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I reread the part in Taravangian's chapter where he's talking to Szeth. It's mentioned that the Shin only have 8 of the honour blades, well now 7 since Kaladin claimed Szeth's. That leaves one unaccounted for. Also, the 17th shard says Zahel is actually Vasher, did I miss something?
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Mar 23, 2014 18:30
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:I reread the part in Taravangian's chapter where he's talking to Szeth. It's mentioned that the Shin only have 8 of the honour blades, well now 7 since Kaladin claimed Szeth's. That leaves one unaccounted for. Also, the 17th shard says Zahel is actually Vasher, did I miss something? Yes you missed that he's Vasher. But less jokingly, there are a ton of clues in the guys dialogue, fighting style, and philosophy.
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Mar 23, 2014 18:51
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Law Cheetah posted:Question about the parshmen (possible plot hole): Since parshmen don't have mate form, how do they reproduce? Parshmen are unawakened parshendi, right? They're stated to be similar to Parshendi dull form, anyway.
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Mar 23, 2014 19:33
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Cicero posted:It's never said that Parshendi outright can't reproduce when not in mateform. It's just that being in mateform makes it hard to focus on anything else. Just like it's not physically impossible to fight when not in warform, or to work when not in workform. Also they mention the Parshendi used to have only dullform and mateform before discovering the others more recently. I'm interested in seeing more of Restares, with both Amaram writing to him at the end of WoR and being named by Gavilar as possibly the man behind Szeth's assassination attempt in the beginning of WoK.
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Mar 23, 2014 19:55
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The Puppy Bowl posted:Just finished Elantris and it was certainly his first book. A lot of things just sort of happened and I don't know that Raoden's solving the puzzle of the shoad was ever really earned so much as it had to happen for plot progression. Overall I enjoyed, as I do all of Sanderson's work, but it definitely left something to be desired. Not to mention it was a difficult to get through the early parts of the book just based on all the nothing that was happening. What I don't quite get is that Odium shattered Devotion (the shard responsible for Elantris and the AonDor) ~10 years before the events of Elantris, which caused the Reod and the chasm opening up. How is it that Raoden solving the puzzle brings the AonDor back to full strength? Or was the Reod just a side effect of Odium killing the shardholder/shattering the shard and the magic never really was weakened?
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Mar 23, 2014 21:22
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I think opening the chasm caused the Reod so maybe that was just a byproduct of Odium slaying the shardholder. Their fierce battle destroys the land or something. Then the Elantrian magic could have been made by that shard but not directly linked to it. Sort of like god creates the law of gravity but then god dies. The law of gravity doesn't change because it has it's own principles that govern it's behavior. The creator is gone but the system for manipulating the spiritual realm remains. Just a guess.
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Mar 23, 2014 21:34
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Odium smashes up the local shard way before the events of Elantris. The earthquake was unrelated.
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Mar 23, 2014 21:36
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mossyfisk posted:Odium smashes up the local shard way before the events of Elantris. The earthquake was unrelated. Oh okay, I just assumed. I guess that also explains why the shardbearers don't play any part at all in the local mythology.
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Mar 23, 2014 21:49
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If a shard dies though, I think that the power goes somewhere(?) Like, it doesn't just dissapear, it has to be absorbed into someone. That is why I thought Odium was going around trying to kill the other shards. Because he wants all of the power for himself to become the next Adolnosium. I kind of think that is what Hoid is trying to do on a smaller scale as well. Taking a small part of each shards power so that he can combine them all in some super cool way. Regarding Roshar theorytalk I think that when Odium came to Roshar, Honour shattered himself in some way to stop Odium taking his power. His largest shard became the stormfather, with lots of tiny shards becoming the Spren (thats why Syl is always saying she is a God, because all of the Spren are connected and are part of honour), and the Heralds held his other shards which are in the form of honourblades. In order to take the power Odium also shattered himself to create the voidspren and awaken lots of bad stuff on Roshar, except the shards of honour beat him and caused him to become stuck on Roshar so he has to go back and prepare himself for the next attempt (the desolations). Also, I think that Adolin will take up Szeths honourblade and become a Windrunner I am rereading through both books now, and there are so many things that you can pick up on when you know more about what is happening in the wider world.
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Mar 23, 2014 23:01
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Well, odium hates things, and he *likes* hating things, so he doesn't want to contaminate his pure hateful bodily fluids with some other Intent. So basically he's breaking all the other shards into tiny little pieces, so they're powerless in comparison, and then he can do whatever he wants.
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Mar 23, 2014 23:04
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Dravs posted:If a shard dies though, I think that the power goes somewhere(?) Like, it doesn't just dissapear, it has to be absorbed into someone. I assume that's how Elantrians work. The shard tries to choose a new holder but it doesn't work because it's broken, so they just end up with a little bit of it.
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Mar 23, 2014 23:46
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Yeah Odium isn't just killing shardholders, he is smashing the very shards themselves into little bitty pieces, preventing them from ever being claimed in that fashion again.
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Mar 23, 2014 23:46
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NecroMonster posted:Yeah Odium isn't just killing shardholders, he is smashing the very shards themselves into little bitty pieces, preventing them from ever being claimed in that fashion again. Until Hoid finds the shardholder 'Mending' and goes around fixing them all up again.
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Mar 24, 2014 00:06
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Apparently a splintered shard isn't completely irreversibly gone - I saw on a Q/A somewhere when someone was asking Sanderson about (mistborn spoilers) the specifics of Mistborn Savants that a Lerasium Savant - if you somehow got enough Lerasium, is the same thing as taking Preservation's shard from him. So if you could, for example, collect all the Breath in the world in warbreaker, it might be that you become the new Endowment, for example. (Or you might end up taking it from the existing one if he's still around?) I'm guessing Breath is a finite resource that Endowment gives a bit of himself to each person born, and then recieves back when whoever has that Breath dies, so if you kept on collecting more and more breath, and more and more people keep on getting born without you dying and returning the Breath back to the source, eventually you'd probably become an actual god.
Wolpertinger fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Mar 24, 2014 |
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Mar 24, 2014 04:11
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I unironically love Cosmere chat. Rereading WoK and in the letters at the start Hoid is saying how much of a mess Rayse (who is Odium?) made of Sel. Is that the Elantris world? How he has the most destructive and dangerous shard. How Ati (who was Ruin?) was good at the start before the Ruin shard made him bad, however Rayse was always bad. NecroMonster posted:Yeah Odium isn't just killing shardholders, he is smashing the very shards themselves into little bitty pieces, preventing them from ever being claimed in that fashion again. That makes more sense. I still think that Honour shattered himself, however I think he did it to protect or hide Cultivation maybe. That seems like a very Honour thing to do. Then Odium shattered himself for the desolations to try and find Cultivation. that is why Cultivation left the Parshendi, leaving a space for Odium to become their new God and transform them into the Voidbringers. Also, rereading WoK and one of Dalinars visions has him fighting these inky oil monsters filled with Smoke. When the radients come they say that they are not Voidbringers, they are Midknight Essence, however they do not know who released them. Has their been any theories on what the gently caress they are? Edit: drat, I just thought of another bit. In that same vision, Dalinar says the helmets on the Radiants plate just seem to appear and dissapear at will. this makes me think that the Radiants can either summon the plate like they can their soulblades, or they have some kind of control over it. Maybe it will be the last power up before Kaladin becomes a full Knight Radiant? Maybe he has another oath to say? Edit2: Hmm, is it possible that the lake that Rock refers to is Cultivations shardpool? We have seen shardpools in Elantris (the one they submerge Elantrians into if the pain becomes too much) and the Well of Ascension on Scadrial was preservations shardpool. This could be Cultivations shardpool that holds most of Cultivations power. Maybe she put her consciousness in it (as Preservation did) and what is left become the Nightmother? Also, does the fact that Sazed holds 2 shards powers mean that he is now more powerful than the other shards? Ugh, so many questions. Dravs fucked around with this message at 10:14 on Mar 24, 2014 |
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Mar 24, 2014 09:38
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Dravs posted:Edit2: Hmm, is it possible that the lake that Rock refers to is Cultivations shardpool? We have seen shardpools in Elantris (the one they submerge Elantrians into if the pain becomes too much) and the Well of Ascension on Scadrial was preservations shardpool. This could be Cultivations shardpool that holds most of Cultivations power. Maybe she put her consciousness in it (as Preservation did) and what is left become the Nightmother? If its the purelake you're talking about, that has apparently got genuine magical fish in it, so I really wouldn't be surprised. It is also MASSIVE.
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Mar 24, 2014 11:20
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Dravs posted:I unironically love Cosmere chat. Yes, Sazed is currently considered the most powerful Shardholder. I think Brandon said that even Odium was kind of afraid of that fight at one point? Midnight Essences, according to Coppermind, are one of the precursors to a Desolation. A theory I read suggested that they come from Braize, the planet Odium is on in the Roshar solar system. The theory suggested a Desolation was when some type of way was made from Braize to Roshar, and things from there came to Roshar. No idea if that's actually the case or not. Yeah, Rayse is Odium.
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Mar 24, 2014 11:38
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Lobsterpillar posted:If its the purelake you're talking about, that has apparently got genuine magical fish in it, so I really wouldn't be surprised. It is also MASSIVE.  I didn't even think about the purelake. No, I meant the pool on top of the mountain that Rock talks about where he is from. How it would kill any non horneater who goes into it that gives him the power to see Spren? Where he met Hoid. Now I am thinking about the Purelake. What is up with that place?! Maybe that is another shardpool?Edit: Ok, quotes from book 2 because this is really interesting to me, don't read if you haven't read WoR! "The top of each mountain forms a kind of crater," Sigzil explained, "which is filled with a large lake of warm water. The heat is enough to create a pocket of livable land, despite the altitude. Walk too far from one of the Horneater towns, though, and you'll end up in freezing temperatures and ice fields left by the highstorms." _________________________________________________________________________________________ "Is not just water," Rock said. "Is water of life. It is connection to gods. If Unkalaki swim in it, sometimes they see place of gods." _________________________________________________________________________________________ "Place of the gods?" "Is where they live. The waters of life, they let you see place. In it, you commune with gods, if you are lucky." _________________________________________________________________________________________ "You can see the spren," Kaladin pressed, "because of what happened to you in these waters." "Is not part of the story," Rock said, eyeing him. "It is... involved. I will say no more of this thing." "I'd like to visit," Lopen said. "Go for a dip myself." "Ha! Is death to one not of our people," Rock said. "I could not let you swim." _______________________________________________________________________________________ "Swimming in the emerald pools is death to outsiders," Sigzil said, "because you execute outsiders who touch them." "No, this is not true. Listen to story. Stop being boring." "They're just hot springs," Sigzil grumbled, but returned to his drink. Rock rolled his eyes. "On top, is water. Beneath, is not. Is something else. Water of life. The place of the gods. This thing is true. I have met a god myself." "A god like Syl?" Kaladin asked. "Or maybe a riverspren?" Those were somewhat rare, but supposedly able to speak at times in simple ways, like windspren. "No," Rock said. He leaned in, as if saying something conspiratorial. "I saw Lunu'anaki." "Uh great," Moash said. "Wonderful." "Lunu'anaki," Rock said, "is god of travel and mischief. Very powerful god. He came from depths of peak ocean, from realm of gods." "What did he look like?" Lopen asked, eyes wide. "Like person," Rock said. "Maybe Alethi, though skin was lighter. Very angular face. Handsome, perhaps. With white hair." Sigzil looked up sharply. "White hair?" "Yes," Rock said. "Not grey, like old man, but white- yes he is young man. He spoke with me on shore. Ha! Made mockery of my beard. Asked what year it was, by Horneater calendar. Thought my name was funny. Very powerful god. So I think that the shardpools are not only where shards hold large portions of their power, they are also portals to the other realms. Jasnah spoke of different types of realms (dimensions?) such as the physical realm, cognitive realm and spiritual. Physical is what we can see and touch, the human realm, and cognitive is what we think and our thoughts, which is Shadesmar where the Spren live, while Spirital is where the shardholders themselves live. So the people in the 17th shard (and Hoid I guess) have figured out that you can use the cognitive realm to travel through the shardpools to get to the other planets in the Cosmere, and they can also be used to communicate with the shardholders themselves as the shardpools have a connection to the spiritual realm. This could possibly make the Purelake into a massive, massive portal between the realms. What is the bet that in the next book this is the method by which all of Odiums nasties get to Roshar?! (Probably not much because this is just the insane theorycrafting of my mind) Edit2: drat, I just realized that could be the reason that the 17th shard guys where meeting in the Purelake in the 1st book interlude! That's just the place they popped out! They were all from different worlds so they just met in the place they arrived! Edit3: Ahhhh, it is making more sense. In Shadesmar, water becomes land, which is why all of the shardpools are in water, because in Shadesmar they are little islands that you use to "world hop". Also, interesting that I read somewhere there are 10 horneater peaks, with 10 of these magical pools. Maybe Roshar is a nexus of the Cosmere, with the Horneater peaks being like a train terminal where people change lines? Edit3 part 2: Or maybe Urithiru is where the highstorms originate from?! drat, that could make sense, didn't they say that not only were the windows in Urithiru fairly clean, they were also in the wrong direction? And the shape of the tower was the wrong way to face a highstorm?! Maybe because that is where they originate from so you can watch the highstorm leave?! Also this is closest to the Stormfather I guess, so it is the place closest to Honour, if Honour is the highstorms. Dravs fucked around with this message at 12:22 on Mar 24, 2014 |
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Mar 24, 2014 11:45
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They were in the Purelake in WoK because that's the false-trail Hoid left them, I think.
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Mar 24, 2014 12:13
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SerSpook posted:They were in the Purelake in WoK because that's the false-trail Hoid left them, I think. Ah, something else to think on then regarding the Purelake. When Shallan soulcasts the ship and briefly goes to Shadesmar, she falls onto Obsidian which I guess is what makes up the ground in Shadesmar. In one of Dalinars visions he sees an Obsidian tower in the Purelake and he mentions that nothing like that exists now. Did this tower come from Shadesmar? How did it get there, where has it gone?
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Mar 24, 2014 12:45
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Dravs posted:Cosmere stuff I'm pretty sure the magical lakes are shardpools. Shards have solid, liquid, and gaseous forms which are their bodies, minds, and souls respectively. We've seen magical pools in previous Sanderson books like the pool in Elantris where Elantrians go to die and the Well of Ascension in Mistborn.
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Mar 24, 2014 13:05
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The fact that the Purelake retreats before a Highstorm is pretty suggestive.
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Mar 24, 2014 14:14
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Well if the Highstorm is to Honour, what the mists were the Preservation, then possibly the Purelake belongs to another Shardholder? We know from Mistborn that if 2 shardholders come into contact it causes them immense pain.
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Mar 24, 2014 15:09
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The one problem I have with worldhopping via shardpools is that Hoid spent almost two books searching for the Well of Ascension. If he'd just popped out next to it, that woulda been kinda pointless.
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Mar 24, 2014 16:08
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Well maybe they do not all connect to each other. Like possibly in Shadesmar he knew where he had to be to get to a portal on Scadrial. (Maybe there is another Shardpool on Scadrial?) Possibly he can't just cross between pathways in Shadesmar for some reason. Maybe he needed the Well of Ascension to get to somewhere else in Shadesmar that gave him access to a different location somewhere else? Edit: Or possibly the other side of that portal was locked somehow, preventing access from Shadesmar? Like the other Oathgates are somehow locked on Roshar? That would have likely been within TLR power while he held preservation. Dravs fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Mar 24, 2014 |
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Mar 24, 2014 16:12
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That still kinda begs the question of how Hoid got there in the first place.
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Mar 24, 2014 16:32
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Isn't Hoid supposed to have his own book at some point (or one that involves the original world)? I think "Dragonsteel" deals with the worldhoppers and whoever Hoid is corresponding with.
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Mar 24, 2014 17:24
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When you put the chapter preamble letter from Hoid in WoK next to the preamble letter from WoR it's apparent that he is corresponding with a shardholder. Cultivation seems to make the most sense.
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Mar 24, 2014 18:02
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My understanding is that Hoid apparently had his own, now non-cannon unpublished book, and was the first novel Sanderson ever wrote. This unpublished book is going to become or be incorporated into Dragonsteel later on, which is going to be the ultimate* meta-work that actually will rely on knowledge of the entire cosmere, unlike all his other books which will only hint at it. *I mean ultimate literally, as in "last", not as in "awesome". Although it might well be awesome too.
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Mar 24, 2014 18:31
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I dunno, it's only book two of Stormlight and he's already incorporated major characters from other novels into the cast. Even giving one a PoV chapter, even if it is short. These books aren't very accessible to the uninitiated.
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Mar 24, 2014 19:29
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The Puppy Bowl posted:I dunno, it's only book two of Stormlight and he's already incorporated major characters from other novels into the cast. Even giving one a PoV chapter, even if it is short. These books aren't very accessible to the uninitiated. They're interludes that so far are only tangentally related to the main plot. Hoid works fine just as a 'mysterious manipulator' to get you interested in the rest of the cosmere.
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Mar 24, 2014 20:39
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The Puppy Bowl posted:I dunno, it's only book two of Stormlight and he's already incorporated major characters from other novels into the cast. Even giving one a PoV chapter, even if it is short. These books aren't very accessible to the uninitiated. These were my first Cosmere books and they were perfectly accessible, the additional elements are more easter eggs at this point. I've since read the Mistborn trilogy, Elantris, and Warbreaker, and it's kind of neat to see them.
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Mar 24, 2014 20:45
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I'm just saying that in WoR it looks as though he is positioning Vasher and Nightblood for significant roles. If their histories aren't going to come up than why are they there at all?
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Mar 24, 2014 20:52
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The Puppy Bowl posted:I dunno, it's only book two of Stormlight and he's already incorporated major characters from other novels into the cast. Even giving one a PoV chapter, even if it is short. These books aren't very accessible to the uninitiated. Why? What is there in the books that you wouldn't understand without knowledge of the whole cosmere thing? You get some neat references if you DO know about it, but they don't impact the actual story of The Stormlight Archive all that much. Iunnrais posted:My understanding is that Hoid apparently had his own, now non-cannon unpublished book, and was the first novel Sanderson ever wrote. This unpublished book is going to become or be incorporated into Dragonsteel later on, which is going to be the ultimate* meta-work that actually will rely on knowledge of the entire cosmere, unlike all his other books which will only hint at it. There was a question about Dragonsteel and how it relates to the cosmere stuff at the book signing I went too, and he said it's not going to be the series that ties it all together. I think he said it's pre-shattering, but I am not sure exactly which shattering he was referring too. (Presumably Honor shattering, but it would almost have to be) subx fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Mar 24, 2014 |
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Mar 24, 2014 20:54
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The Puppy Bowl posted:I dunno, it's only book two of Stormlight and he's already incorporated major characters from other novels into the cast. Even giving one a PoV chapter, even if it is short. These books aren't very accessible to the uninitiated. Not knowing much cosmere stuff other than that it's a thing, although there are a lot of references to it I didn't get, I just took it as people talking about mysterious stuff I'm not supposed to know yet. That stuff might jump out at someone who knows what it's referring to but to me it was just more background stuff to make the world seem bigger.
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Mar 24, 2014 21:03
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Dravs posted:Well if the Highstorm is to Honour, what the mists were the Preservation, then possibly the Purelake belongs to another Shardholder? We know from Mistborn that if 2 shardholders come into contact it causes them immense pain. Is that true of all shardholders, though? Or just Ruin/Preservation which are opposed? Would something completely different like Devotion react the same way to Preservation?
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Mar 24, 2014 21:05
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subx posted:There was a question about Dragonsteel and how it relates to the cosmere stuff at the book signing I went too, and he said it's not going to be the series that ties it all together. I think he said it's pre-shattering, but I am not sure exactly which shattering he was referring too. (Presumably Honor shattering, but it would almost have to be) Could be pre-shattering of Adonalsium, the original god that all Shards are... shards of.
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Mar 24, 2014 21:09
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edit: ^^  subx posted:Why? What is there in the books that you wouldn't understand without knowledge of the whole cosmere thing? You get some neat references if you DO know about it, but they don't impact the actual story of The Stormlight Archive all that much. Dragonsteel takes place on the planet where Adonalsium (the actual God that encompassed all 16-shards) was shattered. Chronologically it's the first series by a wide wide margin and predates Honor's splintering by millenia.
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Mar 24, 2014 21:10
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The Puppy Bowl posted:I'm just saying that in WoR it looks as though he is positioning Vasher and Nightblood for significant roles. If their histories aren't going to come up than why are they there at all? Fun fact: those characters were in Way of Kings before they showed up elsewhere.
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Mar 24, 2014 21:34
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Tunicate posted:Fun fact: those characters were in Way of Kings before they showed up elsewhere. How so? Chronologically i thought Warbreaker was before WoK. Warning Huge rear end Spoilery Theorycrafting ahead (bored at work) Okay here's my theory regarding Spren and the Cosmere and Warbreaker and specifically Nightblood and Vasher spoilered for some general cosmere-y stuff from WoR and end of story details. So we know that humans born on different worlds have different natural connections to the world and its magic. Mistings/Feruchemists on Scadrial existed before the first mistborn, and every person on Nalthis is born with BioChromatic breath. I would argue that on Sel some have the ability to access the Dor without being imbued with a splinter via arts like ChayShan and Soul Stamps. So what about Roshar and how do the spren fit into this? It's my hypothesis that "spren" (i.e. cosmic forces) exist on all Cosmere worlds, but the humans of Roshar have a latent connection to the Cognitive realm which 1) allows them to directly influence the growth and "evolution" of spren, and 2) allows the spren to bond them. Syl states (and the experiments of the ardent scholar 'couple' show in WoK) that spren are reflections of human conceptions. Measure them and they become fixed, experience some mental or physical state and they appear. Spren are the personification of natural and cosmic forces (fire, wind, honor, lies, glory, pain, gravity, etc) and I would argue exist in proportion to the rate at which humans perceive the forces to which they relate. For instance we can compare and contrast Fire Spren with the Stormfather and Death Spren. Fire is super common, as a result fire spren are among some of the most common since no person can go through life without encountering fire on a daily basis. Add billions of *observations* and of the *concept* of fire over millennia and the fire spren spread. However "fire" as most humans conceive of it is not *individual* or special. There's nothing connecting one campfire to a stove or a bonfire. It's simply a force that is somewhat wild, and needs to be controlled. Fire spren seem to have a similar 'personality' quick and spastic, but not "special" or intelligent (or particularly complex). The Stormfather on the other hand is the personification of the Almighty. The entirety (or a large percentage) of the Rosharran population views highstorms as "The Stormfather" who is (in some beliefs) also closely associated with the Almighty himself. Throw in a few more million or billion humans all *perceiving* the storms as "one thought or idea" and it begins to take on that personification, that identity. Much like Schrodingers Cat, the observation of the event(s) creates the reality. Toss perhaps a splinter of Honor's shard and that explains the even greater amount of individuality the Stormfather seems to express over even spren like Syl. Death Spren are rarely *ever* observed by humans (since in most cases the trigger is usually...uh..fatal) and as such are more rumor than fact. Only those like Kaladin, on the edge of death but who return to life, have ever seen them and as such they rarely (almost never) appear. Generally the more complex a thought, concept, or idea, the more 'advanced' the spren it produces. The more "common" the idea, the more common the spren. So wait what does that have to do with other worlds? These forces exist on all Cosmere worlds, but without the millennia of observation, the general *wealth* of investiture (in the form of stormlight, important later) *and* the latent cognitive connection, the spren to do not "come into being" and simply remain "mindless forces" like Syl's explanation of dead spren (this also explains the remarks made by Jasnah in WoK about how the scholars seem to mention fewer and fewer types of spren the further back one goes in history, and how Dalinar never sees any in his ancient visions) So what does that have to do with Warbreaker and Vasher? Statements by Sanderson seem to suggest that investiture, or magic, as a 'power source' is essentially universal to all the magic systems and is only expressed differently depending on the world and how people obtain it (does this mean an awakener can breathe stormlight? no idea) but we could assume that Nightblood is able to consume Stormlight much as it can Breaths, both simply being different 'flavors' of investiture. Vasher and the other scholars used a *gently caress ton* of Breaths (tens of thousands iirc, like 50,000+) to create Nightblood on a planet that by comparison is incredibly poor (only one breath per person), and "awakened" it with a single simple command (Destroy Evil) which he single mindedly follows. The spren of Roshar were slowly, naturally, awakened by billions of observations and concepts over tens of thousands of years (perhaps with some cataclysm serving to speed up the process at some point) resulting in a nuanced and more 'complete' personality for the more intelligent spren. Nightblood, in contrast with Syl, Ivory, and other bonded spren, is an "artificial spren" with a basic "concept" or purpose of destroying evil. Nightblood *lacks* nuance, acting instead like a child, yet seemingly unable to grow beyond his original investiture unlike Rosharran spren who are constantly "fed" and "grown" by new people observing new situations and new experiences. edit: some spelling grammar and a little clarification treeboy fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Mar 24, 2014 |
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Mar 24, 2014 21:42
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