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Lum posted:I'm well aware of the only supported on version X problem, you're right that that exists everywhere (though oddly it's comparatively rare on stuff that depends on Microsoft runtimes) I was talking about stuff that actually breaks if it has the wrong version. I encounter this far too bloody often with "enterprise" Java apps. I have never encountered it with .net or Python, for example. It says to me that either too much stuff changes between point releases, or that things are sufficiently hard to do in Java that devs end up finding the quirks and exploits before they find the actual solution. Either way it's a problem. Lum posted:Comparing it to FlexLM isn't going to do your argument any favours here either. I think everyone hates FlexLM. Lum posted:Likewise, ancient lovely Java versions would be much more tolerable if they were bundled with the apps, but so few do this, most need them installed fully where they can be exploited by any .jar that finds its way onto your system. As much as Java is a torch-bearer of the "lovely enterprise software" world, it wasn't any better with line-of-business VB5 apps and ActiveX, and it probably won't be any better with whatever Java's eventual replacement might be. Enterprise apps are just not fun to work with.
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Jan 16, 2014 20:15
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Funnily enough I was a Python dev for 7 years, and the product I worked on never had any problems, worked fine on 2.3 (the current release when the product was launched) through 2.7 (the current release when I quit that job) without any problems. Python 3 is a completely separate beast, of course. VB5 and VB6 aren't really in the same league as the runtimes for those don't get triggered from your browser, so even if the VB6 runtime is horribly insecure, to find that vulnerability you would first have had to download and run a .EXE file, at which point if the .EXE is malicious, you're hosed anyway even if its runtime was inspected line by line by Theo himself. ActiveX can go eat a dick. I'll freely admit that it's also terrible especially since it usually goes hand in hand with its partner in crime for lovely enterprise apps that need ancient insecure buggy dependencies... IE6! At the end of the day, if you're a sysadmin, all software is poo poo. The Minecraft comment was a direct response to the "Billions of devices" screen, which you only see if you're installing Java by hand which basically means home users. These days there is little reason for a home user to have Jave other than to play Minecraft. Oracle's Java FAQ even has entries about Minecraft these days, which I think says a lot. Lum fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Jan 16, 2014 |
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Jan 16, 2014 20:28
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There were lots of breaking changes during the span of Python 2.X. I understand any pain that people have with Java on user machines, but it's really nice on servers.
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Jan 16, 2014 21:31
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libcxx posted:There were lots of breaking changes during the span of Python 2.X. I understand any pain that people have with Java on user machines, but it's really nice on servers. As long as you aren't trying to use oracles java application server, which us generally about 5 years out of date in what version of Java it supports.
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Jan 16, 2014 21:39
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Khisanth Magus posted:As long as you aren't trying to use oracles java application server, which us generally about 5 years out of date in what version of Java it supports. Or Oracle's database client, which last time I installed it bundled two different out of date java versions with it's own installer, both of which were needed to function. At least they were bundled and couldn't be executed from a browser, but this is still seriously shoddy.
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Jan 16, 2014 22:26
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Putting URGENT or EMERGENCY in your ticket subject makes me ignore it 5x longer than if you had remained calm.
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Jan 16, 2014 22:33
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TWBalls posted:Haha, right. It's John McAfee's fault their name is tainted. Couldn't possibly be their product. It's funny because just after the change was announced John McAfee himself said "I am now everlastingly grateful to Intel for freeing me from this terrible association with the worst software on the planet. These are not my words, but the words of millions of irate users."
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Jan 16, 2014 22:33
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In Denmark all banks and your access to everything provided by the Government via the internet is secured by... you guessed it a java application. The application uses three factor authentication sure, but I still need to update Java on all our client PCs and Remote desktop servers constantly.
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Jan 16, 2014 22:35
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Lum posted:Or Oracle's database client, which last time I installed it bundled two different out of date java versions with it's own installer, both of which were needed to function. It's Oracle. Oracle also requires different versions of the client for every version of Oracle you want to connect to. They just can't write software in a sane manner.
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Jan 16, 2014 22:40
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EAT THE EGGS RICOLA posted:It's something that pisses me off because Oracle hosed up their certs Samsung did EXACTLY the same thing in December. Then they took the site down for about a week. Then they sent an email out to users with a notification of planned downtime starting 2 days before the email was sent. So it could be worse.
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Jan 16, 2014 22:45
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DagPenge posted:In Denmark all banks and your access to everything provided by the Government via the internet is secured by... you guessed it a java application. The application uses three factor authentication sure, but I still need to update Java on all our client PCs and Remote desktop servers constantly. Oh, but wasn't there a time when it needed an old version of Java?
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Jan 16, 2014 22:47
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DagPenge posted:In Denmark all banks and your access to everything provided by the Government via the internet is secured by... you guessed it a java application. The application uses three factor authentication sure, but I still need to update Java on all our client PCs and Remote desktop servers constantly. It could always be worse.
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Jan 16, 2014 22:54
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Sylink posted:Putting URGENT or EMERGENCY in your ticket subject makes me ignore it 5x longer than if you had remained calm. We let users set their own priority level for tickets (  ). I don't think I've ever seen a ticket not set to Urgent or Emergency. URGENT!!!! FIX IMMEDIATELY! The printer in my room is out of ink and even though I have 5 more I can print to, this is hindering my ability to work.Thing pissing me off this week: A whole bunch of desktops have decided to stop talking to KMS and now think they're all running pirated versions of Windows. I've tried everything I can think of to get them to talk to KMS again but they refuse and claim that all of our MAK keys are invalid. Unless anyone here has seen something similar and might know of something that I haven't tried yet, I'm admitting defeat after trying to fix it for a week. Thing not pissing me off this week: Tomorrow we finally get to put our old NetApp out to pasture. There shall be much rejoicing.
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Jan 16, 2014 23:04
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DagPenge posted:In Denmark all banks and your access to everything provided by the Government via the internet is secured by... you guessed it a java application. The application uses three factor authentication sure, but I still need to update Java on all our client PCs and Remote desktop servers constantly. The US Patent & Trademark Office uses certificates and a Java applet. If you update Java too quickly after a new release or if you take too long to update, the applet stops working. Whoo
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Jan 16, 2014 23:21
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A lot of the hate for Java early on was because of the need for the runtime. A smart arse 1st year comp sci major would make a hello world app in java and run a memory profiler on it and see the JRE using about 40mb of the 256mb RAM in their awesome P2 gamebox. Compared to their optimised hello world written in C Java was a huge memory hog and is bloated etc. This reputation stuck with Java for a long time and people still complain about Java using up their precious RAM.
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Jan 16, 2014 23:28
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Varkk posted:A lot of the hate for Java early on was because of the need for the runtime. A smart arse 1st year comp sci major would make a hello world app in java and run a memory profiler on it and see the JRE using about 40mb of the 256mb RAM in their awesome P2 gamebox. Compared to their optimised hello world written in C Java was a huge memory hog and is bloated etc. This reputation stuck with Java for a long time and people still complain about Java using up their precious RAM. Ah, for the days when resource scarcity was the biggest problem with java.
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Jan 16, 2014 23:33
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Che Delilas posted:Ah, for the days when resource scarcity was the biggest problem with java. This. No-one has complained about it's RAM use or described it as a "bloated mess". The closest was me complaining that Java apps tend to be slow. Something I still find to be the case even on today's quad core i7 systems. The size and RAM use was also a common complaint about .net1.1 back in those days.
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Jan 16, 2014 23:43
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As far as Java vs .NET, .NET updates don't even enter my day to day consciousness. They just happen. Java updates are a never ending pain in the rear end, not just because of the effort required to push them out (which, even if minimal, is still more than "nothing", which is .NET), but because MOST LIKELY some app or other will break. And it will probably be critical. evol262, I realize you want everyone to give Java a fair shake and not just kneejerk that it's terrible because of things that are mostly app developers' fault, but whether it's because I haven't encountered a lot of .NET enterprise apps or not, the impression of Java is that the whole environment is poo poo. I don't care that the language and runtime might be fine - when my client's payroll app demands Java 6 update 18 and will probably break with the unsigned applet blocking that they just implemented in 7u51, guess what, I don't give a poo poo how OK the language and runtime are because my day is loving ruined (well, at least mildly impacted) because of it. As long as that's the case, the impression of Java as a pile of crap all around will persist. If you want to contact ADP and tell them to get their poo poo together, be my guest.
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Jan 16, 2014 23:46
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That's assuming the latest Java update even installs, and doesn't randomly crap out, removing the old one from Add/Remove programs, leaving half the files still around on your system and forcing you to manually remove it. I'll freely admit to being a poo poo .net developer. I was pushed into doing this when I changed jobs 4 years ago and the app that is out there now was written while I was still learning the language. At some point down the line it's probably going to run some poor sysadmin's day long after I've gotten out of this job and back into sysadmin where I belong. It has not once been hosed up by a .net update. The same is true for our main product which is several orders of magnitude larger than mine. It just carries on working through every update, and most of our devs aren't much better than me. I don't know if it's because the dev environment encourages better practices, if it's because something about the design of .net makes it harder to write code that is lovely in that way, but there is something going on that is more fundamental than "hurr, lovely devs can't code properly".
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Jan 16, 2014 23:53
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Speaking as a consumer of Java rather than an administrator of it, the thing which pisses me off about it the most is the underhanded bundling tactics in the installer. There's something incredibly scummy about pushing out a "super-critical-most-urgent" update which then attempts to install the Ask.com toolbar and a trial version of McAfee Antivirus. They've even gone to the trouble of pre-selecting the 'yes' checkbox and making it so you have to actually click the checkbox to deselect it, whereas every UI designer I've ever used always sets the checkbox label as a toggle as well for usability purposes - they've actually gone out of their way to screw people who are used to standard UI conventions. Why yes, of course it's a good idea to make your critical security update look like a dodgy repackaged app full of spyware. My parents, who do pretty well with computers for their age, had a period where they didn't install Java updates for a long time because the installer raised most of the red flags I'd taught them with regard to installers that are probably up to no good. rolleyes fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Jan 17, 2014 |
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Jan 17, 2014 00:08
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It really is lovely devs, sorry. Applets, webstart, and apps using apache launcher can all be hosed by updates because devs made assumptions about version numbers or client machines, security policies, or even depending on a particular JRE. As long as we're doing anecdotes, my company runs a fairly major web service on Java. It's survived since Java 6u7, through to today where its running on Java 7u51. You guys have some kind of test suite to run before installing updates, right?
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Jan 17, 2014 00:15
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Lum posted:I don't know if it's because the dev environment encourages better practices, if it's because something about the design of .net makes it harder to write code that is lovely in that way, but there is something going on that is more fundamental than "hurr, lovely devs can't code properly". It probably helps that .net is from the manufacturer of the OS it runs on and can slip .net framework updates into the base Windows Updates packages.
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Jan 17, 2014 00:17
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Potato Alley posted:evol262, I realize you want everyone to give Java a fair shake and not just kneejerk that it's terrible because of things that are mostly app developers' fault, but whether it's because I haven't encountered a lot of .NET enterprise apps or not, the impression of Java is that the whole environment is poo poo. I don't care that the language and runtime might be fine - when my client's payroll app demands Java 6 update 18 and will probably break with the unsigned applet blocking that they just implemented in 7u51, guess what, I don't give a poo poo how OK the language and runtime are because my day is loving ruined (well, at least mildly impacted) because of it. As long as that's the case, the impression of Java as a pile of crap all around will persist. If you want to contact ADP and tell them to get their poo poo together, be my guest. Kindly tell them that 6u18 came out 4 years ago and that 6 is dead. Applets are problematic because this poo poo can hang out forever and it depends on you having it, but I'm not vested in Java any more than any other language. I don't even particularly like Java. Bad developers write bad software in any language. It happens to be Java because it's popular. Just like PHP got a bad rap because of the slew of awful PHP developers in 2005. If your client's payroll app demanded .NET 1.5 (also dead, also basically unavailable on modern operating systems), Carbon on OSX (also dead), or some other abomination it'd be just as awful. The Java ecosystem is bad because software in general is bad, which is what I keep hinting at with references to dated technologies everyone hates.
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Jan 17, 2014 00:18
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rolleyes posted:Speaking as a consumer of Java rather than an administrator of it, the thing which pisses me off about it the most is the underhanded bundling tactics in the installer. You'd think that someone in marketing there would be complaining that the damage it does to their name must outweigh the kickback they get from Ask/Mcafee
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Jan 17, 2014 00:18
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spog posted:You'd think that someone in marketing there would be complaining that the damage it does to their name must outweigh the kickback they get from Ask/Mcafee The only people actually installing Java on desktops are cjs (who can't do poo poo, and who no one listens to) and minecraft players. No one cares.
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Jan 17, 2014 00:20
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Onsite techs who can't follow simple instructions - How does quote:- Once onsite call skooky for further instructions Get translated to quote:- Replace all parts and leave site immediately without telling anyone Congratulations on ruining both our days you incompetent twat
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Jan 17, 2014 01:05
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evol262 posted:
On a tangent but whatever fucknut came up with flexlm will die upon a loving smashed whiskey bottle if I ever run into them.
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Jan 17, 2014 02:33
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One of our business units has just now decided that the maintenance window we arranged for their quarterly server patches (which overlapped with some other systems that also needed overnight maintenance windows) won't work for them this quarter, so now after working day and night all next weekend patching other servers and doing some big server moves, I'm going to have to get up at 3AM on a work night the next week and spend a few hours rebooting their stuff (and then go into work for a full day afterwards, of course, since after-hours and weekend work is in addition to your normal work hours around here...  ).
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Jan 17, 2014 03:14
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Speaking of Java, Java 7 R51 won't run an app that doesn't have it's permissions set right. That's gonna break a whole bunch of infrastructure, including probably our Cisco GUI clients.
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Jan 17, 2014 04:45
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I don't know how relevant it is per se, but with all this discussion about java I just downloaded the latest jdk and went back to try out some of my code from university back in the early 2000's, and everything seems to compile and run fine. If you install the jdk instead of the jre you get all the development stuff on top of the stuff in the jre, but no ads or requests to install anything extra, interestingly enough. I remember how pissed I was when I heard that Oracle was buying out Sun, they run everything into the ground and never innovate on anything.
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Jan 17, 2014 05:40
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mllaneza posted:Speaking of Java, Java 7 R51 won't run an app that doesn't have it's permissions set right. That's gonna break a whole bunch of infrastructure, including probably our Cisco GUI clients. The ADSM client for our ASA blew up with R51, hooray!
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Jan 17, 2014 05:49
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spog posted:You'd think that someone in marketing there would be complaining that the damage it does to their name must outweigh the kickback they get from Ask/Mcafee Oracle must have been getting quite the kickback from Ask because the installer didn't just add Ask to the install queue, instead it immediately started a delayed install that would wait 600 seconds after you clicked it before it ran msiexec. That has caught me off guard before on non-managed systems, and convinced me that Oracle wasn't just young and needed the money, but the are indeed a bunch of untrustworthy cunts.
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Jan 17, 2014 08:25
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Just to add some extra coal to the fire here: So yeah, you can moan about Adobe all you like (and boy, is it fun to). Turns out, their issues are a gnat's fart compared to the hurricane of issues with Java. HalloKitty fucked around with this message at 12:18 on Jan 17, 2014 |
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Jan 17, 2014 09:55
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mllaneza posted:Speaking of Java, Java 7 R51 won't run an app that doesn't have it's permissions set right. That's gonna break a whole bunch of infrastructure, including probably our Cisco GUI clients. What bothers me about Java isn't Java, its the devs. My company supports a program that needs a certain version of Java to run. They're bringing out a newer version that won't run on the old version and the old version isn't going to be updated. That's going to be fun to support when clients end up getting both.
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Jan 17, 2014 12:17
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dogstile posted:What bothers me about Java isn't Java, its the devs. My company supports a program that needs a certain version of Java to run. They're bringing out a newer version that won't run on the old version and the old version isn't going to be updated. That's going to be fun to support when clients end up getting both. Like it or not, developers are going to use inadvisable methods to get the job done in whatever language they are using. Lum I think said this before: there is something in Java itself that allows bad devs to gently caress things up in ways that .Net does not allow. Bad developers are everywhere, and even good developers are going to find strange and stupid ways to do things if the platform lets them. .Net seems more bulletproof in this regard. Full disclosure: I am a .Net developer. Also, to be completely fair, I have run into one instance of a .Net application that would throw a framework not found error if you did a fresh install of .Net 4.5 Framework without installing 4.0 first. So big minus points for Microsoft there, especially since 4.5 completely replaces 4.0. At least it says it does, but it obviously leaves out some kind of registry entry that 4.0 creates, or something.
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Jan 17, 2014 12:48
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Che Delilas posted:Also, to be completely fair, I have run into one instance of a .Net application that would throw a framework not found error if you did a fresh install of .Net 4.5 Framework without installing 4.0 first. So big minus points for Microsoft there, especially since 4.5 completely replaces 4.0. At least it says it does, but it obviously leaves out some kind of registry entry that 4.0 creates, or something. Any chance of running Process Explorer on that and seeing what it's doing? I'm genuinely curious. I want to know if it's doing something really dumb like checking the contents of the Uninstall registry keys to see if the uninstaller for 4.0 is there, or something stupid like that.
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Jan 17, 2014 14:01
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Lum" port="424548996 posted:I want to know if it's doing something really dumb like checking the contents of the Uninstall registry keys to see if the uninstaller for 4.0 is there, or something stupid like that. Haha, oh god. Well, no language can stop people from making arbitrary specific checks.
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Jan 17, 2014 14:24
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Che Delilas posted:Like it or not, developers are going to use inadvisable methods to get the job done in whatever language they are using. Lum I think said this before: there is something in Java itself that allows bad devs to gently caress things up in ways that .Net does not allow. Bad developers are everywhere, and even good developers are going to find strange and stupid ways to do things if the platform lets them. .Net seems more bulletproof in this regard. .NET and Java are so close on a language and practice level that this is an unfathomable assertion. .NET (and Visual Studio) have a smaller surface area, in that you can have your app target a particular, very broad version of the framework. You don't have to worry about whether it's 4.0.3412341.2 or 4.0.543534.32, because .NET assemblies don't care, but you can set <supportedRuntime version="4.0.543534.32"> for an assembly just as easily as you can set <j2se version="1.7.32">, but nobody does. I don't know why it's common practice in Java-land, but this is another developer problem, not a runtime problem. HalloKitty posted:Just to add some extra coal to the fire here: Read the actual report. 75% of Cisco's profiled users are still running Java6. 90% are running versions of Java7 which haven't been updated. It's not Java's fault that people are running around with 7u18 and getting hit with exploits. Examining CVEs clearly shows that Java itself is no less secure than any particular version of Windows, Flash, Office, or other large applications. But it's disingenuous to blame Java because people are running around with unpatched versions.
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Jan 17, 2014 16:03
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Pissing me off: mouth-breathers on conference calls. Learn to use loving mute already. Lync and Skype both support hotkeys.
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Jan 17, 2014 16:41
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We have a couple people with Dutch last names where I work, and of course we get people that try to email them but can't get someones email address right even if they are typing it from a business card or sales flyer. You end up with a name like 'Dave Graaf' The guy then calls in to complain he's not getting all the emails he should. I take a look at the logs, and sure enough people are emailing dave.graff, dave.graf, poo poo like that. Either doubling the wrong letter or not doubling the right letter, because they don't speak freaky-deaky Dutch. The question becomes "Well can't you just make dave.graff forward the email to dave.graaf?" At first thought it's a fairly reasonable request assuming your email aliases are free. But it doesn't fix the problem. What do you do?
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