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What hot hatch do you own? This poll is closed. |
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| Golf GTI / R / R32 |
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196 | 0.02% |
| Impreza WRX / STi |
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133 | 0.01% |
| Mazdaspeed 3 |
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92 | 0.01% |
| Veloster Turbo |
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20 | 0.00% |
| Focus ST |
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149 | 0.01% |
| Other Hot Hatch |
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230 | 0.02% |
| Elantra GT |
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1000001 | 99.92% |
| Total: | 1000821 votes | ||
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Snowdens Secret posted:The average Ford buyer makes 100k+ annually? New car buyers would theoretically be income biased over the general population but this number still seems fishy - are they counting two-income families as one buyer? Maybe the US Government counts as a buyer for fleet purchases and skews the average way up? 
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Nov 9, 2013 03:00
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| # ? Apr 26, 2024 14:41 |
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Viper915 posted:Maybe the US Government counts as a buyer for fleet purchases and skews the average way up? The government loses 800 billion a year, that should bring the average way down.
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Nov 9, 2013 03:26
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Throatwarbler posted:They just sell a lot of diesel F350s. It's basically this. Ford makes something insane like 90%+ of it's profits off of it's truck division.
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Nov 9, 2013 03:32
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Phone posted:It's basically this. Ford makes something insane like 90%+ of it's profits off of it's truck division. The most popular new vehicle among millionaires is the F-150. Higher-tier interiors in the new trucks from the Big Three are getting legit luxurious.
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Nov 9, 2013 05:12
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Wheeee posted:The most popular new vehicle among millionaires is the F-150. Maybe under 10 million ~ millionares. It's still Rover central here for folks with money
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Nov 9, 2013 05:15
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I like those stats because it proves even the well off are down for a rad little hot hatch. The hot hatch appeal crosses all social and economic boundaries. Its a universal constant among car people.
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Nov 9, 2013 07:43
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I'm right in Ford's target demo and they are barking up the wrong tree with their thought processes. I live in an urban area that drives my income, which means I can only have one car which must serve my commute needs, my fun needs and my storage/hauling needs. I also don't want to park a particularly nice vehicle on the street, since I had a BMW get keyed. I'm not any more likely to buy a Ford, but I am highly likely to buy the same class of vehicle again. It just so happens that at present, Ford makes one of the best vehicles in the class. If the ST didn't exist, I'd probably have bought a GTI or Speed3, and neither of those purchases would make me more likely to buy a Passat or a CX-9.
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Nov 9, 2013 14:33
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Wheeee posted:The most popular new vehicle among millionaires is the F-150. This number is junk because many of these 'millionaires' are self-owned businessmen buying work trucks. They may have seven figure revenues but once they pay out payroll, debt service and expenses their nets are considerably less impressive. These numbers are all garbage without source data and especially without filtering vehicles for non-personal use. Even with the biases I mentioned earlier, the average consumer of a volume product being that many standard deviations from the mean general pop family income is highly suspicious.
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Nov 10, 2013 14:18
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I know there is a kind of popular meme in some coastal enclaves that the only people who drive American cars are snaggletoothed mullets with 3rd gen F-bodies to match their trailers, but historically the average Detroit 3 vehicle has been significantly more expensive than the average Japanese vehicle, and in the last few years since the bankruptcy they have widened the gap even further. The reason is that Americans buy a lot of very expensive BOF trucks and SUVs.   I'm kind of not counting VAG in the same category because VAG is relatively much more Audi and Porsche(over 30% of the group, vs Cadillac and Buick together making up maybe 10% of GM) than it is VW, and VW has been relatively unsuccessful as a mainstream brand. Note that out of the Japanese big 3, Honda is consistenly the cheapest, and Hyundai/Kia lag behind even further. Unlike Nissan and Toyota Honda does not have a half ton BOF truck in its lineup. Conversely Toyota, with the largest lineup of BOF trucks (Tundra, Tacoma, Sequoia, 4Runner, Land Cruiser, LX, GX) leads the Japanese in average prices. Also note that Ford's transaction prices are almost neck to neck with GM, despite Lincoln being mostly a failure and Ford having basically no luxury marque competitor in segments like compact or midsize luxury sport sedan (BMW 3/5 series). Thridly note how GM's numbers are way up in the later dates after the introduction of the new Silverado/Sierra last month. 30% of 1/2 ton and 50% of heavy duty F series trucks are King Ranch, Limited or Platinum trims priced around $50k to start. 25% of Tundras are 1794 and Platinum trims priced around $50k. So the average Ford buyer making over $100k isn't surprising to me at all. Throatwarbler fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Nov 10, 2013 |
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Nov 10, 2013 15:24
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Those numbers aren't that relevant, though. The sale price is less important than the monthly payment, and those are being pushed down with longer and longer duration loans and aggressive interest rates. That then becomes a question of how much debt load the average household is willing to shoulder, and those numbers easily (if unfortunately) tend to support a mainstream new car with reasonable trade-in down and an absurdo long loan. Let's face it, if sale price were a major indicator of buyer income, a lot fewer of us would be buying new cars. It is, and Ford is presenting it as, a marketing thing, that they're being percieved as more upscale and trendy (again, largely independent of actual sticker) but I'm not sure that jibes with reality or even Ford's own marketing - and that's not so much about their hot hatches (which presumably do pull more affluent than average buyers) than the regular Fiestas, Foci, Tauruses, Escapes etc etc. That $100k number is some 4 standard devs from the mean, in a country where the highest incomes are in areas of lowest per capita car ownership (and lowest uptake of domestic marketing.) That number is so hokey it brings the other in question.
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Nov 10, 2013 15:47
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Snowdens Secret posted:Those numbers aren't that relevant, though. The sale price is less important than the monthly payment, and those are being pushed down with longer and longer duration loans and aggressive interest rates. That then becomes a question of how much debt load the average household is willing to shoulder, and those numbers easily (if unfortunately) tend to support a mainstream new car with reasonable trade-in down and an absurdo long loan. I dunno about that last part, GM mentioned recently that they specifically chose New York to launch the newest Tahoe/Yukon/Suburban/Escalade because historically that part of the country was the biggest market for those types of vehicles. It can't just be Obama and the Secret Service.
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Nov 10, 2013 15:52
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Ok, so I'm pretty set on getting a Ford Fiesta. Now do I go for the ST fully loaded with the recaro's for a $270/month lease, or be a cheapie and get the new 1.0L ecoboost hatchback for $160/month? I feel like if I go test drive an ST, I'll never be able to get the 1L. Is the ST as good as they say it is and worth the extra coin?
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Nov 11, 2013 15:44
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Voltage posted:Ok, so I'm pretty set on getting a Ford Fiesta. Now do I go for the ST fully loaded with the recaro's for a $270/month lease, or be a cheapie and get the new 1.0L ecoboost hatchback for $160/month? Maybe compromise with a Fiesta ST without the recaro seats.
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Nov 12, 2013 00:03
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Voltage posted:Ok, so I'm pretty set on getting a Ford Fiesta. Now do I go for the ST fully loaded with the recaro's for a $270/month lease, or be a cheapie and get the new 1.0L ecoboost hatchback for $160/month?
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Nov 12, 2013 00:19
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Peugeot goes and moves the goal posts. This might explain why the 208 gti lacks the feel of the better cars in the class. http://www.themotorreport.com.au/57659/hot-peugeot-208-r-confirmed-report sadnessboner fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Nov 12, 2013 |
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Nov 12, 2013 00:53
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triple clutcher posted:seems like an odd cross-shop ... the 3cyl is all but poverty-spec, and the ST is pretty well-trimmed even without the Recaros. I think a 'regular' SE or even a Titanium might be a better compromise. Unfortunately the 3Cyl Turbo only comes on the SE trim with no available options, special order only. The ST I feel as if I would never be able to live with myself if I didn't get those Recaros. I've driven the normal n/a 1.6L and It's ok but I want a unique and somewhat interesting car - so the 1.0L ecoboost would suit that well. I could hypermile 50+MPG out of it, it's super light, more power than the base 1.6, sounds cool, and has a turbo. Call me crazy, but I don't really like any other new cars under 35K other than the fiesta - everything is too generic and boring. I would get an FR-S but the interior is terrible and it has way too little power for $25,000, test driven a few and just came out underwhelmed, it just feels empty, like it's missing something. The Fiesta ST seems like an amazingly better value since it actually fits people and cargo. If I had the cash i'd be in a 3 series again in a heartbeat.
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Nov 12, 2013 04:25
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sadnessboner posted:Peugeot goes and moves the goal posts. This might explain why the 208 gti lacks the feel of the better cars in the class. 235hp in a French hatchback 
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Nov 12, 2013 11:49
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Voltage posted:Unfortunately the 3Cyl Turbo only comes on the SE trim with no available options, special order only. The ST I feel as if I would never be able to live with myself if I didn't get those Recaros. Check out other hot hatches? The Fiesta ST (and the Focus ST) are a lot more than Recaro seats. If Recaro seats are keeping you from purchasing/leasing a car, your priorities may be a little out of whac.
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Nov 12, 2013 23:59
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Voltage posted:Unfortunately the 3Cyl Turbo only comes on the SE trim with no available options, special order only. The ST I feel as if I would never be able to live with myself if I didn't get those Recaros. The Recaros look nice, but I'm not sure they're worth the $2k. Even with the heated mirrors ( why can't I get them separately   ).
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Nov 13, 2013 00:43
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triple clutcher posted:500 Abarth or Turbo? Not quite as practical as the Fiesta, but seems to do quirky in spades. I pulled up next to an Abarth a few weeks ago, and that thing is super tiny compared to my Golf. Not Smartcar tiny, but still smaller than I'd feel like driving every day.
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Nov 13, 2013 15:47
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I'd get the FR-S over the Abarth if I wanted something that was extremely small and not practical. The Fiesta has real back seats and 4 doors. I already have a Miata so I don't need another car that fits nothing. I rode in a Focus ST with the recaros, it would be worth the 2 grand for me.
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Nov 13, 2013 17:27
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Voltage posted:I'd get the FR-S over the Abarth if I wanted something that was extremely small and not practical. The Fiesta has real back seats and 4 doors. I already have a Miata so I don't need another car that fits nothing. The Fiesta ST is really nicely equipped, and even with the Recaros, it's a very fun car with most of the major comforts for under $24k. You could certainly drop a lot more coin on many cars that are a lot less fun or poorly equipped. Compare that to the SE Manual EcoBoost package. Yes, having a uniquely fun engine would be pretty sweet (and the mileage is phenomenal), but like everyone else pointed out: it would be absolute poverty spec. It all depends on what your priorities are... eventually the novelty of the engine would wear off and you're driving around town in a very basic sub-compact. It is a cheap lease and your fuel costs would be very low, but you've basically given up everything to get a unique powertrain. To me, I don't care how wacky or unique a powertrain is, it's not worth giving up creature comforts. But, that's just one man's opinion. Plenty of AI'ers drive around in minimalist interiors with extremely stiff suspensions because go-fast bits are more important than comfort. Everyone has different priorities.
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Nov 13, 2013 18:09
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BigBadBrewsta posted:The Fiesta ST is really nicely equipped, and even with the Recaros, it's a very fun car with most of the major comforts for under $24k. You could certainly drop a lot more coin on many cars that are a lot less fun or poorly equipped. The rate gas is going down and diesel isn't I've been tempted to try to find a GolfR lately.  
veedubfreak fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Nov 13, 2013 |
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Nov 13, 2013 18:54
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I've been debating whether or not I should trade in my '11 Fiesta SES next summer, if I can afford it, for an ST or wait until spring 2015. This thread certainly isn't helping if I want to put it off. I love my Fiesta now I can only imagine how much fun the ST must be. My only issue is that Ford doesn't offer the Candy Red Metallic but color isn't a big deal.
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Nov 14, 2013 01:20
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veedubfreak posted:The rate gas is going down and diesel isn't I've been tempted to try to find a GolfR lately. I'm actually in almost the same boat. 2011 Golf TDI, 2 door but in the best color (Shark Blue). My commute is going to go to next to nothing here (18k-20k to around 5k) so I can get something really stupid. The S2000's siren song is difficult to resist here in Texas but I can see how Colorado would make it exceedingly impractical. I love the R32 but the price to power ratio seems odd. The ST models from Ford are also a great value but I think I need a switch from FWD.
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Nov 14, 2013 04:23
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After driving in this morning, I'm not sure I need an R. Pretty sure I'd end up with a whole lot of tickets.
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Nov 14, 2013 15:34
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veedubfreak posted:After driving in this morning, I'm not sure I need an R. Pretty sure I'd end up with a whole lot of tickets. Just get a white one and cops won't even bat an eye!
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Nov 14, 2013 21:06
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I guess the guy who broke my reverse lock out gear on my ST did me a favor. I took it back to the ford dealership - turns out before I bought the car they had an issue with the stick, so they swapped it out with a stock focus stick, I had no idea! Ford is swapping it with the Focus ST stick and replacing the broken reverse lock out free of charge. Still not sure if I should complain to FoMoCo directly for the dealership modifying a brand new car before I purchased it and not telling me.
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Nov 14, 2013 22:36
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Well I've gone and done it, I ordered a 2014 Fiesta ST with the Recaro package, black on black. 6 weeks estimated time of delivery. Took me 3 hours of dealer negotiation to get the lease payments I wanted. Got an excellent deal. I drove the MOLTEN ORANGE model they had on the lot and it was incredible. Much, much faster than I anticipated, makes the FR-S seem like a prius. Handling was perfect, interior was very nice, basically a perfect car except for being FWD, but it honestly does not matter one bit with this thing. I loved it. The tester I tried had the standard cloth seats which were crap, and $2,500 in options - navigation, grey wheel paint, red brake paint, orange car paint, and a sunroof. I would much rather have the heated leather recaro seats for $2000 and none of those options since the stock ST comes with every possible option the Titanium has except for the useless few the one on hand had. Now to sell my Prizm and Impreza... I think I'll still keep my Miata until it completely explodes since its practically unsellable with 206K, a salvage title, and terrible paint.
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Nov 15, 2013 05:12
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Picked up this yesterday (the car, not the dog) Fun, so far. Once you get to 5000rpm it just opens up. And it corners like nothing I've driven.
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Nov 18, 2013 04:59
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Sepist posted:I guess the guy who broke my reverse lock out gear on my ST did me a favor. I took it back to the ford dealership - turns out before I bought the car they had an issue with the stick, so they swapped it out with a stock focus stick, I had no idea! Ford is swapping it with the Focus ST stick and replacing the broken reverse lock out free of charge. Still not sure if I should complain to FoMoCo directly for the dealership modifying a brand new car before I purchased it and not telling me. Yes, you should complain to the OEM.
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Nov 18, 2013 05:58
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Jefinabox posted:Picked up this yesterday (the car, not the dog) I've got a 205 GTi 1.9, and a Fiesta ST on order; but this is the car I can't help feel I should have instead of both.
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Nov 18, 2013 08:58
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Jefinabox posted:And it corners like nothing I've driven. With three times the power, and hopefully some really good tyres, that thing should let you terrorise just about anything on twisty roads.
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Nov 18, 2013 23:39
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I have no idea where exactly to ask this question, but I know there's a lot of ST fans in this thread so maybe I'll get lucky. I'm thinking about a used Ford Focus (probably not ST, sorry folks), and there are reviewers who openly advocate a lower trim level just to avoid the apparently catastrophic MyFord Touch. Is it as bad as I'm reading, or are these complaints overblown?
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Nov 19, 2013 00:18
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Boxman posted:I have no idea where exactly to ask this question, but I know there's a lot of ST fans in this thread so maybe I'll get lucky. It's pretty bad, but... it's not like the dashboard pours coffee on your dick and refuses to turn on the heat in the winter or whatever. It's just clunky, user-hostile, and bafflingly resistive touchscreen shitware. I don't know what the price for its inclusion is. It's worth very little additional money if it's sold as an upgrade though.
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Nov 19, 2013 01:02
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It can be updated over the air, so in theory they might be able to stop it from freezing/crashing in the future, but the whole capacitive touch thing will still take some getting use to. Also I think car reviewers and magazines exaggerate it a bit because they only drive a car for a short time and drive many cars over a year. If you just bought a car as a regular person and drove it every day, I think it just becomes second nature after a while even if the design is theoretically unergonomic.
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Nov 19, 2013 01:21
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Boxman posted:I have no idea where exactly to ask this question, but I know there's a lot of ST fans in this thread so maybe I'll get lucky. Having driven a standard Focus and then a ST equipped with MFT for around one and a half year, I think I can say it didn't used to be overblown, but definitely is now. It was pretty lovely at first, but there's been several updates since then. The current revision in my ST is completely serviceable, but in the 2012 Focus I drove for a while it was a hot mess at first. Now its just sort of clunky and difficult to use most of the time.
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Nov 19, 2013 03:03
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The good thing is that with market pricing you probably won't have to pay much of a premium for a higher trim since options never hold value.
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Nov 19, 2013 03:40
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Stew Man Chew posted:It's pretty bad, but... it's not like the dashboard pours coffee on your dick and refuses to turn on the heat in the winter or whatever. It's just clunky, user-hostile, and bafflingly resistive touchscreen shitware. Thank you everyone for the input. Those early reviews of the system did make it send like the touchscreen has an invisible button that you sometimes press that activates a hydraulic system to kick you square in the mean bean machine, so I wanted some extra opinions.
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Nov 19, 2013 05:19
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| # ? Apr 26, 2024 14:41 |
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Regarding My Ford Touch, my wife's car was a 2012 Explorer with MFT in it, and while I never had the hatred for the system you see spouted online, it did give us some headaches that I got tired of. It couldn't handle both phones connected via BT at the same time, it would randomly lock up and crash rendering the radio and rear HVAC controls useless, and then it got to the point where only removing the neg terminal from the battery for 5 minutes would get it to come back on. It didn't happen often, but gently caress it was annoying. That's when I updated the firmware again to the most recent version which fixed all of our issues. We just traded that lease in early and leased a 2014 Explorer with MFT and they changed some stuff up a bit. We've only had the car about a month, but it seems much faster to respond, and the interface changed a little. (No more climate control on the steering wheel/instrument panel lcd). I'm not sure if the hardware has improved in the last few years or not, but it feels much snappier to respond. Most issues we had with the system were resolved with the most recent firmware update though, so that was a bonus. Personally I liked the old 2.x software when it first came out the best, but it was deemed 'too confusing' for the target demographic and they dumbed the interface down a bit in the current 3.x software. As a counterpoint though, my 2011 Fusion has a normal style SYNC system and has worked perfect the last 3 years.
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Nov 19, 2013 17:26
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