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ManOfTheYear posted:This is true. Combat is just one aspect of gameplay: RE4 has just as lovely story as any other game out there, but the level desing, pacing, weapons system, loot, puzzles, bosses and the excellent mercenaries mode make it a great game, not just the tight combat. The time when the game appeared affects too: RE4 introduced QTEs to many people - including me - even though it wasn't a brand new thing, and in DMC4 the puzzles were already maybe a bit of a drag, but in DMC3 people didn't mind them as much. RE4 has a fantastic narrative, even if the plot itself falls short. Its an important distinction in games IMO.
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Jan 4, 2014 19:06
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toasterwarrior posted:The duels with Vergil remain the crown jewels of the character-action genre, and it's a shame that the nearest equivalent in DMC4 is only fought once. The classic Vergil Duel is in DMC1, DMC3 and DmC right? It's not in DMC4 or 2?
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Jan 4, 2014 19:35
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DatonKallandor posted:The classic Vergil Duel is in DMC1, DMC3 and DmC right? It's not in DMC4 or 2? Right. Vergil is not in DMC2 or 4, but DMC4 has a "Vergil fight".
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Jan 4, 2014 19:50
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notZaar posted:RE4 has a fantastic narrative, even if the plot itself falls short. It does? I played RE4 when it was new, so I don't really remember. Also the second best Vergil fight in the world is in Revengeance!  
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Jan 4, 2014 21:45
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ManOfTheYear posted:It does? I played RE4 when it was new, so I don't really remember. The important thing is to remember that RE was originally all about that b-movie feel, and RE4 perfectly captures the bizarre mix of action, (unintentional at times) comedy, and horror associated with b-movies. You have a giant clockwork statue of a midget Spanish nobleman chasing you at one point, goddamn!
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Jan 4, 2014 21:59
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ManOfTheYear posted:It does? I played RE4 when it was new, so I don't really remember. Yeah. The environment, the supporting characters, the monsters. It all feels like a cohesive vision. Compare that to RE5s barely connected levels that feel like random stages and everything that's good about is just imitation of what worked in RE4.
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Jan 4, 2014 23:50
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I dunno man, you go through a random door in a medieval Spanish castle and suddenly you are in a ROOM FULL OF LAVA and being attacked by mechanical dragons spitting fire. I think the developers of 4 were just shooting the piss but in a good way. RE5 was trying too hard by comparison. I'm inclined to agree with Yahtzee on this point in that RE4's saving grace was how it had barely any connection to the old, contrived RE plot while RE5 was designed to try and make sense of all that bullshit. I mean, who doesn't love Saddler saying "the American prevailing is a cliche that only happens in your Hollywood movies!" and then....the American proceeds to prevail.
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Jan 5, 2014 07:09
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Level design wise DMC3 was fun but it certainly wasn't innovative or interesting, it was office then bar getting your hopes up, then up and down a gigantic dark tower with monster belly for one level.
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Jan 6, 2014 01:35
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SectumSempra posted:Level design wise DMC3 was fun but it certainly wasn't innovative or interesting, it was office then bar getting your hopes up, then up and down a gigantic dark tower with monster belly for one level. Quite frankly, if they set the next game just in a modern city? That would be fantastic. Mix up the levels a bit with a trip through a zoo, an amusement park, different districts of the city (business, red light, residential, highway etc) and you'd have a pretty solid set of levels with awesome poo poo to fool around with.
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Jan 6, 2014 03:49
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GilliamYaeger posted:Quite frankly, if they set the next game just in a modern city? That would be fantastic. Mix up the levels a bit with a trip through a zoo, an amusement park, different districts of the city (business, red light, residential, highway etc) and you'd have a pretty solid set of levels with awesome poo poo to fool around with. Combine Devil May Cry with Parasite Eve 1's NYC playground? Now that sounds fun.
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Jan 6, 2014 04:16
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SectumSempra posted:Level design wise DMC3 was fun but it certainly wasn't innovative or interesting, it was office then bar getting your hopes up, then up and down a gigantic dark tower with monster belly for one level. It was all interconnected and had logical transitions (within the game's logic anyways.) Didn't feel like randomly hopping from one stage to another.
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Jan 6, 2014 05:04
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GilliamYaeger posted:Quite frankly, if they set the next game just in a modern city? That would be fantastic. Mix up the levels a bit with a trip through a zoo, an amusement park, different districts of the city (business, red light, residential, highway etc) and you'd have a pretty solid set of levels with awesome poo poo to fool around with. To be Devil's Advocate for a sec, isn't that what Dmc does already, minus the zoo? Because to be frank, I think (most) of the level design in Dmc is pretty solid.
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Jan 6, 2014 20:10
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I'm a staunch critic of Ninja Theory and don't think they've made any even decent games to date, but level design is by far and away their best aspect. I don't think you'll find many people who think other wise in regards to their level design skills.
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Jan 6, 2014 20:13
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Aurain posted:I'm a staunch critic of Ninja Theory and don't think they've made any even decent games to date, but level design is by far and away their best aspect. I don't think you'll find many people who think other wise in regards to their level design skills. Well it's great I heard back first from the highest rung of the optimism department then. Seriously though, Dmc's levels are mostly more than corridor-corridor-corridor with maybe three levels of solid backtracking. And the environment generally play a role in the fights you have going on, like the upcoming level will demonstrate. What's your beef with Ninja Theory's level design when compared to, say, action games of the last three years?
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Jan 6, 2014 20:55
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Next-Jin Engine posted:What's your beef with Ninja Theory's level design when compared to, say, action games of the last three years? I think he's agreeing with you? One of the best features about the game is the lack of backtracking (especially after DMC4) - there's always new environments to explore. If I had to say something bad against it, I'd say that the colour filters, and harsh blooms detract somewhat from the gameplay, especially in two upcoming areas. And that I don't think they they take enough advantage of the "area is out to kill/stop you" setting, but that's more of a general thing. How the levels are structured is pretty linear (platforming segment -> Combat -> platform -> combat, etc), but to me that's not really an issue in this sort of game.
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Jan 6, 2014 21:18
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Ah, ok. I read "by far and away their best aspect" first as "far from their best aspect," sorry for the mix-up. Edit: And yeah, the demons "tearing up the level" stuff is only sort of implemented early on, as the game goes on it's like Ninja Theory forgets about it, in the vein of many a cheap trashy Hollywood action movie where the story is only allowed to focus on one thing at a time. Next-Jin Engine fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Jan 6, 2014 |
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Jan 6, 2014 21:28
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I'm not a huge fan of DmC and Bayonetta's level design, which is mostly 'hold forward and jump around a bit until the next cutscene/enemy encounter'. The lack of loading screens is nice, though. Devil May Cry 1 had some fantastic environments, and allowing you to explore freely and find secret missions made the game more fun to replay. However, it did show you where to go next on the map screen, which is something DMC3 and 4 desperately needed. On my first playthroughs, I got horribly lost in both the tower in 3 and the castle in 4, because I didn't go into the rooms in the right order.
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Jan 6, 2014 22:08
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Pesky Splinter posted:I think he's agreeing with you? The problem is that if the level is only one linear path, it's not really exploring. You're just constantly moving forward from one cutscene to the next. At least in the previous games, you actually had a location to move around and find hidden things in, and it felt like you were exploring an actual place. I don't get a sense of cohesion from anything that happens in DmC, because so many of the cutscenes feature massive location shifts and changes of setting that make your path through the game feel less like an adventure and more just a set of "scenes" the developers thought would be cool. Contrast that with something like the God of War games, where you can often look around and see areas you've already explored (or will get to later in the game) and it feels like there wasn't really much thought put into fleshing out the setting of Limbo City. Then again, "not much thought" seems to be a running theme of everything in this game. And honestly, backtracking by its very nature is not automatically a bad thing. Hell, it's half the reason Metroidvania games are so popular. The problem is that backtracking, when done badly (DMC4), feels very lazy and cheap. But as pretty as the levels in DmC might look, there is absolutely zero substance to them. Ninja Theory can cover it up with all the fancy post-processing they want, but a linear corridor full of battle arenas is still a linear corridor full of battle arenas.
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Jan 6, 2014 22:35
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I wouldn't say the level design in DmC is anything special, but the art direction in particular is excellent and very good. The levels themselves are just paths through arenas. The limbo shifting is cool, however it has zero dynamic interaction with the player which is a shame. In the older DMC games the doors would come alive and attack the players. While this was irritating, it was more interaction with the environment than anything in DmC.
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Jan 6, 2014 22:50
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notZaar posted:I wouldn't say the level design in DmC is anything special, but the art direction in particular is excellent and very good. The levels themselves are just paths through arenas. The limbo shifting is cool, however it has zero dynamic interaction with the player which is a shame. In the older DMC games the doors would come alive and attack the players. While this was irritating, it was more interaction with the environment than anything in DmC. In Dmc the live door is a spinning ferris wheel which you can knock enemies into. This phenomenon manifests itself as well with knocking enemies off platforms and into other things. To paraphrase, got drat are we ever getting a Mad World port to other consoles or what?\ Edit: also, there are side spaces and hidden collectibles that the OP can't show because they require using weapons given to you later in the game, a la Metroid. Next-Jin Engine fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Jan 6, 2014 |
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Jan 6, 2014 22:57
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Next-Jin Engine posted:Edit: also, there are side spaces and hidden collectibles that the OP can't show because they require using weapons given to you later in the game, a la Metroid. Which is utter bullshit, because those collectibles a) count towards your S ranking for the level, and b) mostly serve no purpose other than gatekeeping that rank. They're angry yelling guys stuck in walls whom you must slay to get that S. You can play as stylishly as you want, you're not getting max props for your work unless you replay a stage later. At least the other DMC games' backtracking and persistent inventory between new games meant that the goodies you had to collect later actually could be collected later, and would still benefit you in any case. DmC's art design is quite nice. Its level design veers between uninspired and maddening.
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Jan 6, 2014 23:11
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Oxxidation posted:Which is utter bullshit, because those collectibles a) count towards your S ranking for the level, and b) mostly serve no other purpose other than gatekeeping that rank. You can play as stylishly as you want, you're not getting max props for your work unless you replay a stage later. At least the other DMC games' backtracking and persistent inventory between new games meant that the goodies you had to collect later actually could be collected later, and would still benefit you in any case. Funny that gatekeeping your rank still nets you an S, as demonstrated in this LP. But one thing I do remember is that secrets you do find stay found even when replaying on DMD with remixed mobs, when you start out with unlocked weapons. Or something, but the point is it's still a lot less fixated on treasure-spotting and more on powering up your movelist.
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Jan 6, 2014 23:18
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Next-Jin Engine posted:To be Devil's Advocate for a sec, isn't that what Dmc does already, minus the zoo? Because to be frank, I think (most) of the level design in Dmc is pretty solid. Sorta, but with significantly less 'floating platforms hovering in the void that exist for the sole purpose of providing platforming segments' and more 'actual city'. DmC favors that former thing more and more as the game goes on. Regardless, there's a massive difference in tone between most of DmC's levels and, say, early DMC3 or Onimusha 3's modern segments. Hell, grounding the locations in reality would even provide a decent reason for Dante to not just blow through locked doors and stuff ("Well, I could just cut this door in half and walk right through, but I'm pretty sure it'd be caught on camera and I've already got an awful lot of debt to pay off...") Of course, Nero being Nero and not giving a gently caress he wouldn't really have this problem, and with his Devil Arm he'd be able to traverse areas that Dante couldn't reach, thus giving the two completely different routes through the same areas. Dante runs around buildings looking for keys Resident Evil style, while Nero just goes straight forward, blasting through obstacles that Dante has to work to get past, and jumps onto roofs and poo poo. GilliamYaeger fucked around with this message at 03:03 on Jan 7, 2014 |
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Jan 7, 2014 02:54
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Next-Jin Engine posted:Funny that gatekeeping your rank still nets you an S, as demonstrated in this LP. But one thing I do remember is that secrets you do find stay found even when replaying on DMD with remixed mobs, when you start out with unlocked weapons. Or something, but the point is it's still a lot less fixated on treasure-spotting and more on powering up your movelist. Be that as it may, the highest rank is SSS and you're not getting that even if you are some kind of DmC savant unless you've collected all of the optional stuff, which is often impossible during the first visit on a level. The system is stupid and exists only to make you backtrack, same as with the keys.
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Jan 7, 2014 06:13
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Szurumbur posted:Be that as it may, the highest rank is SSS and you're not getting that even if you are some kind of DmC savant unless you've collected all of the optional stuff, which is often impossible during the first visit on a level. The system is stupid and exists only to make you backtrack, same as with the keys. Yes, but what I'm saying is that you're going to play through any Devil May Cry a minimum of three times; once on hard difficulty to unlock Dante Must Die, then Dante Must Die, to unlock Son of Sparda, then Son of Sparda, with Heaven & Hell and Hell and Hell being optional. Finding collectibles is going to take time from your "time completed score," but in Dmc, once you find a collectible on any difficulty, it stays collected, for all the difficulties. So yeah, I think that level of progression (once thru straight on hard, once thru collecting everything on DMD, and once thru on SOS) is fine, because nobody is going to be asking for your SSS on Hard when you've already got one on Son of Sparda.
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Jan 7, 2014 07:03
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Archaotic posted:And honestly, backtracking by its very nature is not automatically a bad thing. Hell, it's half the reason Metroidvania games are so popular. The problem is that backtracking, when done badly (DMC4), feels very lazy and cheap. But as pretty as the levels in DmC might look, there is absolutely zero substance to them. Ninja Theory can cover it up with all the fancy post-processing they want, but a linear corridor full of battle arenas is still a linear corridor full of battle arenas. It's like you've never played a good Metroid game. They're less about backtracking and more about a sense of place and meaningful terrain. Just using items as keys is lazy bullshit, which DMC got away with as a series because of incredibly loving good combat. This game seems like its combat is pretty good, which isn't enough to carry a game with nothing else.
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Jan 7, 2014 07:35
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Backtracking implies a continuous world full of gated content and interconnected areas. For a good example of this type of environment see Dark Souls. DmC asks you to replay levels, which is not the same thing. Frankly I don't mind replaying levels in DmC or any other game is the series since the enemies usually change and you can use your upgrades and skills to dominate the easier monsters.
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Jan 7, 2014 14:29
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Next-Jin Engine posted:Ah, ok. I read "by far and away their best aspect" first as "far from their best aspect," sorry for the mix-up. Just to confirm, I was indeed saying that Ninja Theory are very good at level design/art design. If their level designers were moved into a company who could make good games, you could see some really beautiful games come from that studio that play as good as they look. It's as though that studio is comprised of the few art majors in the world who don't habitually make penis statues out of whatever they can get their hands on and Tameem, who is there for [reason]. They just decided to make games instead of paintings.
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Jan 8, 2014 13:48
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Aurain posted:Just to confirm, I was indeed saying that Ninja Theory are very good at level design/art design. If their level designers were moved into a company who could make good games, you could see some really beautiful games come from that studio that play as good as they look. Platinum should poach 'em. They're basically what Ninja Theory wishes it could be, anyway. Just compare this game to MGR.
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Jan 8, 2014 14:04
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GilliamYaeger posted:Platinum should poach 'em. They're basically what Ninja Theory wishes it could be, anyway. Just compare this game to MGR. That actually sounds like a really good idea. A game that had Bayonetta's gameplay and Ninja Theory's world building would be pretty fantastic. Rushing around a fight with flashy over-the-top moves while dodging enemy attacks and having the level shift and distort around you would be pretty amazing.
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Jan 8, 2014 19:23
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It's not like Platinum doesn't have good artists. Consoles have limitations, and Platinum chooses to spend more of their RAM and processing power on performance rather than graphics.
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Jan 8, 2014 19:45
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Next-Jin Engine posted:Yes, but what I'm saying is that you're going to play through any Devil May Cry a minimum of three times; once on hard difficulty to unlock Dante Must Die, then Dante Must Die, to unlock Son of Sparda, then Son of Sparda, with Heaven & Hell and Hell and Hell being optional. Finding collectibles is going to take time from your "time completed score," but in Dmc, once you find a collectible on any difficulty, it stays collected, for all the difficulties. So yeah, I think that level of progression (once thru straight on hard, once thru collecting everything on DMD, and once thru on SOS) is fine, because nobody is going to be asking for your SSS on Hard when you've already got one on Son of Sparda. I have one main problem with that, and that is that the level rank becomes not a grading of your overall playing ability, but instead of your ability to find optional items/willingness to replay levels. Other DMCs also do not force you to repeat finding hidden stuff - should you complete a Secret Mission and obtain a Blue/Purple sphere it's added to your life/Devil Trigger bar and it stays there, same with upgrades bought in a shop and weapon you have found. What's more (unless the hints that the game provides are wrong, since I have not had the patience to check it) finding all of the Souls, Keys and Secret Missions guarantees SSS rank, which makes it useless for the purpose of evaluating the player's skill, since you can just find them on Human difficulty and if they stay found on higher ones and guarantee SSS rank, well... For the record, I have only played on Human, to "experience the story". I could get SSS rank on Boss levels easily, but have never obtained SSS on a non-boss levels - my Style points and completion time were often SS and SSS, but the "completion" rank, no matter how good a player I might be (and I'm not very good), would make sure that I wouldn't grade higher than S. But there is something hilarious about mashing R2+triangle and getting S rank for style 
Szurumbur fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Jan 8, 2014 |
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Jan 8, 2014 19:46
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Szurumbur posted:I have one main problem with that, and that is that the level rank becomes not a grading of your overall playing ability, but instead of your ability to find optional items/willingness to replay levels. Other DMCs also do not force you to repeat finding hidden stuff - should you complete a Secret Mission and obtain a Blue/Purple sphere it's added to your life/Devil Trigger bar and it stays there, same with upgrades bought in a shop and weapon you have found. What's more (unless the hints that the game provides are wrong, since I have not had the patience to check it) finding all of the Souls, Keys and Secret Missions guarantees SSS rank, which makes it useless for the purpose of evaluating the player's skill, since you can just find them on Human difficulty and if they stay found on higher ones and guarantee SSS rank, well... The item-finding has exactly the same effect as any previous Devil May Crys as secret missions increase your health/trigger bars, which carry over from any difficulty. It should also be noted that the Secret Missions' difficulty is not changed by what difficulty you find it on; there is only one difficulty for each Mission, which is why you can access it from the main menu rather than within a specific difficulty's menu. Previous DMCs didn't grade on secrets found; they graded on Red Orbs collected, which I assume Ninja Theory dropped because they didn't want to make players have to stop and attack every inanimate object for Orbs, or look for secret invisible caches of Orbs around the map. It's convenient to be graded once on finding secrets that'll help you achieve max health, trigger, and moves for future difficulty levels, but it's still a convenience nonetheless, which is becoming indicative of mainstream games more and more. One more thing: the difficulty levels in Dmc are way, way skewed towards newcomer-friendly. Dmc's "Hard" (Nephilim) barely qualifies for me as Normal, and I'd assume on the easiest difficulty you wouldn't even see an enemy alive long enough to complete a successful attack. Once they start remixing mobs though, spamming Eryx becomes less of a viable strategy (except on bosses, because even though I'm defending Dmc, I can't let that slide).
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Jan 8, 2014 21:12
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Next-Jin Engine posted:Once they start remixing mobs though, spamming Eryx becomes less of a viable strategy (except on bosses, because even though I'm defending Dmc, I can't let that slide). Primarily because of the stupid unfun bullshit mechanics they start throwing in, I assume.
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Jan 8, 2014 21:49
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The game is now free to PSN+ subscribers.
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Jan 8, 2014 22:23
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GilliamYaeger posted:Primarily because of the stupid unfun bullshit mechanics they start throwing in, I assume. Pretty much - more of the enemies that can only be harmed by angel/demon weapons, and enemies that can teleport, or are just flat-out immune to certain attacks except at specific points. Pesky Splinter fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Jan 8, 2014 |
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Jan 8, 2014 22:50
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notZaar posted:The game is now free to PSN+ subscribers.
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Jan 8, 2014 22:59
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Scalding Coffee posted:Is PSN+ giving away so many games for a reason? They do it pretty consistently every month to entice subscriptions and to retain subscribers. It's not a bad deal if you don't buy a lot of games.
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Jan 8, 2014 23:05
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Next-Jin Engine posted:Once they start remixing mobs though, spamming Eryx becomes less of a viable strategy (except on bosses, because even though I'm defending Dmc, I can't let that slide). I've finished DmC on DMD mode with straight SSS ranks. This is bullshit. The only time it stops being a viable strategy is when you're dealing with angelic enemies.
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Jan 9, 2014 02:00
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Scalding Coffee posted:Is PSN+ giving away so many games for a reason? Because their online service is free, so its to give an incentive to subscribe to playstation+. For playstation 4 it'll be required for online play, but still give free games. Its kinda so you'll pick them over microsoft. If you're an Eu subscriber, you also get some pretty nifty free ps+ games the US doesn't. DmC is free for Eu and US but US didn't get metal gear solid rising revengence in november like Eu.
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Jan 9, 2014 03:43
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