If only Frog could have kept WCW afloat

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Who Killed WCW?
	Eric Bischoff
	Hulk Hogan
	Vince Russo
	Jerusalem

MassRafTer: May 26, 2001; BAEST MODE!!!

Wow, Hogan is scummy but for some reason it surprises me that he'd go there about Goldberg.

I also looked up the late December 98 Nitro at the TWA Dome in St. Louis, the show drew 29,000 for a gate of $900,000, a record for WCW at the time.

MassRafTer fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Dec 14, 2013

# ? Dec 14, 2013 06:10

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# ? Apr 27, 2024 13:13

UltimoDragonQuest: Oct 5, 2011

In February 1999, Hogan vs. Flair and Nash vs. Goldberg did nearly as well as St. Valentine's Day Massacre with Austin vs. Vince in a cage and Foley and Rock last man standing.

It took a lot of effort to destroy WCW with terrible booking.

e: This company is the best.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1tzvm_bret-hart-vs-goldberg-wcw-title_sport&start=371

Piper was supposed to throw himself on Goldberg to protect him from a post-match beatdown, but he came out before the match ended. The ref counted the pin with Piper covering him and Bret kind of there.

UltimoDragonQuest fucked around with this message at 06:50 on Dec 14, 2013

# ? Dec 14, 2013 06:21

MassRafTer: May 26, 2001; BAEST MODE!!!

UltimoDragonQuest posted:

In February 1999, Hogan vs. Flair and Nash vs. Goldberg did nearly as well as St. Valentine's Day Massacre with Austin vs. Vince in a cage and Foley and Rock last man standing.

It took a lot of effort to destroy WCW with terrible booking.

I believe it did better, SVDM ended up being a surprising disappointment.

# ? Dec 14, 2013 06:49

Pinstripe Hourglass: Nov 27, 2008; =RIVER PEOPLE=
Ay yi yi! We look
like... cartoons!

MassRafTer posted:

I believe it did better, SVDM ended up being a surprising disappointment.

That intro is still amazing, though.

# ? Dec 14, 2013 08:08

Gonzo McFee: Jun 19, 2010

Jerusalem posted:

Stan Lee ended up suing somebody (either Sony or maybe Marvel themselves) because he was owed a percentage of the first Spider-Man movie and they tried to tell him it was a flop. Peter Jackson had to sue New Line Cinema because they were withholding payments to himself AND other employees because,"The LOTR trilogy didn't make much money!"

It's insane. Somebody somewhere is probably insisting to Leonardo DiCaprio's agent that Titanic sunk without a trace at the box office.

Return of the Jedi still hasn't made a profit. They keep buying things from their subsidiaries relating to each film and through passing money around from themselves to themselves they can claim they've made a loss.

If George Lucas hadn't asked for the rights to merchandising then he'd be nowhere near as rich as he is today, Lucas Arts would have never been founded and we wouldn't have Monkey Island.

And that's how California is bankrupt while hosting the only successful American exports left and some of it's wealthiest citizens.

# ? Dec 14, 2013 11:38

haljordan: Oct 22, 2004; the corpse of god is love.

Hogan complaining about someone never wanting to lose a match, that's loving rich.

# ? Dec 14, 2013 13:49

bobkatt013: Oct 8, 2006; Youâre telling me Peter Parker is ...... Spider-man!?

Gonzo McFee posted:

Return of the Jedi still hasn't made a profit. They keep buying things from their subsidiaries relating to each film and through passing money around from themselves to themselves they can claim they've made a loss.

If George Lucas hadn't asked for the rights to merchandising then he'd be nowhere near as rich as he is today, Lucas Arts would have never been founded and we wouldn't have Monkey Island.

And that's how California is bankrupt while hosting the only successful American exports left and some of it's wealthiest citizens.

Did you know the Harry Potter movies did not make any money?

# ? Dec 14, 2013 13:53

DeathChicken: Jul 9, 2012; Nonsense. I have not yet begun to defile myself.

I like how they weren't even trying to be clever and just threw *131 million dollars* into the advertising costs. Then again, maybe that's accurate.

# ? Dec 14, 2013 13:57

Gonzo McFee: Jun 19, 2010

DeathChicken posted:

I like how they weren't even trying to be clever and just threw *131 million dollars* into the advertising costs. Then again, maybe that's accurate.

That's exactly what the company they'll have outsourced the advertising to will have been paid. The fact that the company will have been founded and entirely owned by Warner Brothers is besides the point.

# ? Dec 14, 2013 14:17

Street Horrrsing: Mar 24, 2010; Godwalker of The Grateful Prisoner

Hollywood also pretends that the amount allocated for all the various aspects of filmmaking is the final cost. So if the hobbit has a catering budget of one billion dollars, that movie will never become 'profitable', regardless of what was actually spent.

# ? Dec 14, 2013 15:45

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

This, by the way, is why we had that writer's strike a couple years back. The studios were trying to get them to accept being paid a percentage of the net profits instead of the gross as a standard, and the writers quite rightly told them to go piss up a rope.

# ? Dec 14, 2013 16:14

Aerial Tollhouse: Feb 17, 2011

Hollywood is notorious among industries screwing with the books to avoid paying people who are supposed to get a portion of the profits. Several times people have attempted to take them to court, and they rapidly reach an out of court settlement to avoid further scrutiny. That 130 million figure is actually believable for advertising (Avatar, John Carter, and The Lone Ranger all had a similar or larger advertising budget). The absurd distribution fee is probably the largest fraudulent charge on that, it's essentially the company charging itself money to distribute its own film.

# ? Dec 14, 2013 19:43

haljordan: Oct 22, 2004; the corpse of god is love.

By the way, Hogan complaining about Goldberg not wanting to lose is far more hilarious to me now because a good friend of mine just told me today about the HBK/Hogan match at Summerslam 2005. A broken down shell of a performer defeats one of, if not the best ring performers of all time near his prime. Makes perfect sense. HBK overselling every move to an embarrassing degree is beyond hilarious.

# ? Dec 14, 2013 19:44

oldfan: Jul 22, 2007; "Mathewson pitched against Cincinnati yesterday. Another way of putting it is that Cincinnati lost a game of baseball."

UltimoDragonQuest posted:

I'll take the authoritative history of WCW over dirtsheets.

Eric's book is the best.

The best part of those Bischoff quotes is that not only was Bischoff very obviously Dave's primary source on all things WCW since basically forever, he was on Observer Live in the period in question a bunch of times.

# ? Dec 14, 2013 19:54

Call Me Charlie: Dec 3, 2005; by Smythe

haljordan posted:

By the way, Hogan complaining about Goldberg not wanting to lose is far more hilarious to me now because a good friend of mine just told me today about the HBK/Hogan match at Summerslam 2005. A broken down shell of a performer defeats one of, if not the best ring performers of all time near his prime. Makes perfect sense. HBK overselling every move to an embarrassing degree is beyond hilarious.

It gets even better when you know that Hogan, himself, suggested the match so he could claim that he sold out the Georgia Dome to the Turner execs. It was only suppose to be a non-title dark match until Bischoff decided to put it on TV to bump the ratings.

# ? Dec 14, 2013 22:51

ChampRamp: Mar 29, 2010; SAVE_US.CHR

jeffersonlives posted:

The best part of those Bischoff quotes is that not only was Bischoff very obviously Dave's primary source on all things WCW since basically forever, he was on Observer Live in the period in question a bunch of times.

He was working the sheets. Duh!

# ? Dec 15, 2013 00:17

algebra testes: Mar 5, 2011; Lipstick Apathy

Aerial Tollhouse posted:

Hollywood is notorious among industries screwing with the books to avoid paying people who are supposed to get a portion of the profits. Several times people have attempted to take them to court, and they rapidly reach an out of court settlement to avoid further scrutiny. That 130 million figure is actually believable for advertising (Avatar, John Carter, and The Lone Ranger all had a similar or larger advertising budget). The absurd distribution fee is probably the largest fraudulent charge on that, it's essentially the company charging itself money to distribute its own film.

Plus they are charging themselves interest for production, and double charging for production (it was made for ~ 150 million)

# ? Dec 15, 2013 07:48

MassRafTer: May 26, 2001; BAEST MODE!!!

Tonight is the fallout from Starrcade 96, plus a bunch of awesome wrestling. Tune it at 8PM http://www.psp-tv.com/r/BadMoviesWorseWrestling or come by around 7:40 for BIBLEMAN.

# ? Dec 18, 2013 00:39

MassRafTer: May 26, 2001; BAEST MODE!!!

I thought those were two of the best Nitros we've seen back to back. The first episode had three good matches with one pretty great one, and a well done turn with The Giant demanding his title shot from Hogan. The second episode had less good wrestling, but I loved the Luger/Meng finish where Mark Curtis took a bump with Meng in the rack, Barbarian ran down, got racked as Curtis woke up and Curtis called for the bell thinking it was still Meng. The second week of the Hogan/Giant build was really good with Sting's involvement and Vincent at the end, seeing The Giant just wreck people is awesome.

Edit: I can't forget the commercials. I am so glad Naitch uploaded that show as is, the 1997 commercials were great.

MassRafTer fucked around with this message at 10:46 on Dec 18, 2013

# ? Dec 18, 2013 10:12

Jerusalem: May 20, 2004; Would you be my new best friends?

What struck me about the first show was that it squashed so much together at the end. Hogan getting the nWo to mass attack Piper due to his outrage/humiliation over being beaten clean was good. Giant turning on Hogan and physically demanding his title match was good. Hogan pretending solidarity till he was clear of The Giant and then siccing the nWo on him was good. But having all three together in the space of a few minutes felt like just a bit much. It reminded me a bit of the end of Starrcade, where Piper's win and triumphant exit was good but the show kept going another few minutes to show Hogan getting his belt and insisting everything was okay. I'm tempted to say that Hogan agreed to things like getting beaten by Piper or being physically intimidated by Giant so long as he immediately got to get some kind of retribution, so he still looked like he was in control before the show went off the air.

If they could just somehow remove Jarrett from the Horseman angle though, I'd be thrilled. Watching everything fall apart and Arn just getting surlier and surlier is really a lot of fun.

# ? Dec 18, 2013 11:37

oatgan: Jan 15, 2009

The second episode also had Jim Duggan pinning William Regal after punching him with a taped fist. The ref starts to count the pin but then calls for the bell because apparently time ran out and Regal stays down for like a 10 count because Jim Duggan is the worst.

# ? Dec 18, 2013 15:56

BENGHAZI 2: Oct 13, 2007; by Cyrano4747

david carmichael posted:

congratulations, josh, on joining every time i die

Go stretch your ears and get a neck tattoo.

# ? Dec 18, 2013 16:15

Punch McLightning: Sep 19, 2005; you know what that means; Grimey Drawer

The October 14 1996 Observer is up. Choice quotes:

quote:

Ric Flair is expected to be out the rest of the year due to a torn rotator cuff which needs surgery. Flair was originally scheduled for an operation on 10/3 in Birmingham, AL, but WCW wanted him to get a second opinion from one of their own doctors, who also recommended surgery which was expected to take place sometime this week.

A long look at the immediate effect of the nWo angle on business.

quote:

Without a doubt, the most talked about angle of this and nearly any year is the NWO angle. Some are calling it the best angle in years. Some are crediting it with being the catalyst for WCW finally overtaking WWF as the No. 1 wrestling promotion in the United States. Nearly everyone credits it with putting WCW on fire, even though most recognize the fire has been burning less and less bright by the week due to angle overkill.

A funny thing happens when you examine the numbers. Everything isn't as it seems. We ran a comparison this past week between WCW before and after the NWO angle started and the results were startling, particularly in gauging the effectiveness of the angle, particularly in comparison to WCW's previous major angle, the Elizabeth turn on Randy Savage and joining up with Ric Flair, which turned the company's house show business fortunes around, yet has never gotten mainstream credit for being one of the most effective WCW angles since Turner took the company over.

First let's look at house shows. In comparison, we took the five month period from 2/1 through 6/30 as the pre-NWO angle period. From 7/1 through 10/7 is considered the post-NWO angle. While Scott Hall debuted on television in late May, it actually wasn't until July when he and Kevin Nash began working the house shows.

Pre-NWO angle per show averages: 3,592 paid, $41,407

Post-NWO angle per show averages: 3,063 paid, $37,208

This is not saying the angle was a bad idea. Actually the angle itself was a great idea, as almost all interpromotional angles are, although one can argue the execution of it has fallen apart in recent weeks. But those figures contradict the idea that this angle has created more of an interest in people wanting to pay to see WCW than was there during the before the angle started. This isn't saying it's a bad angle, but in effectiveness at drawing money, this is hardly Muto-Takada or even Hogan-Orndorff. It's not even Flair-Savage and it's actually not a whole lot bigger than Sting-Rude.

One factor in this decline in live show attendance may have to do with putting the title on Hogan. During the early part of the year, the title bounced back-and-forth with Flair and Savage, and later Giant, so most house shows were headlined by a world title match. Once Hogan won the title in August, there are no world title matches at the house shows, so if the belt means anything, that may explain some of the decline. However, the slight decline in attendance (July average was 3,200 paying $39,800) started with Hall & Nash on the road and Giant still holding the world title defending it on every show. If the belt means something, then it's questionable keeping it on someone who doesn't work the house shows. If it doesn't, somebody ought to examine why and concentrate on putting some credibility back in it because a strong title belt should mean something at the box office and be the key aspect of the story lines in most cases.

Television ratings are another story. We'll date the beginning of the angle for television purposes one month earlier, since Hall arrived in late May and began building up for Nash's arrival by early June.

Pre-NWO angle per show average rating: 2.20

Post-NWO angle per show average rating: 2.23

Even with the ratings increase every Monday night which can be directly correlated with the debut of Hall, the fact is, for just about every viewer gained on a Monday, it averaged out to a viewer lost on a Saturday or a Sunday. Realistically, even though on paper this looks to be a dead heat, actually that is a statistical fallacy because traditionally ratings go down during the summer and they didn't this year. The fact WCW ratings actually stayed even, and actually increased a tiny amount over the summer months is quite a bit more impressive than the numbers would tend to show. The NWO angle has been good for ratings, or the increase to two hours on Monday has been good for ratings, and since they both happened at the same time, it's probably a combination of both and it's impossible to say which was more important than the other right now. However, angles over three of the past five weeks have led to a scary level of people switching channels.

Since everyone nowadays looks at the Monday numbers as the barometer of success, from a bragging rights situation, the angle looks great. But ratings for the other three cable shows have actually shown a slight decrease, but again, that would be expected because that's the traditional summer pattern, and WCW's summer drop of the Saturday show ratings didn't take place to the level of previous summers. The Sunday numbers have dropped, particularly in recent weeks (the 9/29 Sunday show drew the lowest rating in the history of the show except in weeks when it went head up with the Super Bowl), but that's more attributable to being moved from the traditional 6:05 p.m. start and a down playing of the importance of the show than any story lines going on.

So what of pay-per-view. In comparing buy rates, I took the February, March and May WCW shows (there was no PPV show in April) as the pre-NWO period and July, August and September shows as the post. The June show, which drew the lowest buy rate of the year (and, ironically, would be considered by most as the best WCW PPV event of the year), I didn't consider in either category because I'm not sure which it would be fair to put it in. The first actual match Hall & Nash worked, which was the match with the Hogan turn, was in July. However, the NWO angle was in full bloom by June, and it was well known Hall & Nash would appear on that show in an angle, but they were not the focal point of that show.

Pre-NWO average buy rate: .62

Post-NWO average buy rate: .66

So there has been an increase, although certainly not anything to be considered staggering. The fact is, when it comes to putting dollars in the company, the arrival of Hall and Nash and the impact of the NWO angle pales in comparison to the original arrival of Hogan in 1994, where his house show and buy rate figures were almost night and day different from the priors, and economically his impact on the company financially did pay for his $4 million plus annual salary. If you look at the figures and remember that both Hall and Nash's salary adds $120,000 per month in salary expenses for WCW (not to mention that their contract deal gives them perks on the road such as hotel and car paid for that traditionally haven't been covered by wrestling promotions in the past), it's a lot harder to make the same statement. In fact, if you combine the slight drop in house show per show average with the slight increase in buy rate, the figure you wind up with is that since Hall and Nash came, WCW takes in an extra $48,800 per month while spending maybe $125,000 more to take in that money. But that figure may be considered a drop in the bucket if the goal is to do a number on the WWF every Monday, which is generally what has been happening. Merchandising isn't factored in this picture and that may slightly close that gap a little more.

quote:

Harlem Heat regained the WCW tag titles on 10/1 in Canton, OH at the Saturday Night tapings from Public Enemy as expected, so they'll defend the belts against Kevin Nash & Scott Hall at the 10/27 PPV show. Match went 5:40 when Col. Parker hooking Grunge's knee with the cane and then Stevie Ray hitting Grunge's knee with the cane and getting a pin. Probably more eventful than the title change was a disturbance during the match in the crowd when a few black fans were fighting a few white fans which distracted most of the crowd from the match itself. It was covered up on television by making it appear the crowd was distracted because the NWO was in the stands (which they were). Match was really bad with a bad finish as well.

quote:

Nitro on 10/7 in Savannah, GA (4,300 paying $54,074) saw Heat again beat Public Enemy in 13:12 when Booker T came off the top with a chair onto Grunge's knee as heel ref Nick Patrick was hugging Sherri.

quote:

Randy Savage did an interview, and with all the stuff he could talk about being that he's been destroyed in a million identical angles (with the million and first on the way), involved in a complicated story line with his wife that nobody except the bookers have a clue about, and is in the main event against Hulk Hogan on the next PPV, spent virtually the entire interview putting over the fact that the Slim Jim car finished 10th in an auto race on Saturday night while Kyle Petty crashed the NWO car (the Sting car didn't even qualify for those of you NASCAR fans who wondered what happened to that important part of the storyline)

Plans change department:

quote:

Matt Ghaffari is being seriously talked with but apparently no deal has been done. Kurt Angle has pretty much decided against doing pro wrestling.

quote:

Eric Bischoff did make a hot phone call to the hotel room where Hogan and company were hanging out regarding Jerry Sags bending over and spreading his cheeks (and he didn't even know at the time what happened to the ratings after that).

quote:

There is becoming more and more behind the scenes heat in the Hall-Nash-Hogan camp, not to mention the disenchantment of those not in the camp. Nash & Hall are tired of playing background vocals and mad about the money Hogan is making.

# ? Dec 18, 2013 17:39

OJ MIST 2 THE DICK: Sep 11, 2008; Anytime I need to see your face I just close my eyes
And I am taken to a place
Where your crystal minds and magenta feelings
Take up shelter in the base of my spine
Sweet like a chica cherry cola
-Cheap Trick; Nap Ghost

oatgan posted:

The second episode also had Jim Duggan pinning William Regal after punching him with a taped fist. The ref starts to count the pin but then calls for the bell because apparently time ran out and Regal stays down for like a 10 count because Jim Duggan is the worst.

It was actually about ten minutes, going by the timestamps of everyone realizing it was Duggan and the actual finish.

Of course it really was an excuse for the nWo to take over the announcing booth and promote Souled Out for ten minutes.

That was a pretty painful match.

# ? Dec 18, 2013 17:52

haljordan: Oct 22, 2004; the corpse of god is love.

quote:

...spent virtually the entire interview putting over the fact that the Slim Jim car finished 10th in an auto race on Saturday night while Kyle Petty crashed the NWO car (the Sting car didn't even qualify for those of you NASCAR fans who wondered what happened to that important part of the storyline)

The best.

# ? Dec 18, 2013 17:55

oldpainless: Oct 30, 2009; This 📆 post brought to you by RAID💥: SHADOW LEGENDS👥.
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Its pretty bullshit for Hogan to take the belt and then not work house shows as the champ.

# ? Dec 18, 2013 18:07

El Gallinero Gros: Mar 17, 2010

oldpainless posted:

Its pretty bullshit for Hogan to take the belt and then not work house shows as the champ.

Especially when he acts like he's the only one who can draw. You're not drawing if you're not at the show.

El Gallinero Gros fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Dec 18, 2013

# ? Dec 18, 2013 18:10

triplexpac: Mar 24, 2007; Suck it
Two tears in a bucket
And then another thing
I'm not the one they'll try their luck with
Hit hard like brass knuckles
See your face through the turnbuckle dude
I got no love for you

El Gallinero Gros posted:

Especially when he acts like he acts like he's the only one who can draw. You're not drawing if you're not at the show.

Are you drawing if they advertise you for the house shows and you don't show up?

# ? Dec 18, 2013 18:29

Memento: Aug 25, 2009; Bleak Gremlin

oldpainless posted:

Its pretty bullshit for Hogan to take the belt and then not work house shows as the champ.

hogan.txt

# ? Dec 18, 2013 23:12

UltimoDragonQuest: Oct 5, 2011

If WCW wanted to pay his fee he would have gladly worked house shows.

# ? Dec 18, 2013 23:18

Scirocco Griffon: Feb 3, 2012

UltimoDragonQuest posted:

If WCW wanted to pay his fee he would have gladly taken the money and then "missed his flight" and not shown up at the house show anyway.

There, that's more like it.

# ? Dec 19, 2013 05:54

DoctorDelaware: Mar 24, 2013

MassRafTer posted:

Edit: I can't forget the commercials. I am so glad Naitch uploaded that show as is, the 1997 commercials were great.

I love the commercials in old wrestling shows. I was watching one of the early Clash of the Champions a while back, and the commercials were still in...there was an ad for the Yugo in every break, and it was amazing.

# ? Dec 19, 2013 09:09

Monkeycheese: Feb 24, 2002; ninja minúsculo

what does this refer to? it sounds, um, very weird?

quote:

quote:

Eric Bischoff did make a hot phone call to the hotel room where Hogan and company were hanging out regarding Jerry Sags bending over and spreading his cheeks (and he didn't even know at the time what happened to the ratings after that).

# ? Dec 20, 2013 18:01

El Gallinero Gros: Mar 17, 2010

Monkeycheese posted:

what does this refer to? it sounds, um, very weird?

There were a few segments where the nWo were partying in a hotel room on a Nitro, the Nasty Boys visited as they made it clear they didn't care about WCW, and I guess he mooned the camera very...uh...graphically.

# ? Dec 20, 2013 18:06

Monkeycheese: Feb 24, 2002; ninja minúsculo

I found the video, its more like when jim carrey made his rear end talk in ace ventura. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xuqj5s_nwo-paid-announcement-the-nasty-boys-join-the-nwo_sport

# ? Dec 20, 2013 18:15

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

I always thought my morbid curiosity was infinite, but apparently it stops at Jerry Saggs' butthole.

# ? Dec 20, 2013 18:17

Monkeycheese: Feb 24, 2002; ninja minúsculo

Haha, there is no exposed rear end-meat in that video. I'm not really sure what the point of the segment was though.

# ? Dec 20, 2013 18:21

BlueArmyMan: Mar 30, 2007; Hooloovoo

Monkeycheese posted:

what does this refer to? it sounds, um, very weird?

Now we know who tuned Knobbs on to goatse.

# ? Dec 20, 2013 18:44

Bigass Moth: Mar 6, 2004; I joined the #RXT REVOLUTION.

he knows...

Monkeycheese posted:

Haha, there is no exposed rear end-meat in that video. I'm not really sure what the point of the segment was though.

Guys in their 40s acting like teenagers? That was basically the whole point of the nWo.

# ? Dec 20, 2013 19:03

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# ? Apr 27, 2024 13:13

coconono: Aug 11, 2004; KISS ME KRIS

Monkeycheese posted:

what does this refer to? it sounds, um, very weird?

I've seen said picture and its pretty disturbing.

# ? Dec 20, 2013 20:40

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > The Hammer House: Stinger Splash Zone > If only Frog could have kept WCW afloat

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