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BigLeafyTree posted:Why not? It might take a bit longer because you can end up in situations where you're throwing a pass your allies can't catch and it's more difficult to get hilariously out of control the way a fed highly mobile snowball hero can, but good play is good play. People who don't know how to play support just assume that supports only exist to be carried by the rest of the team
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Mar 14, 2014 21:39
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Bhodi posted:They do, but at the same time you can edge ahead by defending 4v5 and having your carry farm. Defending 4v5 is the correct play, but when I find myself as the carry farming away while the typical mid blob staring contest goes on there's always that one guy. You know who I mean. It's like that scene in the movie where there's a standstill and someone on one side accidentally fumbles his gun and fires a shot and all hell breaks loose. That guy always happens. I try to TP in and recover but by that time my team is up on their hill fighting under the enemy tower. Yeah but where did you start at? I haven't been "trench tier" where all these players are complaining about MMR hell. 3500 to 4000 I can see support being more beneficial.
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Mar 14, 2014 21:41
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I think it'd be harder, but still doable. If you're supporting you can set up a lot of kills your carries won't take advantage of. You could manage to feed them those kills but they don't spend their money or time wisely afterwards. You're less able to just flat out take objectives on your own if they're not willing to cooperate (unless you're someone like shadow shaman). Honestly though, I think most people can tell fairly quickly when someone on their team is very good and if that person talks and pings and comes up with plans most people will fall in line. I've had it happen to me and I've done it with other people.
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Mar 14, 2014 21:42
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Red Red Blue posted:People who don't know how to play support just assume that supports only exist to be carried by the rest of the team People who don't understand the point, make weird assumptions about my ability to play supports. I will try to explain it out better. In order to gain MMR you have to have >50% win percentage. The lower your starting MMR the less impact correct support play makes on the game as a whole. There's an MMR point where support play does not have enough of an impact on the game to have >50% win percentage. I don't know where this "MMR hell" is. It could be at loving 50 MMR I have no idea. I am just saying that I could see how you could get stuck in this MMR as a support and not get stuck in it as a high impact mid. Chocolatebuddha fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Mar 14, 2014 |
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Mar 14, 2014 21:45
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There is nothing finer in dota than chasing people down the with napalm/ion shell combo in RAD. It's broken from level 2. A lot of combos are broken, but nothing so hard that you can basically wipe a team from level 2.
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Mar 14, 2014 21:45
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Chocolatebuddha posted:In order to gain MMR you have to have >50% win percentage. False and questionable. e: Upgrading questionable to mega-false. gangnam reference fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Mar 14, 2014 |
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Mar 14, 2014 21:52
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Asiina posted:Honestly though, I think most people can tell fairly quickly when someone on their team is very good and if that person talks and pings and comes up with plans most people will fall in line. Depends. I've played with exceptionally good players that ping like dickholes and draw all over the map so I intentionally ignore their calls, even when they're the correct call. When I'm pubbing with people I make sure to only ping once and accurately, and to draw on the map nicely with arrows. It almost always works. It's also nice to talk to teammates like a human being. Like if someone refuses to leave forest and push with you, you can say something like, "Hey Luna you got some sick rear end farm, come crush this tower with us" instead of, "GET THE gently caress OVER HERE LUNA YOU poo poo KID *ping**ping**ping**ping*".
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Mar 14, 2014 21:54
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gangnam reference posted:False and questionable. Which is why I stated what I believed and would like to see the experiment I posted but with support.
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Mar 14, 2014 21:55
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Chocolatebuddha posted:Which is why I stated what I believed and would like to see the experiment I posted but with support. You're right, i misunderstood : )
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Mar 14, 2014 21:57
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Chocolatebuddha posted:People who don't understand the point, make weird assumptions about my ability to play supports. I think this assumes that support play exists only as something that gives your non-support allies chances to follow up on, and if they drop the ball and don't follow up on those chances your effort was null. Supports can do important impactful things without requiring the carries/cores/whatever to stop picking their nose. Ganks, zoning heroes out of the offlane, teamfighting, controlling runes, stacking, pulls, etc. all matter and give your team better chances to win the game. Support only becomes a dice roll on ally competency if you're playing a self-starved sacrificial hard support style intended to trade your progression for an ally's, and even that is a dice roll in your favor because even morons tend to win more games if you're spoon feeding them advantages.
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Mar 14, 2014 22:05
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Philosopher King posted:There is nothing finer in dota than chasing people down the with napalm/ion shell combo in RAD. It's broken from level 2. Napalm / Shackle is my favorite. Ion Shell usually gets picked ASAP if you pick Napalm cause people know what will happen, plus they can run from you. 2 stacks of level 1 Napalm and level 1 Shackle will kill almost any hero from 100% hp without them being able to do anything, and from then on you get a kill every time shackle comes off cooldown unless they can keep you stunned.
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Mar 14, 2014 22:06
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Chocolatebuddha posted:Well yeah you can be instrumental in a win as a support sometimes but you do not nearly as much ability to make the impact that the other roles can make.
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Mar 14, 2014 22:06
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Chocolatebuddha posted:I don't know where this "MMR hell" is. It could be at loving 50 MMR I have no idea. I am just saying that I could see how you could get stuck in this MMR as a support and not get stuck in it as a high impact mid. "MMR Hell" is not a location, it's a definition. MMR is hell, MMR never changes.
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Mar 14, 2014 22:09
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There is a rather large difference in a guy who mainly plays support at one mmr over the next. I play with people between 2500 and 5k mmr and the difference in like, say 3000 and 3500 (most of the players here) is pretty big, nevermind like 3k and 5k. If you guys ever want to see some elite support just queue or watch fellow goon minrad.
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Mar 14, 2014 22:09
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I would much rather support a bad carry, than play a carry with a bad support.
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Mar 14, 2014 22:09
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Srice posted:I would much rather support a bad carry, than play a carry with a bad support. The reason I play support almost all of the time is because it means we definitely get a courier, upgraded very close to 3:00, and wards bought and placed, plus dust and all that. Every time I see some terrible ES get a bunch of stuff at the start of the game without even getting a courier (no wards I understand, if hate), I know I'm going to have a bad time.
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Mar 14, 2014 22:11
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I spent a lot of time asking around and looking for 5k+ mmr mainly-support players and all I came up with were: 1) earth spirits 2) zenigata http://dotabuff.com/players/86740536 (aka this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKIB_d2h0ZY ) 3) this peruvian dude 'joel' http://dotabuff.com/players/118948478 4) ppd is kind of an honorable mention because he mostly randoms and keeps hard supports But if anyone else has found other high mmr supports I'd like to know so I can watch their replays.
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Mar 14, 2014 22:11
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Srice posted:I would much rather support a bad carry, than play a carry with a bad support. Not me but it's all perspective. The difference is you can at least hope to get back in a game gone wrong with a carry. If the game goes wrong early and you're a support you're more or less screwed if your carry sucks. That, and you can't force people to farm. Some (most) people carry can_not_last_hit. Seeing a carry get 150 cs in a 40 minute game is soul crushing, but I guess seeing a support fail to zone out / smoke gank when appropriate / just be an exp vacuum is probably similar.
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Mar 14, 2014 22:13
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Chocolatebuddha posted:People who don't understand the point, make weird assumptions about my ability to play supports. I understood what you said perfectly, I just feel that if you ever come out of a game feeling that you didn't have an impact, you weren't playing "correctly"
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Mar 14, 2014 22:13
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sesh posted:I spent a lot of time asking around and looking for 5k+ mmr mainly-support players and all I came up with were: ixmike is around 5k and Minrad is around 5k, both basically play exclusive supports.
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Mar 14, 2014 22:14
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King of Spit posted:Not me but it's all perspective. The difference is you can at least hope to get back in a game gone wrong with a carry. If the game goes wrong early and you're a support you're more or less screwed if your carry sucks. That, and you can't force people to farm. Some (most) people carry can_not_last_hit. Seeing a carry get 150 cs in a 40 minute game is soul crushing, but I guess seeing a support fail to zone out / smoke gank when appropriate / just be an exp vacuum is probably similar. My rationale is, I can forcefeed the carry (and mid) kills and space as a support, but if a support does not know how to help me out as a carry I am up poo poo creek without a paddle.
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Mar 14, 2014 22:14
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jBrereton posted:Chances are your carries are likely to be almost exactly as good as your opponents, so if you play support well, you win. I don't think that exactly follows. That ignores character choice. Team comp etc. The reason people play high impact mids is because they are heroes that have the ability to cut through all of that typical bullshit and just wreck face. Hell I did it with an alt account I was trying to level to 13 to play ranked. I turned on music muted the game, picked lycan every time and never lost a game. There is no way I would have been able to do that with a support.
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Mar 14, 2014 22:17
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King of Spit posted:ixmike is around 5k and Minrad is around 5k, both basically play exclusive supports. check ixmike's dotabuff, you'll find he doesn't play very much support at all in mm. as for minrad does he play solo or in a stack?
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Mar 14, 2014 22:24
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Also, smdh if you play support and don't take a smoke with you from the start. Unless you're like, Io or something. That poo poo can snowball your early game momentum! For the people that don't buy it, consider this: It breaks at a distance of 1025. Most stuns and such have a range of 500-700ish. You know what this means? It means whoever you're ganking will usually have around 1-1.5 seconds to react to you (and that's not counting their turn time if they're focusing on last hits!). Unless they're playing something like Mirana that can quickly get away, a mid that's standing in the river can be an easy kill, especially if you bring your other support with you. Smoke owns and isn't just for competitive play or group ganks. Use it and love it!
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Mar 14, 2014 22:29
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I asked Pizza Hut to draw the best Dota hero on my pizza box. It's not Ogre Magi but it'll do.
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Mar 14, 2014 22:31
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Dear Gaben, A friend of mine has a hero he plays a lot of, and I just picked them up recently and its made me realize he is totally lovely at that hero. We lose every time he plays them dispite assuring me it's his best hero. I don't want to hurt his feelings, he's a competent guy but is attached to a completely lovely build and playstyle. How do I tell him his hero is great but he just sucks and needs to not play them, or needs to change his playstyle without hurting his dotapride? Signed Fed up with feeding
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Mar 14, 2014 22:31
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Philosopher King posted:Dear Gaben, That is quite vague but a good place to start might be looking up tournament games with that hero? Unless it's someone that's not in Captain's Mode or is never used, that is. Of course it's not always wise to copy pro builds to the letter since a lot of unique builds happen due to circumstances but heck, if it's that bad then it would surely be an improvement at least.
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Mar 14, 2014 22:35
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Getting disconnected from the server today and it's probably affecting my alleged trustworthiness 
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Mar 14, 2014 22:35
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AXE COP posted:Also titles own and are way more memorable and cool than names. League comes off as dumb and flat when you're a giant sea monster man and you're just called Dave. Nautilus is a kickass name, I dunno what you're talking about :/ Also I hope Free To Play finds a way to sneak an SFM of Skeleton King in there. I know he didn't get played, but come on. I need one last glance at the Boner King.
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Mar 14, 2014 22:36
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LordHippoman posted:Nautilus is a kickass name, I dunno what you're talking about
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Mar 14, 2014 22:42
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sesh posted:I spent a lot of time asking around and looking for 5k+ mmr mainly-support players and all I came up with were: Aui_2000 randoms every game and plays tryhard. If he gets a hard support he'll play it like a hard support.
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Mar 14, 2014 22:44
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NoTail plays supports pretty frequently and is sick nasty with rhasta. The plays are good, he uses his skills and whatever, but when he gets to the point where he's micro'ing an eye on the courier to swap out an item to deward locations where you'd think the enemy would never ward, it starts to get unreal.
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Mar 14, 2014 22:48
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Philosopher King posted:Dear Gaben, Tell him he sucks at the hero and link him to a guide that explains why. Nobody should get offended about being told they are playing a hero wrong, provided you actually explain why.
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Mar 14, 2014 22:49
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Do goon games still happen in lljk? Or have people moved on to something new?
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Mar 14, 2014 22:49
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Philosopher King posted:Dear Gaben, The only reasonable thing to do is sabotage him and then report him for intentional feeding.
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Mar 14, 2014 23:01
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Philosopher King posted:Dear Gaben, Sever.
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Mar 14, 2014 23:03
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Chocolatebuddha posted:In order to gain MMR you have to have >50% win percentage. If this were true, we would expect high impact mids to have pretty good win rates in pubs. And yet what do we find? Shadow Fiend -- 48.55% Pudge -- 48.02% Dragon Knight -- 47.79% Invoker -- 47.02% Templar Assassin -- 45.13% Magnus -- 44.99% Storm Spirit -- 44.97% Outworld Devourer -- 44.60% Puck -- 44.45% Queen of Pain -- 42.91% Tinker -- 42.89% (The "common" mids that actually have strong win rates are Zeus, Death Prophet, Necrolyte, and  Bloodseeker , but they somehow never get mentioned in these high impact mid discussions)If you're a 6k player on a 3k account, then yes, Storm Spirit mid is likely a pretty efficient way to gain ranking because he both has pretty good item scaling and early game impact and comes in a relatively safe laning package in an environment where you massively outskill the other mid and will never actually see a mid gank. If you're a player on a 3k account who thinks they're a 6k player with no actual proof, then you're not going to have those returns. You'll also probably end up arguing with the insta-lock Invoker who thinks they're the 6k player that deserves mid, at which point you've practically lost the game before it's even begun. So if you're a mediocre player at a mediocre rating playing against other mediocre players, and for some reason you want to game your MMR so you can pretend you're less mediocre than all those other people dragging you down, you're much better off picking flexible heroes that are strong in the current patch. If you think you might need to mid you can take a hero like Viper, Death Prophet, Warlock, or Shadow Shaman so that when 5th pick slams down Pudge 5 seconds before creeps spawn you're perfectly fine in a sidelane. If you're seeing a lot of lane dependent carries on your team you can take Lich to ensure you win one lane, or Abaddon if you want to support with a platform to have some (limited) carry potential, or Centaur if you think you can bully some fragile ranged heroes in trades, or a Static Link "support" Razor to make some melee heroes miserable while then being able to transition to a tower demolishing semi-carry if your lane partner's last hitting is completely incompetent. Or you can just Lycan and do whatever because it's Lycan. And hey, if you want to pick up Queen of Pain or Puck or Tinker or Lone Druid in pub play just because you want to expand your hero pool and mechanics then absolutely go for it. Just don't pretend they're the fast train to 6k because they empirically are not.
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Mar 14, 2014 23:07
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 http://fwosh.tumblr.com/post/79585090465/
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Mar 14, 2014 23:13
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Internet Kraken posted:Tell him he sucks at the hero and link him to a guide that explains why. Nobody should get offended about being told they are playing a hero wrong, provided you actually explain why. "But it's been working just fine so far!" I've had to deal with this kind of friend before and it can be a real pain. It took another friend of ours pointing out how his winrate dropped 10% after the bad friend joined us to convince him that hey, maybe it's not working fine.
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Mar 14, 2014 23:29
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Today I randomed sniper  
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Mar 15, 2014 00:25
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