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German Joey posted:the way i feel about all the, air-quotes, "roguelike-likes," that are basically just platformers and fpses or whatever that have fuckall to do with any gameplay elements from rogue, is what General Jack D. Ripper had to say about communists if you replace the words "precious bodily fluids" with "cred" in that water fluoridation scene from dr. strangelove While this is true, seeing more randomisation and permadeath in other games is a good thing! Those aren't roguelike features but just good game features; somehow the term "good game" with that meaning hasn't caught on.
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Mar 6, 2014 08:46
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Hempuli posted:Well then! I played some of this and it's pretty drat cool! It controls well and really does give me vibes of being a more arcade-ey Spelunky.
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Mar 6, 2014 09:38
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Procedurally generated 3D terrain is incredibly hard to make interesting and varied. Traditional roguelikes have it easier because they're simple and abstract, and small changes make a big impact -- a one-tile wide hallway is a vastly different tactical challenge than a two-tile wide hallway, for example. In a 3D space that distinction is much blurrier and it's really easy for everything to end up feeling the same. Tower of Guns seems like it might be an early attempt at this, but from what I've seen of it I'm not sure it has enough randomization to really qualify as a PDL. Also, I kind of got a pretty samey feel from the videos I saw of it. I'll probably check it out eventually anyway, but has anyone else played it enough to say if it does anything interesting with randomization in a 3d environment?
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Mar 6, 2014 10:16
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Hempuli posted:Well then! Everybody who makes anything RL should be talking about it here, especially as we approach 7DRL which I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread is going to commit to wholeheartedly 1000%. CWOUN stands for Cave With Out Uh Name, right? It does for me. Nitpicky but the hardest thing for me to get around was the UI. Enter, space, z, x, c, I had to hit keys at random to get past the title screen. Then I saw the game was ASD driven and that made it a little easier. When I died, I just wanted to press enter or space repeatedly until I respawned. Do you have to enter a name to get past that part of the game over sequence? I couldn't select OK until I had at least one character in. Being able to swap items onto your back was neat. Was a bit of a bummer that the first thing I'd find was a locked chest, maybe that can start appearing in the blue section? The ghost really dampened my fun. I guess he's the food clock? He shows up really early and it means everything has to be a mad race, no staying in place or thinking too hard. I get that the Spelunky ghost does the same thing, but he's there to get you to finish the level, not forever haunt your rear end. The game is visually and aurally attractive, everything made sense. The bear traps looked dangerous, but the first time I landed on one nothing happened. I thought it was a bug, because surely that's supposed to be spikes, right? I walked back and forth to make sure and yep-- dead.  I did like this:  You're goddamn right I'm holding nothing back, I go ham all day every day. Fake Edit After Preview: What the gently caress you can kill the ghosts with your pickaxe? poo poo.
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Mar 6, 2014 13:41
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Thanks for the feedback!quote:The ghost really dampened my fun. I guess he's the food clock? Yeah, the ghosts are regular enemies here instead of the ultimate danger they are in Spelunky; they and the snails are ones that I'm going to be tweaking in the future, though, because apparently they are rather frustrating and don't really add much to the gameplay; there are a couple other enemy ideas I have in my mind so I guess I'll eventually experiment a bit with what works and what doesn't. (The bear traps bug when you fall on them too quickly, yeah, I'm looking to it!) quote:Nitpicky but the hardest thing for me to get around was the UI. Enter, space, z, x, c, I had to hit keys at random to get past the title screen. Then I saw the game was ASD driven and that made it a little easier. When I died, I just wanted to press enter or space repeatedly until I respawned. Do you have to enter a name to get past that part of the game over sequence? I couldn't select OK until I had at least one character in. UIs are my bane.  I like using ASD due to QWERTZ keyboards being a thing, but I agree that it takes too long atm to get back to playing assuming that the player isn't really interested in highscores. You can press 'R' to instantly restart after dying, though!
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Mar 6, 2014 14:02
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Tower of Guns seems like the sort that will perhaps really grow and fill things out depending on how it goes now that it is out in full on Steam, GoG, and so on---the whole bullet-hell'ish aspect should allow ample room for all sorts of crazy doings. Beyond it, Fancy Skulls goes a bit of a different direction and the dev has recently elected to try and kick things into a higher gear in terms of release pace and is shooting for roughly weekly updates knocking out a smattering of things: http://fancyskulls.com/
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Mar 6, 2014 14:52
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RE: Tower of Guns, I really have to warn people against it now that it is 10 (soon 15) dollars. It hasn't fixed any of the issues I had with it before - the most dangerous enemies are still the absurdly liberally placed static turrets shooting projectiles that bounce around, follow you, or leave area of effects that you will easily walk into since you can't see around you or hear audio cues. Bosses are still a matter of circlestrafing and holding the shooting key, without exception. The rechargable items are of nebulous value and you'll never see any real variation in playstyle for each new life given how rare items/mods are and the small variety in them. The Binding of Isaac name drop is just that - a name drop.
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Mar 6, 2014 17:41
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Potsticker posted:Permadeath and randomized locations would be killer for Dark Souls. Random locations for Dark Souls would be terrible. The locations in the game are all incredibly well thought-out and loop back around on themselves in intricate and organic ways. You'd be trading a huge amount of the intricacy and focus of the game if you turned it into a true roguelike.
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Mar 6, 2014 17:47
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Notorious QIG posted:Random locations for Dark Souls would be terrible. The locations in the game are all incredibly well thought-out and loop back around on themselves in intricate and organic ways. You'd be trading a huge amount of the intricacy and focus of the game if you turned it into a true roguelike. I wasn't trying to say it would make Dark Souls better. Dark Souls has an amazing environment and having the choice between what we have and a roguelike version I would keep the game just the way it was.
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Mar 6, 2014 17:52
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Oblivion had random dungeons, right? I don't know about Skyrim. Either of those with dark souls combat/mechanics would have made them 10x the game.
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Mar 6, 2014 17:54
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Jeffrey posted:Oblivion had random dungeons, right? I don't know about Skyrim. Either of those with dark souls combat/mechanics would have made them 10x the game. Neither game had randomized dungeons, although Oblivion certainly felt that way since only one guy designed them from a limited set of dungeon rooms. Skyrim did have some random sidequests and could dynamically assign unused dungeons to those quests, but the dungeons themselves were not randomized.
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Mar 6, 2014 17:56
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Ahh, okay, good to know. They sure felt that way. Daggerfall had randomized dungeons but they were terrible.
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Mar 6, 2014 17:57
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I'm pretty sure becoming turn-based would make Dark Souls completely unrecognizable, so it's probably just as well they don't turn it into a roguelike. 
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Mar 6, 2014 17:58
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I'm gonna make a 4d roguelike where you walk around on a 4 dimensional grid. Just wait until you see my vi keys.
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Mar 6, 2014 18:01
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CWOUN is pretty cool. Neat art. Maybe could do with juuuuust a little more explanation at the start. I expect ghosts to be unkillable, and I was dumb enough to not recognize the shop as anything other than background stuff my first few runs. Are there more shops when you get deeper into the caves? I really like the ability to crush dudes by digging over them.
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Mar 6, 2014 18:03
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Jeffrey posted:I'm gonna make a 4d roguelike where you walk around on a 4 dimensional grid. Just wait until you see my vi keys. a 3D roguelike that allows full movement (like 2d 8-directional, 9 keys with "wait") would need 27 keys so that's just the alphabet and one other key. Making it 4D goes to 81, so each of those keys has the shift and ctrl version. Still leaves you with the numbers, punctuation, and the ctrl-shift-letters for commands, no problem
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Mar 6, 2014 18:17
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Yeah I think I'm gonna need super and hyper keys, gotta buy one of these:
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Mar 6, 2014 18:21
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OtspIII posted:Tower of Guns seems like it might be an early attempt at this, but from what I've seen of it I'm not sure it has enough randomization to really qualify as a PDL. Also, I kind of got a pretty samey feel from the videos I saw of it. I'll probably check it out eventually anyway, but has anyone else played it enough to say if it does anything interesting with randomization in a 3d environment? Caveat: I played it for a couple days, over maybe 2-3 hours, and this was several months ago. I have not yet played the finished product. (My original post: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3563643&userid=112401#post421949422) I read somewhere on the author's site that the rooms themselves are hand-created, but there are a lot of them, hundreds apparently, perhaps many hundreds. I assume the guy is pretty creative in getting the most out of the pieces of architecture that he has designed, I'll give him that. The Unreal engine just isn't designed to create random 3D environments. Many of the enemies' spawns are random, however. I found there was a good amount of variety and unpredictability in my playthrough, and anyway there was enough lead filling the air that I wasn't much noticing any repetitiveness to criticize. It's a good FPS bullet hell shooter with arguably roguelike features. I got in on the IndieGameStand deal and got the game for a buck. I had fun, and the game is novel enough, but I would say that I couldn't sustain enough interest to play it for a solid hour to beat it, I would need to be able to save and play it in smaller chunks to better suit my personal playstyle. But I could see it being fun for that hour. I really respect what the author has done with the game, and it's a hell of an accomplishment for a team of one, plus one guy doing the soundtrack, but it's not worth $10, much less $15. That kind of money gets you a lot more game than is present here. If there were multiplayer co-op, where one key got you a spawn copy, that's more worth it. doctorfrog fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Mar 6, 2014 |
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Mar 6, 2014 18:22
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OtspIII posted:Yeah. I think my ultimate game is a procedural permadeath game with Dark Souls/Devil May Cry/whatever-style gameplay (granted, those two games hit almost opposite ends of the style-chart of that control scheme). I can totally understand why it hasn't happened yet, since it really does seem just ridiculously difficult, but I figure it's only a matter of time. Devil May Cry games have the Bloody Palace (at least, DMC3 does), which is just 10000 floors of open arenas with randomly-selected opponents whose health and damage output scale with the floor number. Then again, terrain doesn't usually play a huge role in DMC games except as an annoyance. What really matters is the mix of enemies you're fighting.
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Mar 6, 2014 18:24
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All this talk reminded me of a project I'm looking forward to, Illuminascii. It's still WIP, but pretty much the only FPS roguelike thingy I'd ever consider to play. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McVpPC6eGAg He's a member of the forums btw.
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Mar 6, 2014 18:27
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Jeffrey posted:Yeah I think I'm gonna need super and hyper keys, gotta buy one of these: Hyper Super Meta. What keyboard is that?
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Mar 6, 2014 19:05
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Beamed posted:Hyper Super Meta. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-cadet_keyboard It was on lisp machines. "Meta" is now alt.
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Mar 6, 2014 19:09
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"Super" became Win or Cmd.
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Mar 6, 2014 20:55
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Jeffrey posted:Yeah I think I'm gonna need super and hyper keys, gotta buy one of these: "Rub out"
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Mar 7, 2014 02:10
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Yeah well sun keyboards had "props" keys, presumably for giving other users props.
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Mar 7, 2014 02:21
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Anyone here trying out the private Sproggiwood beta? Feel free to give feedback here if you want! We'll probably do an open goon beta test after another round of feedback and content.
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Mar 7, 2014 02:48
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More CWOUN thoughts: I keep trying to jump on enemies to squash them, which is pretty clearly not working. I can understand wanting to separate yourself from Spelunky, but maybe adding in a key-prompted butt-stomp function would do some good? I wrestle with the controls too much to do any real precision work with the pickaxe. In that same vein, I'm dying for a ledge-cling. Throwing items should at least knock-back enemies a little bit, if not outright hurt them. Mostly, I want tighter controls and maybe a little more music, but as long as we're wishing, I'd like a pizza.  It's pretty fun, though! Good little time-waster, and the noise it makes when you pick up gold is like catnip.
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Mar 7, 2014 06:40
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Unormal posted:Anyone here trying out the private Sproggiwood beta? Feel free to give feedback here if you want! We'll probably do an open goon beta test after another round of feedback and content. Already responded via e-mail; the experience is definitely improved from the last round. I'm curious as to how it actually feels on an Android device, though.
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Mar 7, 2014 19:03
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Cephalocidal posted:Already responded via e-mail; the experience is definitely improved from the last round. I'm curious as to how it actually feels on an Android device, though. I send you a private link to the dropbox that has a current APK via e-mail, if you promise to give honest feedback! 
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Mar 7, 2014 20:02
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Unormal posted:I send you a private link to the dropbox that has a current APK via e-mail, if you promise to give honest feedback! I haven't been keeping up with Sproggi - what's the target ideal screensize for mobile devices? Is it going to be a 4-5" cell phone gem or is it basically going to require a 10" tablet?
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Mar 7, 2014 20:44
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Cuntpunch posted:I haven't been keeping up with Sproggi - what's the target ideal screensize for mobile devices? Is it going to be a 4-5" cell phone gem or is it basically going to require a 10" tablet? We built it from the ground-up to run on PCs, phones and tablets, and we've been testing on all those devices since the get-go. I'd say it's equally playable on all of them. I do most of my testing on PC, our main in-group tester (who also did almost all of the primary playtesting for CoQ) tests almost exclusively on android phone, and many of our other testers play on tablets. So... the goal is whatever you've got in your pocket or on your desk, time will tell how well we achieve those goals I think the device and platform market is only going to continue to get more and more fragmented over time, so I think being able to just work on whatever people happen to have in front of them, whenever possible, is going to be the route-to-market for almost any software for the foreseeable future.
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Mar 7, 2014 20:49
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I use the sproggi android build and I like it. Haven't tried the new one yet though.
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Mar 7, 2014 21:06
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Bogart posted:Earlier stuff & There's actually an item that lets you jump on enemies; I feared the ability might be a bit overpowered, I should probably try giving it to the player from the beginning. The item throwing thing is a great point; I wanted the player to be able to manipulate the items more freely than just dropping & using, but on the other hand there's really no use in being able to throw, say, the blue chest around. I guess having thrown items knock enemies back without damaging might be worth a try! When you say tighter controls, where do you feel they could be improved? Are they too slippery? Should the player stop in midair if arrow buttons are not pressed? I'm not happy with how imprecise the throwing aspect is so I'm going to tweak that in any case. I made the musics by myself and this is actually my first time composing! Hopefully the two tracks currently in the game are enjoyable enough. Thanks for the feedback.
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Mar 7, 2014 22:29
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Unormal posted:I send you a private link to the dropbox that has a current APK via e-mail, if you promise to give honest feedback! Still some beta niggles (tapping the screen during loading brings up the keyboard and field modification modal, text descriptions running off the side, etc.) but it definitely feels like it belongs on a tablet. That said, two or maybe three things immediately jumped out at me. First, the tutorial text bubbles were massive compared to the tiny "forward" arrow I had to tag to proceed. Being able to tap the entire bubble would be nice, and the arrows indicating on-screen actions (backing out after purchasing the first farm for instance) could be better contrasted with the rest of the screen to jump out at players. Second/third, the navigation wheel was too large for me to comfortably use while holding the tablet - even with my bigass hands I couldn't tap "left" with my thumb without stretching weirdly. Scaling based on device might be called for, or maybe pushing the wheel further into the corner. This was all on a Sony Xperia Tablet Z. Past that, again - it really did feel like it belonged on a tablet (or enormous phone) so I think you'll probably have a compelling game once you've dialed it in a little.
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Mar 8, 2014 08:07
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A mild suggestion for Crawl brings out the worst of the roguelike community: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11226
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Mar 8, 2014 11:14
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TOOT BOOT posted:A mild suggestion for Crawl brings out the worst of the roguelike community: Yeah that dude is really saving the day for women everywhere.  Probably should take it to the feminism thread though, I already posted it there.
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Mar 8, 2014 11:15
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Jeffrey posted:Yeah that dude is really saving the day for women everywhere. Did you actually read any of the discussion or did your knee jerk so hard it dislocated when gender was mentioned? By and large Crawl has always avoided having gendered monsters or even the PC, and 'Merfolk Mesmerizer' makes it a lot more obvious what the monster does at a glance than calling it a Mermaid. There are good arguments for the change but everyone lost their poo poo because gender was mentioned as you've just done.
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Mar 8, 2014 12:21
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I'm not engaging on this with you here. You can make assumptions about my views if you want, I posted in the actual thread and the feminism one if you're interested.
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Mar 8, 2014 12:25
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If they would go through with this suggestion you'd have the first tumblr approved roguelike.
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Mar 8, 2014 15:07
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That's a suggestion by someone who just can't switch their brain off. Pretty sure ye olde sailors were mesmerized mainly by mermaids, but who knows.
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Mar 8, 2014 17:03
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