasn't the right decision because they ended up dying. BdaaN fucked around with this message at 09:44 on Oct 11, 2013 |
# ? Oct 11, 2013 09:40 |
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BdaaN posted:He wasn't forbidden from transforming. Levi told him to do it if he thinks it's the right decision. They asked him to believe in them and they died for it. Levi didn't have the authority to call that shot. In fact the higher ups were getting ready to gently caress Eren after the expedition even though he did follow orders. The plan never called for him to take an active role in the capture just to serve as bait. He had a damocles sword over his head and was told to prove he could be controlled and part of the team, they spent 2 episodes drilling this point home, that he must become part of the team. "Oh yeah he disobeyed us and hosed our plan to lure the female titan into a trap" would go over like a lead balloon. MeLKoR fucked around with this message at 09:53 on Oct 11, 2013 |
# ? Oct 11, 2013 09:46 |
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Yeah in that situation I don't think there was a "right" call. I'm pretty unconvinced Eren transforming and fighting Annie would've resulted in him succeeding given how he's pretty much always gotten punked by her. He lost to her when he fought her later on after the rest of the Recon Corps were wiped out. And even if he had ignored the order and "won" and they'd caught her, he would've ended up losing the trust of everyone around him that asked for him to trust them to be able to handle it. It was a lose/lose situation. Not that I agree Eren is some unfeeling ball of rage or some sort of abusive person, but I don't think the forest campaign was really a great example in general.
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# ? Oct 11, 2013 09:48 |
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MeLKoR posted:Levi didn't have the authority to call that shot. In fact the higher ups were getting ready to gently caress Eren after the expedition even though he did follow orders. This was after the plan had failed and everything went to poo poo, he could of transformed then but they still convinced him to believe in them. He was being called to the capitol again because the whole point of the expedition was to see if he was a valuable asset to humanity, and the expedition failed miserably. However erwin suspected the titan was Annie thanks to Armins information and devised a plan that was kept secret from everyone but a few. After they captured Annie the charges against Eren were dropped. I really think you should re-read because you seem to only remeber bits and pieces of events. Yasser Arafatwa posted:Yeah in that situation I don't think there was a "right" call. I'm pretty unconvinced Eren transforming and fighting Annie would've resulted in him succeeding given how he's pretty much always gotten punked by her. He lost to her when he fought her later on after the rest of the Recon Corps were wiped out. And even if he had ignored the order and "won" and they'd caught her, he would've ended up losing the trust of everyone around him that asked for him to trust them to be able to handle it. It was a lose/lose situation. He would of fought with them instead of by himself and probably would of won. Just how they did it when they finally captured Annie, he never beat her by himself, he only fought her to buy everyone time. They defeated her in a group effort between Eren and Mikasa when he threw her far enough to reach Annie on the wall and cut off her fingers. He then pinned her down while everyone else cut off her head. BdaaN fucked around with this message at 10:06 on Oct 11, 2013 |
# ? Oct 11, 2013 09:52 |
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MeLKoR posted:Levi didn't have the authority to call that shot. In fact the higher ups were getting ready to gently caress Eren after the expedition even though he did follow orders. You do realize that was only a guise to draw out the female titan? The whole point of the expedition was the draw out any enemies lurking from within the military by using Eren as bait. It's even commented that it was a really weird they were leaving so early with all those new recruits. Levi only answers to Erwin and Erwin will probably side with Levi on any decision he makes. e: http://www.mangastream.to/shingeki-no-kyojin-chapter-1-page-91.html Heres that scene in the manga btw. He just stands up says gently caress all titans then timeskip. Kild fucked around with this message at 09:59 on Oct 11, 2013 |
# ? Oct 11, 2013 09:52 |
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BdaaN posted:This was after the plan had failed and everything went to poo poo, he could of transformed then but they still convinced him to believe in them. Transforming then would be even dumber than before. In fact he should have kept fleeing even after his team was dead. They gave their lives to get him time to get away but instead he let his temper get the best of him again and if it wasn't for Mikasa and Levi saving his rear end he would have been hosed. quote:He was being called to the capitol again because the whole point of the expedition was to see if he was a valuable asset to humanity, and the expedition failed miserably. quote:However erwin suspected the titan was Annie thanks to Armins information and devised a plan that was kept secret from everyone but a few. quote:I really think you should re-read because you seem to only remeber bits and pieces of events. disclaimer: at least this was the order of events in the anime Kild posted:You do realize that was only a guise to draw out the female titan? The whole point of the expedition was the draw out any enemies lurking from within the military by using Eren as bait. It's even commented that it was a really weird they were leaving so early with all those new recruits. How is "follow orders" the wrong decision in the military? I mean, hindsight is 20/20 but that's it. gently caress, I liked that he followed orders, it was a step on him controlling himself and becoming a valuable player for team humanity. "I should do what I want all the time instead of becoming part of a larger effort" seems like a really terrible lesson. e: But yeah, he should have totally ignored all the previous chapters they spend drilling that he must obey orders if he wanted to stay alive and just go "gently caress it, I know best ". MeLKoR fucked around with this message at 10:26 on Oct 11, 2013 |
# ? Oct 11, 2013 10:07 |
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Sorry if that was a bad example, I'm throwing in the towel because I also don't want to go digging through the whole comic but there are definitely other moments where he shows awareness over his mistakes, in fact a huge chunk of his character arc is his guilt over people dying for or because of him, not that Isayama did a particularly good job showing it so I'm not gonna fight anyone who doesn't see it but it starts with Jean confronting him about it before the expedition and there are various little scenes sprinkled throughout the rest that mention or at least suggest it, pretty sure the chapter before this recent one had him wigging out over his gently caress up as well. I don't think it counts as an example since we didn't actually get to hear his thoughts but the scene where he's crying after the expedition failed is a good character moment imo, you can infer a lot from it without it outright stating anything. The part with Levi was dumb and overkill though, it actually made me laugh. I'll just reiterate this and then I'm done, you can't control what you like or dislike and there is nothing wrong with just flat-out disliking a character. There are many things I dislike for no good reason and I am not obligated to like them just because people say I should. Likewise, this story is not very well-written but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy it or the characters. You don't need to validate your opinions to anyone unless you want to (but you seem kind of irritated so I'm just assuming you don't). I hope this doesn't come across as patronizing and I apologize if it does. Just like or dislike what you want, man! It's no biggie.
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# ? Oct 11, 2013 10:28 |
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I get what you're saying but I think that this instance is not really open to interpretation. Levi's words were literally "i know you are an uncontrollable monster and not just because of your power. Now, you can choose to believe in me, believe in your team and believe in the whole scouting legion or you can do as you please and transform already". I mean, am I really the only one that thinks this wasn't carte blanche to disobey orders and transform at all? And yeah, he was crying afterwards because he regretted his decision, despite Levi telling him that that was precisely the only thing he shouldn't do. Seems like a terrible lesson/moral, instead of learning to become a team player what he learns is to gently caress what everyone else thinks or plans and go with his guts. That's a recipe for disaster right there. Yeah, Jean calls him out on his bullshit several times (Jean is probably my favorite character because he's the one that grew the most) but Eren seemingly doesn't take much from it. gently caress, he got his team killed on Trost, he should have at least learned something from that. Every time he decides to play it by ear people end up dead but he just digs in deeper.
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# ? Oct 11, 2013 10:44 |
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MeLKoR posted:Yeah, Jean calls him out on his bullshit several times (Jean is probably my favorite character because he's the one that grew the most) but Eren seemingly doesn't take much from it. gently caress, he got his team killed on Trost, he should have at least learned something from that. Every time he decides to play it by ear people end up dead but he just digs in deeper. Well, he learned he could transform into a titan.
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# ? Oct 11, 2013 10:56 |
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Coughing Hobo posted:Well, he learned he could transform into a titan. That's actually pretty important I'd say.
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# ? Oct 11, 2013 11:07 |
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MeLKoR posted:
The only time he played it by ear was during Trost. After that he followed orders like you've stated and then after that he's been kidnapped. So I guess so?
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# ? Oct 11, 2013 11:48 |
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Kild posted:The only time he played it by ear was during Trost. After that he followed orders like you've stated and then after that he's been kidnapped. So I guess so? Not if we're back to "Eran powerful, Eren smash puny titans". But granted, I think this is mostly a fault in the anime, the manga did the fight with Annie much better. In the manga you can see the scouting legion desperately climbing the wall right behind Annie and then the Misaka toss was an awesome touch that felt like he was working in a team. In the anime the regular humans acted independently (the trap) and later were just spectators until Mikasa and Levi come out of nowhere. From then onward he's been forced into a passive role so not many opportunities to gently caress up. We'll see I guess but I really hope this doesn't become a titan vs titan show. Tiny humans fighting against vastly more powerful enemies is what makes it for me, I want more Armin, Jean, Mikasa and Erwin, not more Eren smash. Ie, more apocalyptic story instead of teenager power fantasy. MeLKoR fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Oct 11, 2013 |
# ? Oct 11, 2013 13:15 |
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ArchangeI posted:The titans ordered to attack the castle had no trouble moving about at night. To elaborate a little more on this, those were being commanded by Ape Titan which theoretically is a 'coordinator' or whatever it is that Eren is also supposed to be. Presumably Titans enter a sleep mode of sorts when the sun goes out, which is overriden by receiving direct orders. So Eren could probably wake them up and tear down all the walls without it being his intention to do so. But here's the problem with that theory: if Titan commands worked like that, they probably would have responded to the Ape Titan back then. Heck, if he knew the walls were made of Titans at all, Ape probably would have made a hole in wall Rose at the time, instead of going through the trouble of climbing it up and down. GimmickMan fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Oct 11, 2013 |
# ? Oct 11, 2013 13:19 |
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TK-31 posted:To elaborate a little more on this, those were being commanded by Ape Titan which theoretically is a 'coordinator' or whatever it is that Eren is also supposed to be. Presumably Titans enter a sleep mode of sorts when the sun goes out, which is overriden by receiving direct orders. Depends on his mission. If it was just a raid to gather intelligence, it wouldn't make sense to wake the 50 meter classes. Or maybe the wall titans are yet another faction he has no control over or does not want to disturb.
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# ? Oct 11, 2013 13:23 |
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TK-31 posted:To elaborate a little more on this, those were being commanded by Ape Titan which theoretically is a 'coordinator' or whatever it is that Eren is also supposed to be. Presumably Titans enter a sleep mode of sorts when the sun goes out, which is overriden by receiving direct orders. Now I get it. The sun is the Titanest Titan of them all, commanding the other Titans to attack during the day and leaving them without a leader at night
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# ? Oct 11, 2013 13:27 |
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To be fair, in the fight against Annie in the district he hurls her into a church and ends up killing hundreds of people. They just blame it on her and never actually explore the fact that whenever Eren transforms people are dying as collateral to complete their objective. Even with him plugging up the wall ended with several people running out in front of the titans to get eaten to give him a chance. Hoping the author brings that up at some point. I don't particularly like Eren but he's interesting enough, and there's a lot of different routes he can go down.
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# ? Oct 11, 2013 17:29 |
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I too agree that [protagonist a] is a bad person and/or a lovely character if you ignore huge swathes of their characterization.
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# ? Oct 11, 2013 17:41 |
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yellowyams posted:He wasn't pushing her aside that swishy movement was meant to indicate he stood up it even had the ザ sound effect, oh my god. Btw, he stood up to face the titan so maybe they both wouldn't loving die. He was comforting her by reiterating what he told her when they first met through his actions. Come on... Come on, people, ザ! Are you ばか or something? As I see it, what he did was deny his only remaining family any kind of tenderness in what both of them surely thought was their final moment, for the sake of raging at titans some more. Eren may be a bit unhinged sometimes, but he's not stupid enough to think he can ward off a titan by punching it. He was as shocked as anyone when they were saved by deus ex machina. He was being a jerkhole, and it only worked because of a plot twist out of nowhere.
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# ? Oct 11, 2013 18:12 |
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# ? Apr 27, 2024 01:47 |
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El-Bonko posted:Come on, people, ザ! Are you ばか or something? He was just as shocked as when he blocked the cannonball even though he 'knew' how to do it.
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# ? Oct 11, 2013 18:22 |