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I'm not sure who you guys are working for, but most companies with actual HR departments take the time to keep salaries in line using relevant market data. When we open a position we already have a budgeted RANGE for the salary. Believe it or not our attitude is not to pay someone the least amount we can get away with, we want quality, qualified employees that are happy and productive. An empty position can translate to hundreds of thousands in lost revenue, we're not going to argue with you over 5,000 dollars if you are the candidate we want. If were hiring Sr. Sys Admin, we get a budget range from HR and Finance for between 95 to 115K or something. If you come in wanting 130K well no point in proceeding because that's out of our range. We're not going to gently caress you though and offer you 70K because that's what you asked for. The worst thing we can do is fill the position with someone unhappy who is going to leave in a short amount of time, that costs even more than not filling the position. It's frustrating for me to see some of you guys dealing with this mickey mouse bullshit. Go find jobs with good companies, stop taking it in the rear end. Stop loving around with mom and pop outfits and MSP's. You should also know what the market rate these days is for your skill set, if you don't well that's your own fault.
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Jan 4, 2014 00:25
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Bootstraps
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Jan 4, 2014 00:57
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skipdogg posted:I'm not sure who you guys are working for, but most companies with actual HR departments take the time to keep salaries in line using relevant market data. When we open a position we already have a budgeted RANGE for the salary. Believe it or not our attitude is not to pay someone the least amount we can get away with, we want quality, qualified employees that are happy and productive. An empty position can translate to hundreds of thousands in lost revenue, we're not going to argue with you over 5,000 dollars if you are the candidate we want. What he said. Stop working for small businesses and being underpaid/butt-sexed.
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Jan 4, 2014 03:56
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skipdogg posted:I'm not sure who you guys are working for, but most companies with actual HR departments take the time to keep salaries in line using relevant market data. When we open a position we already have a budgeted RANGE for the salary. Believe it or not our attitude is not to pay someone the least amount we can get away with, we want quality, qualified employees that are happy and productive. An empty position can translate to hundreds of thousands in lost revenue, we're not going to argue with you over 5,000 dollars if you are the candidate we want. Companies ask for previous salary to get a sense of what you were making and whether you're going to jump ship because they're below your rate. You should know the market rate for your skill set anyway, but if you're DAF or someone else who's been at a MSP below market rate, they're not going to lowball you just because of that if they're a decent company. They just want to know that you're in for a while. Usual negotiation caveats apply; start higher than you expect but not out of the range and you may get lucky. Try to have two offers on the table, or at least have a sense of what someone else will offer you. Know what the cost of living is in a new market and how much to adjust your rate if you move. Normal stuff.
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Jan 4, 2014 04:13
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evol262 posted:they're not going to lowball you just because of that if they're a decent company. There are very many not-decent companies out there, and the really decent companies don't have to fill as many positions as the not-decent ones do. Even in an otherwise-decent company, there'll be plenty of hiring managers/recruiters who want to push to lowball for whatever reason, and there's no internal highballing stimulus to counter-balance it. So the only person who's really going to advocate for you here is yourself.
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Jan 4, 2014 05:16
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keseph posted:There are very many not-decent companies out there, and the really decent companies don't have to fill as many positions as the not-decent ones do. Even in an otherwise-decent company, there'll be plenty of hiring managers/recruiters who want to push to lowball for whatever reason, and there's no internal highballing stimulus to counter-balance it. So the only person who's really going to advocate for you here is yourself. Sure, the world is Hobbesian. And managers need to meet a budget. So you may get lowballed within a range. But when the position is submitted, they're going to get a window to fit in. They can go outside it, to be sure, but it's likely that they'll come back at the bottom and say "that's a big jump, they'll be happy here" instead of going $10k above your last salary trying to stiff you when they have no idea who else you're talking to and what offers you've gotten, with the risk of losing an otherwise good candidate over a comparatively tiny sum.
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Jan 4, 2014 05:38
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You're absolutely doing yourself a huge disservice if you tell them your salary range first. Why would you do that? If they have a range that is not negotiable, they can tell you and you can reject it, but they're not going to do that either because they don't want to give you an advantage in negotiation.e
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Jan 4, 2014 05:59
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evol262 posted:Sure, the world is Hobbesian. And managers need to meet a budget. So you may get lowballed within a range. But when the position is submitted, they're going to get a window to fit in. They can go outside it, to be sure, but it's likely that they'll come back at the bottom and say "that's a big jump, they'll be happy here" instead of going $10k above your last salary trying to stiff you when they have no idea who else you're talking to and what offers you've gotten, with the risk of losing an otherwise good candidate over a comparatively tiny sum. Managers deal with risk constantly and the risk of not getting the person in front of them is no big deal. Managers are also generally much better negotiators than you are, or at least a lot more experienced at it, and will negotiate to improve their own immediate outcome out of sheer habit else if there's not an iota of selfish-ness in it (and honestly, how often do you meet someone who is 100% unselfish at all times?). Your last few salaries shouldn't matter because you should be getting a reasonable, fair, competitive compensation for the work you're doing regardless of your previous work and compensation, no? You'll only be tempted to jump ship if your compensation/environment/etc aren't competitive, and they don't need to know your history to know what a competitive compensation is. Revealing your own history will never serve to improve your own outcome unless you're specifically trying to argue that the position is worth more than what they'd targeted.
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Jan 4, 2014 06:32
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keseph posted:Managers deal with risk constantly and the risk of not getting the person in front of them is no big deal. Managers are also generally much better negotiators than you are, or at least a lot more experienced at it, and will negotiate to improve their own immediate outcome out of sheer habit else if there's not an iota of selfish-ness in it (and honestly, how often do you meet someone who is 100% unselfish at all times?). keseph posted:Revealing your own history will never serve to improve your own outcome unless you're specifically trying to argue that the position is worth more than what they'd targeted.
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Jan 4, 2014 07:01
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evol262 posted:This is all kinds of subjective. In some markets, there are very few candidates for some positions, and the risk of losing someone with significant Puppet experience in Milwaukee is very different from a Java Dev in NoVA. Your compensation shouldn't matter if it's competitive, but see below. Okay, I thought you were arguing in favor of disclosure. The last thing I'll say about it, to end my fair share in the derail, is that even if a manager thinks he has a good reason for asking it, he doesn't. If the market is down and he makes an offer that's competitive with that down-ness, then you're not going to find better until the next upswing at which point it's on him to keep the compensation competitive. A candidate taking a 20% boost or cut today has almost nothing to do with how you keep that position sufficiently attractive and competitive tomorrow to retain the person in it, but I wouldn't doubt that a lot of hiring managers make the mistake of thinking it does.
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Jan 4, 2014 20:12
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Why do salespeople do this to me? I don't work 7 days a week, stop telling our loving clients to call me directly on a Saturday because their thingamabob broke and it can wait, but you just wanna be nice. I wish my manager would put a stop to this poo poo.
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Jan 4, 2014 21:06
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ghostinmyshell posted:Why do salespeople do this to me? I don't work 7 days a week, stop telling our loving clients to call me directly on a Saturday because their thingamabob broke and it can wait, but you just wanna be nice. I wish my manager would put a stop to this poo poo. "Who is this? Oh, OK. I'll get to that on Monday when I'm back at work. He told you what? Oh, that was an outright lie, I'm actually hourly and not scheduled to work today. Yes, he does say a lot of things doesn't he? No, sorry, there's no one else. OK, bye!"
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Jan 4, 2014 23:41
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Hey, it's my old thread.  poo poo that pisses me off: Reformatted my computer and now the monitors are flickering. A+ AMD, why are your stable drivers so loving terrible?
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Jan 5, 2014 03:45
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ghostinmyshell posted:Why do salespeople do this to me? I don't work 7 days a week, stop telling our loving clients to call me directly on a Saturday because their thingamabob broke and it can wait, but you just wanna be nice. I wish my manager would put a stop to this poo poo. This is pretty easily solved by not answering your phone outside of working hours.
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Jan 5, 2014 04:32
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stubblyhead posted:This is pretty easily solved by not answering your phone outside of working hours. Also by saving his number under the name "Customer - Do not answer". When you see that, make sure it rings twice then hit ignore. That way he'll know you ignored it.
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Jan 5, 2014 05:00
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Paladine_PSoT posted:Also by saving his number under the name "Customer - Do not answer". When you see that, make sure it rings twice then hit ignore. That way he'll know you ignored it. One of the phones I had (I think it was the Nokia N97) had a wonderful feature where ignore was separate to hang up. It would silence the ringer but let the call keep ringing before being dealt with however your network would normally deal with an unanswered call (e.g. 7 rings then voicemail). It was great for not aggressively hanging up on people while at the same time not being disturbed by the call. Someone should make an Android app that recreates this feature, if there isn't one already.
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Jan 5, 2014 06:31
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Lum posted:One of the phones I had (I think it was the Nokia N97) had a wonderful feature where ignore was separate to hang up. It would silence the ringer but let the call keep ringing before being dealt with however your network would normally deal with an unanswered call (e.g. 7 rings then voicemail). Most phones let you just press the vol down button to silence a call.
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Jan 5, 2014 06:37
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Lum posted:One of the phones I had (I think it was the Nokia N97) had a wonderful feature where ignore was separate to hang up. It would silence the ringer but let the call keep ringing before being dealt with however your network would normally deal with an unanswered call (e.g. 7 rings then voicemail). That's almost certainly impossible as a 3rd party app. Surprisingly, the telephony stack is pretty much segregated to prevent dickery among other things.
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Jan 5, 2014 06:39
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The Dreamer posted:Most phones let you just press the vol down button to silence a call. Yeah every smartphone and every dumb phone I've ever had all the way back to my Nextel Motorola brick did exactly this.
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Jan 5, 2014 07:00
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Yup, use that all the time on every android phone I've owned.
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Jan 5, 2014 08:37
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MrMoo posted:having to list lifetime lines-of-code per language written. I feel like this isn't getting enough attention and derision. This is what we call a deal-breaker.
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Jan 5, 2014 09:44
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CaptainJuan posted:Yeah every smartphone and every dumb phone I've ever had all the way back to my Nextel Motorola brick did exactly this. Every android phone that I've owned (all of which have been Samsung so this may be specific to them) has the ability to add numbers to a barred callers list. Next time that number calls you it gets sent straight to voicemail (so to the caller it just appears that your phone is off). It has pattern matching options (exact match, starts with, ends with, contains) and also the option to auto-reject any call where the number is withheld. I've used this on some telemarketers before and the sense of satisfaction is nice. rolleyes fucked around with this message at 11:55 on Jan 5, 2014 |
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Jan 5, 2014 11:52
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Che Delilas posted:I feel like this isn't getting enough attention and derision. This is what we call a deal-breaker. Maybe they automatically disqualify anyone who has written more than 500 lines of code from applying.
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Jan 5, 2014 17:03
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Che Delilas posted:I feel like this isn't getting enough attention and derision. This is what we call a deal-breaker. It is definitely a silly thing, but I'm curious how seriously they take it, and whether it's there to weed out "Expert" Java devs who have written upwards of 1000 lines. What am I saying, it's probably taken at face value without a trace of irony.
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Jan 5, 2014 18:15
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Volmarias posted:It is definitely a silly thing, but I'm curious how seriously they take it, and whether it's there to weed out "Expert" Java devs who have written upwards of 1000 lines. Pretty much my only response to that question is going to be some variant on "are you serious?" so I guess I would find out pretty quick. I mean, in the purely hypothetical world where I bothered to apply at all to a company that asked that question.
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Jan 5, 2014 20:38
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Volmarias posted:It is definitely a silly thing, but I'm curious how seriously they take it, and whether it's there to weed out "Expert" Java devs who have written upwards of 1000 lines. My Java experience is pretty much a 1,000 line program 200 times, and most of that is with one proprietary API (TIBCO RV). I'm looking forward to the telephone interview.
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Jan 5, 2014 21:28
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The Dreamer posted:Most phones let you just press the vol down button to silence a call. Problem with that is I never remember to turn it back up again afterwards >.<
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Jan 5, 2014 21:36
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Lum posted:Problem with that is I never remember to turn it back up again afterwards >.< No no, while the ringer is active, just press vol-down once. That mutes the ringer (but it keeps ringing on the caller's end) and IIRC doesn't modify your volume, either. Works fine on my Droid 4 (which last time I checked, is the same phone you use).
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Jan 5, 2014 21:37
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Kyrosiris posted:No no, while the ringer is active, just press vol-down once. That mutes the ringer (but it keeps ringing on the caller's end) and IIRC doesn't modify your volume, either. Works fine on my Droid 4 (which last time I checked, is the same phone you use). I do still use it. Must've gotten burned doing that on an earlier Android and not tried again. I shall give it a go, thank you.
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Jan 5, 2014 21:43
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My S4 active silences calls when you flip the phone face down. Works like a charm. Pissing me off: siemens step7 and oil business-mandated coding standards forcing me to implement a finite state machine in FBD. Argh, s7-graph was loving made for this.
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Jan 6, 2014 00:20
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Not pissing me off tonight - getting a call from my boss telling me the base is closed tomorrow. 3-day weekend!!
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Jan 6, 2014 04:36
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EAT THE EGGS RICOLA posted:Maybe they automatically disqualify anyone who has written more than 500 lines of code from applying. Do they count DOS batch files? 
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Jan 6, 2014 05:00
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Daylen Drazzi posted:Not pissing me off tonight - getting a call from my boss telling me the base is closed tomorrow. 3-day weekend!! High-five snow day buddy! Apparently my boss is going to show up tomorrow because he's a workaholic, but me I'm staying in with my fully stocked beer fridge. Free PTO awww yeahhhh. 
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Jan 6, 2014 05:20
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Dick Trauma posted:Do they count DOS batch files? The majority of my coding experience is VB 5/6, QBASIC, batch, and Assembly. In that order. 
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Jan 6, 2014 08:45
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Gonna be 25 below, half the state is shutdown tomorrow, including my office!
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Jan 6, 2014 09:03
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Lucky gits, since Christmas my workplace is surrounded by flooded roads and you have to either wade up or go down with a pretty drat strong current, depending on which way you want to come in. I haven't had a dry day for so long 
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Jan 6, 2014 10:05
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Pissing me off: Government Standards documentation. If I ever find someone who writes these, I will make them write one about being a hostage.
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Jan 6, 2014 10:39
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FISHMANPET posted:Gonna be 25 below, half the state is shutdown tomorrow, including my office! Man, that's enough to close you? drat. Its been -40 or lower (celcius or faranheit, take your pick, they catch up around -39 or so.) Bloody cold. And still I work. Ah well, c'est la vie. Going to get our asses kicked today by post-holiday support rush, huzzah!
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Jan 6, 2014 14:20
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I love working with customer sourced hardware. Our standard ordering basically means all the little goofy poo poo is there and tricked out by default. Forexample, the P410i cards have cache and battery backup. That allows us the utmost flexibility in how I configure disk arrays. I have a customer that wants a nice set of 10 servers with tons of storage sliced up into several arrays on each, configured according to their speed/read/write/etc requirements. Good idea! Except... code:I usually expect people to send me hardware that will do what they require if they send it. Oops.
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Jan 6, 2014 14:25
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Not really a computer related thing but since I work in a call center for TV and internet services have to get this off my chest: Why are people so loving stupid when it comes to troubleshooting issues with TV? Getting someone to reprogram a remote is a loving battle since apparently they cannot follow directions correctly. How the gently caress do these people function in life? Don't even get me started on people who call in about poo poo we can't troubleshoot like DVD players and Tablets. Go call the manufacturers of those devices you dumbass dipshits! Why are people so loving dumb when they call tech support, it pisses me off to no end. If you don't know what the gently caress you are doing or can't follow basic instructions, get your tech-savvy friends or childern to call! 
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Jan 6, 2014 15:30
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