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greatn posted:The Finlay angle was really good actually. The announcers kept building up Benoit/Booker, when all of a sudden Finlay defeated Booker for the title I'm a Reebok nitro match. Benoit considered himself number one contender and fought Finlay, but Finlay successfully defended. Then they had a best of seven to determine who would get to face Finlay at the ppv. Meanwhile Finlay defended continuously, putting on good matches against other mid cards for a few weeks. Hart tried to help Benoit win to get him to join the nWo but Benoit refused, setting up the 8th match. If Finlay ended up elevated by this, it'd be fine. He wasn't. He was reduced to below TV title level, rarely got PPV matches and in 99 was put into the god awful hardcore division. They basically just threw him in there for the hell of it.
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Feb 15, 2014 00:39
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I loved that storyline and the TV Title booking in general around that time. I believe guys like Saturn and Martel did a lot of good work around then too. Just a lot of good wrestlers wrestling good matches over a coveted title that was defended frequently. Wrestling 101. But yeah, the problem with Finlay's insertion was that Benoit basically couldn't win a title in WCW and that seemed like it was finally going to be the chance for him to be a singles star. So as much as I like Finlay and am glad he got a run it was really deflating at the time that Benoit got sidestepped once again.
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Feb 15, 2014 00:51
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MassRafTer posted:Hart tried to help Benoit win to get him to join the nWo but Benoit refused, setting up the 8th match. If Finlay ended up elevated by this, it'd be fine. He wasn't. He was reduced to below TV title level, rarely got PPV matches and in 99 was put into the god awful hardcore division. They basically just threw him in there for the hell of it. I think Finlay was elevated, they just immediately wasted it after.
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Feb 15, 2014 00:53
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Bischoff isn't any more unlikable than the typical TV exec.
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Feb 15, 2014 00:58
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Dario the Wop posted:Considering the Gold Club allegations, Bischoff wouldn't qualify for that particular division. Pretty sure the allegations largely are just "Likes to watch his wife gently caress strippers". Which is mildly sleazy but hardly rape.
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Feb 15, 2014 01:14
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He even looks kinda like that guy from Showgirls.
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Feb 15, 2014 01:15
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El Gallinero Gros posted:Pretty sure the allegations largely are just "Likes to watch his wife gently caress strippers". Which is mildly sleazy but hardly rape.
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Feb 15, 2014 01:50
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Bischoff's dimestore psychoanalysis of Vince, while possibly accurate, is kind of funny to me because when I started watching WCW in late '97 I instantly pegged him as a guy who'd never been popular/"cool" and compensated for it by booking himself into the nWo as a way of hanging out with the "cool guys" faction. Also I really dug both Finlay and Regal in WCW and I'm kind of sad my period of not watching wrestling had me miss Finlay's WWE run and Regal's second WWE run where he actually won championships and poo poo.
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Feb 15, 2014 02:02
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greatn posted:He even looks kinda like that guy from Showgirls. Dale Cooper?
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Feb 15, 2014 02:17
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greatn posted:He even looks kinda like that guy from Showgirls. That rings oddly true, not just in the looks department.
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Feb 15, 2014 02:19
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fatherdog posted:Bischoff's dimestore psychoanalysis of Vince, while possibly accurate, is kind of funny to me because when I started watching WCW in late '97 I instantly pegged him as a guy who'd never been popular/"cool" and compensated for it by booking himself into the nWo as a way of hanging out with the "cool guys" faction. I wish I could show a room of psychologists that video-clip of Eric Bischoff dressing up as Vince McMahon and then making out with Stephanie from the Smackdown Halloween Special. Just to see how fast they pull out their notepads and start furiously taking notes.
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Feb 15, 2014 02:24
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Jerusalem posted:I wish I could show a room of psychologists that video-clip of Eric Bischoff dressing up as Vince McMahon and then making out with Stephanie from the Smackdown Halloween Special. Just to see how fast they pull out their notepads and start furiously taking notes. Follow it up with some WBF
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Feb 15, 2014 02:28
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We need that Vince wbf gif in here.
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Feb 15, 2014 02:38
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greatn posted:The Finlay angle was really good actually. The announcers kept building up Benoit/Booker, when all of a sudden Finlay defeated Booker for the title I'm a Reebok nitro match. Can't let this magnificent autocorrect pass by unnoticed.
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Feb 15, 2014 05:03
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What's the general consensus on Perry Saturn? Underachiever? Overachiever? I know he always got lumped in with Benoit, Malenko and Eddie, but I always kinda felt like it was just by association what with all of them coming from ECW and all of them jumping ship to WWE at the same time rather than sheer in ring skill. He had some cool moves (I love Death Valley Drivers) but no one ever seemed to know what to do with him as a singles performer and he got stuck in comedy gimmicks at the tail end of both his WCW (wearing a dress) and WWE (Moppy) runs. My only exposure to his tag team work with Kronus was years after the fact on Youtube. Good stuff and Joey Styles flipping a poo poo over Total Elimination was always great. Did WCW or even WWE later ever push to sign Kronus and reform the Eliminators? It seems really weird to only sign one half of a well-known tag team. What was the story there?
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Feb 15, 2014 08:48
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C. Everett Koop posted:Can't let this magnificent autocorrect pass by unnoticed. Finlay always looked like he'd make a good shoe-t fighter. 
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Feb 15, 2014 08:51
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Here's a question, Bob Sapp was originally signed as a developmental wrestler in WCW when it was brought out by WWE and doesn't seem to have had wrestled for either company. Has WWE or TNA either tried to get Sapp on board? I guess it would be an issue of money, as Sapp made a shitload of cash in Japan, so wrestling in the U.S. might not be worth his while.
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Feb 15, 2014 10:04
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Say Nothing posted:Here's a question, Bob Sapp was originally signed as a developmental wrestler in WCW when it was brought out by WWE and doesn't seem to have had wrestled for either company. Sapp was the original candidate for the Lashley push but Sapp wouldn't agree to the road schedule. TNA couldn't afford Sapp when his name meant something and probably couldn't afford him now.
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Feb 15, 2014 10:12
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Dario the Wop posted:IIRC one of the strippers alleged he and/or his wife tried to rape her. Quick Google search other than an old Hyatte column (remember him?) doesn't bring up anything concrete, so I am probably wrong.
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Feb 15, 2014 10:13
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Occupy Japan posted:Did WCW or even WWE later ever push to sign Kronus and reform the Eliminators? It seems really weird to only sign one half of a well-known tag team. What was the story there? He ditched Kronus to sign with WCW after refusing to reform the Eliminators in ECW so there was probably a bit of animosity there.
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Feb 15, 2014 10:49
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Occupy Japan posted:no one ever seemed to know what to do with him as a singles performer and he got stuck in comedy gimmicks at the tail end of both his WCW (wearing a dress) and WWE (Moppy) runs. I think Saturn was good and could've been a solid upper card utility player (perfect guy for tag title runs with different partners, secondary title runs), but there was bad booking and drug abuse at play so it wasn't to be.
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Feb 15, 2014 11:44
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Dario the Wop posted:Don't know about Saturn BTS in WCW, but his WWE gimmick with Moppy punishment for shooting on a jobber. I always chalked the WCW dress gimmick as WCW just being WCW and misusing talent, though it should be noted by the time he and Raven were a tag team Saturn had transitioned from evening gown to what can only be described as a leather battle kilt. It rocked. Totally forgot all about this until you mentioned it. Had to go and look up a picture to refresh my memory.   That's actually a huge improvement over his "bald dude with jorts" attire and it's a shame they didn't run with it more. Dude looks legit terrifying here. Didn't he also change his entrance theme while he was wearing dresses? If so, that's a shame. The air raid siren was awesome. Simple as it was, I always felt like it was one of the best WCW themes: simple, unique, not a Jimmy Hart sound-a-like and very fitting. When the siren hit, you knew someone was about to eat a bunch of suplexes and DVDs.
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Feb 15, 2014 12:36
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Wearing a dress was Perry Saturns idea. He thought that by doing so he would stand out more and be memorable in a mid card full of interchangeable guys. Jericho's talked about how when they had a "loser wears a dress" match coming up he was convinced he was going to end up in it to kill his heat on his way out to the WWE, but Saturn lobbied hard to get the spot instead.
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Feb 15, 2014 16:16
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Nattle kilt Saturn is the Saturn I remember best; I was confused when I saw him in jorts later. I remember him having the spot where he stuck a guy's head under it while he did the ten-count punches on the turnbuckle.Say Nothing posted:Has WWE or TNA either tried to get Sapp on board? I guess it would be an issue of money, as Sapp made a shitload of cash in Japan, so wrestling in the U.S. might not be worth his while.
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Feb 15, 2014 17:59
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Bischoff's major downfall seems to have been that he got sucked into this rock-star mentality with Hogan, Nash, Hall, etc.- he made himself one of the gang on screen, let them influence the booking off screen (apparently beyond the range of any creative control they had in their contracts), and generally turned the nWo from a dominant heel stable into a bunch of guys who were honestly convinced they were the future of the entire business.
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Feb 15, 2014 18:02
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fatherdog posted:Bischoff's dimestore psychoanalysis of Vince, while possibly accurate, is kind of funny to me because when I started watching WCW in late '97 I instantly pegged him as a guy who'd never been popular/"cool" and compensated for it by booking himself into the nWo as a way of hanging out with the "cool guys" faction. Maxwell Lord posted:Bischoff's major downfall seems to have been that he got sucked into this rock-star mentality with Hogan, Nash, Hall, etc.- he made himself one of the gang on screen, let them influence the booking off screen (apparently beyond the range of any creative control they had in their contracts), and generally turned the nWo from a dominant heel stable into a bunch of guys who were honestly convinced they were the future of the entire business.
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Feb 15, 2014 18:11
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Occupy Japan posted:What's the general consensus on Perry Saturn? Underachiever? Overachiever? I know he always got lumped in with Benoit, Malenko and Eddie, but I always kinda felt like it was just by association what with all of them coming from ECW and all of them jumping ship to WWE at the same time rather than sheer in ring skill. He had some cool moves (I love Death Valley Drivers) but no one ever seemed to know what to do with him as a singles performer and he got stuck in comedy gimmicks at the tail end of both his WCW (wearing a dress) and WWE (Moppy) runs. My only exposure to his tag team work with Kronus was years after the fact on Youtube. Good stuff and Joey Styles flipping a poo poo over Total Elimination was always great. I think Saturn gets underrated or forgotten, as he was a solid in-ring worker, but I think his ideal spot was as as a bruiser suplex machine in the tag division. He was kind of too small to get a featured singles push at the time, but he was definitely in his element throwing around guys Kidman's size. As for Kronus, I think Perry wanted to stop working with him because Kronus was doing a life-threatening amount of drugs at the time. My understanding is that Kronus was a real piece of work and probably considered way too big a liability to be worth putting on TV. Speaking of drug addicts, remember when the IWC thought Mike Awesome was going to be a big deal? "He's big but he does stupid, dangerous bumps! That makes him better than the dopes in WWF over 6'6" that don't leave their feet 10 times a match! If only WCW books him correctly, he'll be a world champ!"
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Feb 15, 2014 18:17
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Eh, ECW used him well enough. He was a huge-rear end guy who could bust out topes out of nowhere. The other part of his character was that he was reckless as all hell and would kill you with his powerbombs, and *that* obviously wasn't going to fly elsewhere (although it didn't stop him from trying). And then WCW turned him into That 70s Guy, which is just...what in the hell? You're not even trying. Actually go even further, you're actively trying *not* to make this guy into anything but a punchline.
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Feb 15, 2014 19:08
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Saturn and Raven had some awesome tag matches in the summer of 99 against Benoit/Malenko, Harlem Heat, Misterio/Kidman, Jersey Triad (one of my favorite stables ever), and I think Barry Windham and someone else (Kendall Windham?) I remember that time fondly. Mike Awesome had everything needed to be a huge star: height, muscles, ability, decent charisma, and world-class mullet. The endless parade of retarded gimmicks killed his heat and it's really too bad because he was very good.
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Feb 15, 2014 19:28
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Awesome was a pretty great big man. I had no idea people thought different. Even in WCW's years of misuse he still wrestled good matches in the midcard without all the psychotic chair battles and reckless over the top powerbombs from ECW. I don't know if he ever could have risen to main event status in WCW or WWE but no one besides Paul Heyman ever booked him half way well enough to really see. But you can't possibly tell me the guy wasn't at least as good a wrestler as other successful big men like Kane.laz0rbeak posted:As for Kronus, I think Perry wanted to stop working with him because Kronus was doing a life-threatening amount of drugs at the time. My understanding is that Kronus was a real piece of work and probably considered way too big a liability to be worth putting on TV. Yeah, if my memory serves me correctly Saturn straight up hated Kronus. Saturn had a rep as a pretty serious athlete and Kronus had a rep as a lazy partier. He always struggled with his weight and had a lot of drug problems. So I may be misremembering it but I always thought Saturn was actively trying to get away from Kronus. Which is a bit of a shame because they were an awesome tag team and Kronus just went downhill fast once it was done.
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Feb 15, 2014 19:31
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Dumb question, how tall was Mike Awesome? Googling around I keep seeing him billed as 6'7" or 6'8", but I also see a bunch of pictures where he looks at most a few inches taller than guys like Raven/Crowbar/Paul Heyman. He's easily got six inches on Taz, but Taz is what, 5'8"? I wasn't playing close attention to WCW by the point Mike Awesome showed up, and he wasn't long for the WWF Invasion, but I remember him looking decidedly less monstrous once he hit the Big Two. Maybe it was just because circa 2000 WWF/WCW was overloaded with giants, but he just sort of blended into the midground of the Alliance.
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Feb 15, 2014 23:28
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According to his theme music he was 6 foot, 6 inches. He is also angry, mean, and a living, breathing war machine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hQ_DZzWmT0
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Feb 15, 2014 23:45
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Mike Awesome arrived in WCW DOA in my eyes because he was wearing a fanny pack on his debut run in. Jorts, too, but I can forgive jorts. Fanny packs are just a bridge too far. It's really surprising that considering what a walking nepotism machine Hulk Hogan was - getting jobs for all his IRL friends and former WWF buddies - that his own family never really got super huge pushes. Wasn't Mike Awesome Hogan's cousin or something? And Horus was his nephew. Really weird when you think that Hogan pushed mad hard to get loving Hacksaw and the Nasty Boys primo spots but didn't really give two shits about getting Horus (who had a ***** match to his name and was capable of being a solid if not quite stand out worker) and Mike Awesome (who had the potential to be a huge deal) good spots on the card.
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Feb 15, 2014 23:59
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Occupy Japan posted:Mike Awesome arrived in WCW DOA in my eyes because he was wearing a fanny pack on his debut run in. Jorts, too, but I can forgive jorts. Fanny packs are just a bridge too far. Hacksaw got pushed in his first year but after that he was just a guy. The Nasties were basically just guys during Hogan's entire run, their biggest WCW push was before he came in. Hogan was gone from WCW soon after Awesome debuted and Awesome's depush happened after Hogan was gone. It's not like he could do much when he was suing the company, even if he wanted to. Awesome was a guy who could get over, but he also needed to be pushed incredibly strong and have his opponents kill themselves to do so. The WCW roster rightly wasn't going to be as willing to do that, and Awesome was a limited worker when guys weren't flying backwards over the top rope through tables. Horace wasn't hot poo poo in the ring either, I don't think you should be using that five star match as evidence of anything.
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Feb 16, 2014 00:12
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Hogan tried his hardest to give Horace and Awesome a little bit of a rub in 2000, both guys were brought into be players in his feud with Kidman. While Hogan didn't sell anything that Kidman did to him, he actually took some bumps off of Awesomes offence and tried to make him look good, and at one point got saved from a beatdown by Horace who cut the "this isn't about new blood, this is about my blood" promo that got the announcers tripping over each other to try and sell it as a shoot. Maybe it might have gone somewhere, but both angles were dropped even before Hogan left, as the ADHD booking just moved everyone onto different things.
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Feb 16, 2014 00:26
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MassRafTer posted:Hacksaw got pushed in his first year but after that he was just a guy. The Nasties were basically just guys during Hogan's entire run, their biggest WCW push was before he came in. Hogan was gone from WCW soon after Awesome debuted and Awesome's depush happened after Hogan was gone. It's not like he could do much when he was suing the company, even if he wanted to. Awesome was a guy who could get over, but he also needed to be pushed incredibly strong and have his opponents kill themselves to do so. The WCW roster rightly wasn't going to be as willing to do that, and Awesome was a limited worker when guys weren't flying backwards over the top rope through tables. Horace wasn't hot poo poo in the ring either, I don't think you should be using that five star match as evidence of anything. This is kind of getting away from the point I was trying to make, but pushing Duggan at all was possibly the worst investment WCW ever made, considering who it was at the expense of. If he kinda disappeared after a while, that kind of makes it even worse as it makes the investment in him even more worthless. I guess I wasn't totally sure about Hogan's status with WCW when Awesome was brought in so thank you for the correction there (legit, no snark, I like learning about this stuff since the stupidity of WCW fascinates me), but as far as Horace goes, all my comments were meant to be in the scope of other people associated with Hogan and I guess I should have clarified my point better. Dude was actually IN a 5 star match and managed to not gently caress it up as compared to Brian Knobbs who was a sloppy stupid piece of poo poo that stiffed people and didn't have a single good match in WCW (possibly ever? I dunno, I'm not a huge Nasty Boys fan to say the least), Tiny Lister sorta reprising his role from a lovely movie Hogan was in years before (even for just one match), Ed Leslie who was just about as worthless as Hacksaw except he wasn't put over someone like Steve Austin so I guess there's that, etc. I did not mean to compare him to the roster as a whole.
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Feb 16, 2014 01:57
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Occupy Japan posted:This is kind of getting away from the point I was trying to make, but pushing Duggan at all was possibly the worst investment WCW ever made, considering who it was at the expense of. If he kinda disappeared after a while, that kind of makes it even worse as it makes the investment in him even more worthless. The Nasty Boys were in two great and somewhat influential matches against Cactus Jack in 94, and have a smattering of good matches to their credit before and after that peak. Being in a five star garbage match does not make you a great worker. Taz and Brian Lee were in a five star match. Hacksaw going over Austin didn't sink Austin in WCW, it was obviously a dumb move, but it hardly ranks near the bottom of Hogan related WCW moves. It's not like he quit the next day or was fired because of that match. Hell, Ed Leslie main eventing Starrcade was dumber. Both Duggan and Leslie didn't do much after their initial pushes, they'd get short, brief pushes but they were mostly just guys with jobs. Hogan might have friends come in for a paycheck, he might have enemies brought in to put him over, he might have friends pushed, he might have friends who were complete jobbers. Hogan rarely looked out for people. He became friends with Goldberg just to protect his spot, same way he'd make friends with a lot of people. For years wrestlers wouldn't speak out against Hogan because they knew he might end up in power somewhere. He would make friends and use them, trash them behind their back, whatever it took. Family meant something to Hogan, but he wasn't going to go above and beyond for anyone.
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Feb 16, 2014 02:31
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A few months ago the topic of WCW's iPPVs came up, their pay per listen audio PPVs of two major WCW house shows in 1998. Fan cam footage from the LA show was linked on the board today: Hogan vs Sting IN A STEEL CAGE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4qM1iqHodw Giant and Hart vs Nash and Luger https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytG-KlvPAeg Hennig vs Goldberg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAM9UjPRITk
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Feb 16, 2014 04:29
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First thing I notice is the amount of beer that the Hulkster cops and second how he's just got that aura about him. And then I saw the finish of the match. At a house show. Really? I mean, really WCW?
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Feb 16, 2014 05:06
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MassRafTer posted:Hacksaw going over Austin didn't sink Austin in WCW, it was obviously a dumb move, but it hardly ranks near the bottom of Hogan related WCW moves. It's not like he quit the next day or was fired because of that match. Hell, Ed Leslie main eventing Starrcade was dumber. It wasn't just that he went over, it's *how* he went over. Austin was pegged by everyone as being a future megastar from roughly his second week in the business. Flair was grooming him to be a top of the card heel. He had the second most prestigious singles title in the company and was in his prime and could work his rear end off in the ring. You'd think this would spare him from being buried once Hogan and co. came in. Instead, we were treated to a squash match where Austin is beat clean in the center of the ring after a single backdrop from Duggan. Duggan had never even held a title in the WWF, but due to being from the WWF, WCW felt the need to put him over big no matter who he was or whether or not he deserved it or would draw money. If it had been Savage or Hogan or someone squashing Austin it would have still been lovely but at least the perspective would have been "former world champ > current us champ". It was beyond terrible for Duggan to do it. If you're having a massive influx of talent from another fed, it's a good idea to make newcomers look like a credible threat but not to the extent that you're sending the message that even their shittiest talent is so vastly better than your champions that they're beating them in one move 5 seconds after the bell rings.
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Feb 16, 2014 06:15
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