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I'm torn in that I'd totally would've been fine if Frieza was the end boss but Future Trunks is rad as poo poo.
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Mar 24, 2014 06:48
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Seriously, guys, power levels are bullshit. I think my favourite part of the Cell saga is that there's nobody around to say, "well, 18 and 17 are like power level 80 million, and Cell is like power level 90 million, so when he absorbed them both it was a straight addition so Perfect Cell is now power level 250 million, there's no way our power level 100 million Goku could ever hope to beat him!"  The numbers are utterly, utterly meaningless. Think of your favourite RPG, did the fact that the last boss had several dozen times your HP matter at all? That just made the fight to beat him longer, strategy and skill are still the driving forces behind achieving victory, not raw numbers.
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Mar 24, 2014 07:11
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crankdatbatman posted:But as my last post said, the Freeza thing just makes no loving sense. I am amazed that there are still people who don't understand that the entire point of power levels was that it's impossible to actually quantify a person's abilities and that anyone who thinks they can just gets smugly crushed. Like this is not hard to get.
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Mar 24, 2014 07:20
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Freeza being the final boss would mean that all that foreshadowing of Gohan was pointless, so I am glad we got the Cell saga, even if I feel it should have had no dumb blowing up Goku with King Kai. It could have tied a bit neater into the Buu saga that way too, with Gohan, Goten and Trunks taking the lead over their retired fathers who can't seem to stay calm unless they are fighting each other.
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Mar 24, 2014 09:39
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AS a kid I did waaay too much time figuring this stuff out. So Goku starts his training with King Kai at a base power of something like 600, but with the ability to use the Kamehameha to increase it to around 1300. He trains with King Kai and gets a boost which puts his power level to 9000 (8000, but over 9000) without Kaioken. So that's a increase of 15x. Yamcha and Tien have power levels of something like 2000 when they go to train with King Kai right, higher than a Saibamen, nothing compared to Nappa. So they get a power boost of 15x that base putting them at around 30,000. So this is where things get tricky. The Ginyu force members have power levels of 60,000. So Yamcha and Tien shouldn't get close. It's plausible that everyone who trained with King Kai has some sort of ability to increase their power in tiny bursts at the point of contact. (I think Piccolo explicitly mentions it in the Androids Saga). So if they can stretch to double their power then they can go toe to toe with the Ginyus. It's implausible, but I really like the idea of the Earth fighters genuinely being incredibly powerful by the end of the series. In terms of the Frieza boost. That makes no sense. I always thought Frieza lied about his first form power level and that his final form was what actually clocked in at 1 million. That would mean that Goku's Zenkai boost after Ginyu would increase his power to something like 300,000 at Kaioken x10 (A base increase from 18,000 base to 30,000 base) meaning Frieza at 33% is still stronger than him and a Kaioken x20 presents a legitimate threat to Frieza at mid tier power. Kid me was a nerd....
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Mar 24, 2014 13:14
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I don't get why people try to figure out power levels, it's like trying to divide by 0.
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Mar 24, 2014 13:53
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bowmore posted:I don't get why people try to figure out power levels, it's like trying to divide by 0. Because when you're 14, go to an all boys school and are a massive nerd you end up with a lot of time on your hands.
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Mar 24, 2014 14:10
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Think of the whole piccolo fusion thing like this. Frieza doesn't train, his shtick is that he's just got an insane amount of power, even in his first form. Piccolo has spent his entire life training and in battle, and Nail was iirc a warrior caste Namekian (i.e. literally bred to be able to fight). In comparison Frieza just overwhelms his opponents with raw strength and power. The namekian fusion is essentially a synergy thing. It's not just Piccolo's power + Nail's power, but the integration of everything Nail is into Piccolo, a merging of their respective training and knowledge. Remember that we know little about Nail, but Piccolo was established by then as being a very tactical fighter. Is it really surprising that a fusion like this, where the ability and knowledge to fight is enhanced, enables the new Piccolo to go head to head with Frieza up until the point where Frieza transforms again into a form where he just literally is too strong for their attacks to affect?
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Mar 24, 2014 14:36
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Yorkshire Tea posted:AS a kid I did waaay too much time figuring this stuff out. Have to admit, this makes sense. I try to ignore any power level numbers, but this does explain how Yamcha and Tien and Piccolo's strength after training. One could initially think they'd be the same strength as Goku after he also trained with Kai, but they started training with Kai at a higher level than Goku did, so it makes sense that they would be stronger. Plus all of the human characters are ridiculously strong. I think it's even mentioned that they are pretty much the strongest humans, but they're just that much more overshadowed by Goku's strength. That said, I think they could have fought the Ginyu force by at least attempting the kaio ken even if they weren't taught it. It's not like it would be the first time characters learned techniques just by seeing someone else do them and trying it themselves. see: Krillin learning to fly and (i think) the kamehameha, Goku and Krillin learning solar flare.
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Mar 24, 2014 14:44
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SatansBestBuddy posted:Seriously, guys, power levels are bullshit. I think my favourite part of the Cell saga is that there's nobody around to say, "well, 18 and 17 are like power level 80 million, and Cell is like power level 90 million, so when he absorbed them both it was a straight addition so Perfect Cell is now power level 250 million, there's no way our power level 100 million Goku could ever hope to beat him!" This is one part I loved about the Cell saga. After training in the room of spirit and time, Goku & Gohan visit Karin. Karin has an idea of how powerful Cell is, and Goku wants to compare. Goku goes up to about half, and Karin guesses that he isn't even close. Goku had an idea that's the answer, but wanted to know. I like how there is no specific number or anything associated to it.
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Mar 24, 2014 15:14
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKHJ-mmsMrA
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Mar 24, 2014 16:14
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Steve Jorbs posted:Vegeta was only able to stand against the rest of the Ginyu Force after the zenkai boost of nearly dying, again, and getting a senzu bean from Goku. Although the one kill he scored was against an unconscious opponent. Sure, he killed Recoome and Burter while they were unconscious, but he did nuke Jeice in the face.
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Mar 24, 2014 17:02
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Piccolo matching Freeza makes sense if you assume namekian fusion works like the Potara earrings, multiplying their power levels together. Put Piccolo at a conservative 25000 before fusing with Nail and his 40000 and it puts him right around 1 million. It also explains why fusing with Kami made such a difference, even though Kami was weak he still multiplied Piccolo's power by a few hundred times.
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Mar 24, 2014 17:47
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I have nothing to back this up with, but I've always assumed Piccolo was stronger than Nail before they fused. I'd put Piccolo at roughly the same as Captain Ginyu or a little stronger. Again, no reason, just head canon.
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Mar 24, 2014 18:51
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Blue Star posted:I have nothing to back this up with, but I've always assumed Piccolo was stronger than Nail before they fused. I'd put Piccolo at roughly the same as Captain Ginyu or a little stronger. Again, no reason, just head canon. Nail says he's a lot stronger, that's why his personality has no effect on Piccolo when they fuse, but almost just literally works as a boost. Also, Piccolo's training with Kaio-sama was...sitting in a corner and meditating.
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Mar 24, 2014 18:58
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Darko posted:Nail says he's a lot stronger, that's why his personality has no effect on Piccolo when they fuse, but almost just literally works as a boost. I really wish Piccolo stayed relevant for longer, his bullshit excuse for "training" always made him seem like such a badass.
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Mar 24, 2014 20:20
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furiouskoala posted:Piccolo matching Freeza makes sense if you assume namekian fusion works like the Potara earrings, multiplying their power levels together. Put Piccolo at a conservative 25000 before fusing with Nail and his 40000 and it puts him right around 1 million. It also explains why fusing with Kami made such a difference, even though Kami was weak he still multiplied Piccolo's power by a few hundred times. I don't want to be that guy, but this would put Piccolo at a billion. He'd be able to wipe the floor with Freeza at a 100% at that level. And yeah, power levels are bullshit, but they kinda weren't in the first part of DBZ. Radditz was still overall stronger than Goku and Piccolo barring some flashes of strength from them. Same with Nappa and Vegeta. Even through the Ginyu fight with Goku. It just got really dumb after that point. It was really good that Toriyama got rid of the concept after the Freeza saga.
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Mar 24, 2014 21:12
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Did you miss how both Raditz and Vegeta lost to people who were "weaker" than them? Both times the heroes pulled through with their heads, or in Gohan's case his weight I guess. Because it turns out power levels don't mean jack and your brain is more important than your muscles! EDIT: Hell, DBZ actually handled power levels waaaaay better than any of its successors. The numbers got stupid high and didn't actually mean anything in a real battle (which was again the point), but Toriyama always made it clear that how strong a person was had absolutely nothing to do with how effective their attacks would be. Piccolo was "weaker" than Raditz and Goku but Special Beam Cannon could still drill a hole through the both of them. Krillin is miles beneath Nappa and Freeza but the Destructo Disc and the Solar Flare still worked fine. Vegeta and Goku are explicitly weaker than Perfect Cell but Final Flash and Kamehameha still tore a hole right through him. And so on. It's not like in Bleach or Naruto where if you are X weaker than Y opponent all of your attacks do nothing. Even if you're "weaker", if you're better at fighting or have an ace up your sleeve you win. Which is how it should work! BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Mar 24, 2014 |
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Mar 24, 2014 21:15
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You're comparing apples to oranges here though. I'm not arguing that Krillin's kienzan would not be able to slice Nappa's head off. Or that Radditz shouldn't have lost to A Suddenly Very Powerful Gohan. I am arguing Nappa should and did beat the gang with his higher power level. Same with Radditz. Just because Piccolo and Krillin have tricks up their sleeves means nothing. Piccolo didn't use the special beam cannon on Freeza, he fought him with brute force. Same with Goku. Hell, his trick--the spirit bomb--didn't work on Freeza because his power level was too high. We agree overall but I still contend that the power levels just got stupid and sloppy when it came to time to fight Freeza. Which they did. No level of 'power levels were meant to be bullshit all along!' hand waving will erase how that part of the Freeza saga was sloppily done.
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Mar 24, 2014 21:40
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Since Freeza's empire is so reliant on power levels as a metric of fighting ability, a really cool what-if would be "What if the Namekians weren't nearly wiped out before Freeza went to get the Dragon Balls?" Namekians are naturals at ki manipulation and can be trained to be super tough fighters, after all. Imagine if 99% of their species wasn't dedicated to planting trees. Nail was only trained as a warrior to defend the Elder, and the worst they were worried about was probably some farmers getting pissed off. If there were an actual warrior class and other fighters to train against, Freeza's army would have been wiped the hell out the second he got a little too snarky.crankdatbatman posted:We agree overall but I still contend that the power levels just got stupid and sloppy when it came to time to fight Freeza. Which they did. No level of 'power levels were meant to be bullshit all along!' hand waving will erase how that part of the Freeza saga was sloppily done. I think part of it was that everyone got better at ki manipulation after the Saiyans attacked. Their range of power levels is way wider than it was before that. It would make sense, too; the guys on Earth trained that way in case Vegeta came back, and Vegeta did it to get the drop on Freeza's elite fighters. This would also lead in to how, during the Android saga, they mention how the non-Saiyans got tougher by training themselves to cause their energy to spike way more intensely each time they attacked (or however they explained it). Arsonist Daria fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Mar 24, 2014 |
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Mar 24, 2014 21:46
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I like to think that they don't know how much they can grow in strength till they have some sort of parameter. Also when the guys were trainning with Kai they can spar with each other instead of just chase monkeys. Have someone to actual test your abilities with must be better than solo training. And maybe power levels are read in a logarithmic scale stead of a linear one ,also they are meaningless.
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Mar 24, 2014 21:57
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crankdatbatman posted:Piccolo didn't use the special beam cannon on Freeza, he fought him with brute force. Piccolo is a Namekian, and they're explicitly supposed to be really great at ki manipulation. It's not weird at all that he'd be able to match someone who's pure power, no skill like Freeza. Not that it really matters anyways because Piccolo vs Freeza was a quick exchange where both sides were holding back. quote:Same with Goku. Hell, his trick--the spirit bomb--didn't work on Freeza because his power level was too high. Freeza explicitly says the spirit bomb could have killed him. It's actually completely unexplained how he survived, he just kind of did. Even he's surprised he lived.
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Mar 24, 2014 22:16
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Didn't the Kienzen not work on Cell?
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Mar 24, 2014 22:49
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Kild posted:Didn't the Kienzen not work on Cell? Only in the anime.
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Mar 24, 2014 23:03
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BlitzBlast posted:Did you miss how both Raditz and Vegeta lost to people who were "weaker" than them? Both times the heroes pulled through with their heads, or in Gohan's case his weight I guess. Power levels illustrated all of that. They were just a visual identifier to provide a definitive point that the heroes had to progress to in order to defeat the bad guy. And they worked well for that. They started off in showing exactly how the ki manipulation battles (which became the new focus) worked. This guy is 2000, these guys are 800. But when they draw ki to do a kamehameha, they create an attack equivalent to a guy who is 1500. When Gohan gets mad, his power level spikes ridiculously, then falls. That was the advantage they had over the villains - they were mostly static and didn't understand ki manipulation to become better than their raw power level. It's not that power levels are bullshit, it's that the villains are crap at controlling their ki for the most part. Vegeta just surprises you by showing that he, too, figured out how to do similar when he fights Goku. This continued in the early parts of the Freeza saga (and also showed how the zenkai boost worked). Then, it changed focus. It started introducing people that were so powerful that "tricks" would cease to work, and near-death boosts would not be enough as well. Then it introduced a "last boss" with an unfathomable power that it looked like there was no real way to beat him. Then it stopped. After the Freeza saga, the focus stopped being on "unfathomably powerful enemies" and you already knew how the boosts and ki building worked so the power levels ceased to be useful at all and were thrown out. 19 and 20 showed up and were less powerful than the top tier heroes. 17 and 18 were about as powerful, but didn't run out of energy at all (so it focused on retaining energy). Then Cell showed up weaker than everyone, and was using the heroes' own tactics against them to get gradual power boosts, and then a BS power boost that made him a tier above everyone. Buu saga, and you once again have a villain that's equal to the top tier for the most part, but so ridiculously hard to kill (and had so many magic tricks up his sleeve) that he was hard to stop. So it's basically just a difference in focuses of the show, once it exhausted the "gradually more and more powerful" enemy thing that power levels signified.
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Mar 24, 2014 23:59
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Wow, until now I thought new Kai in April wouldn't happen cause there was no footage or official announcement, but I guess here it is!
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Mar 25, 2014 03:55
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Weird how part of that teaser trailer was actually filler (the Gotenks vs Fat Buu bit).
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Mar 25, 2014 09:36
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Does this then confirm we get to witness HD Candy beat up Buu? 
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Mar 25, 2014 11:47
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BlitzBlast posted:Piccolo is a Namekian, and they're explicitly supposed to be really great at ki manipulation. It's not weird at all that he'd be able to match someone who's pure power, no skill like Freeza. I'd like to think the issue with the spirit bomb was what exactly Goku said: not enough life remaining for it to be truly effective. Even with the amount of energy he was able to pull, part of Freeza's tail got destroyed which is still impressive. Had the fight been on Earth, it might have worked.
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Mar 25, 2014 14:21
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BlitzBlast posted:Freeza explicitly says the spirit bomb could have killed him. It's actually completely unexplained how he survived, he just kind of did. Even he's surprised he lived. I think it works on the same principle like the Devilman beam in Dragonball, except that if you have even an ounce of goodness in you, you can survive, and Frieza for how evil he was, was still a being borne of flesh and blood and not a magic construct from the very concept of evil like kid Buu was. At least that is what I assume Vegeta also concluded and why he recommended Goku charge one up.
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Mar 25, 2014 15:09
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Darko posted:19 and 20 showed up and were less powerful than the top tier heroes. 17 and 18 were about as powerful, but didn't run out of energy at all (so it focused on retaining energy). Then Cell showed up weaker than everyone, and was using the heroes' own tactics against them to get gradual power boosts, and then a BS power boost that made him a tier above everyone. Buu saga, and you once again have a villain that's equal to the top tier for the most part, but so ridiculously hard to kill (and had so many magic tricks up his sleeve) that he was hard to stop. 18 kicked SSJ Vegeta so hard she broke his arm. They werent "about as powerful" at all. They outclassed everyone so much that they didnt give a poo poo and just went clothes shopping and stole cars and stuff.
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Mar 25, 2014 19:06
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ChronoReverse posted:Only in the anime. You still have Chiaotzu suicide bombing Nappa to no effect.
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Mar 25, 2014 19:35
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Kild posted:You still have Chiaotzu suicide bombing Nappa to no effect. Chiaotzu just sucks.
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Mar 25, 2014 19:38
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KoB posted:18 kicked SSJ Vegeta so hard she broke his arm. They werent "about as powerful" at all. They outclassed everyone so much that they didnt give a poo poo and just went clothes shopping and stole cars and stuff. Not quite, the entire team could have beaten one of the androids if they'd teamed up. This is established in the dialogue. Two androids probably would have been harder and would probably require Goku to do it.
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Mar 25, 2014 19:42
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KoB posted:18 kicked SSJ Vegeta so hard she broke his arm. They werent "about as powerful" at all. They outclassed everyone so much that they didnt give a poo poo and just went clothes shopping and stole cars and stuff. 17/18 were a notch above Vegeta, with the kicker being that they didn't drain energy while fighting. Vegeta fought 18 hard enough to annoy her, meaning that, as Roboto said, if it was one of their normal group fights, they would probably win, especially with Goku involved. Compare Vegeta vs. 18 to Vegeta vs. Freeza. Completely different presentation. They were also established as not really being villains. They were shown as "different" from the other androids in that they were just teens having a good time, with a pesky "gotta kill Goku one day" bit of programming in there. And then, soon after showing up, Piccolo, of all people, powered up to their level.
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Mar 25, 2014 20:32
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Darko posted:17/18 were a notch above Vegeta, with the kicker being that they didn't drain energy while fighting. Vegeta fought 18 hard enough to annoy her, meaning that, as Roboto said, if it was one of their normal group fights, they would probably win, especially with Goku involved. Compare Vegeta vs. 18 to Vegeta vs. Freeza. Completely different presentation. On the other hand 17 effortlessly wiped the floor with the entire rest of the team. More to the point he went toe to toe with 'super' piccolo later on who was considerably stronger than Vegeta was when he lost to 18. The endless energy thing helps, but 17 is still a decent step above everyone else.
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Mar 25, 2014 20:47
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Caros posted:On the other hand 17 effortlessly wiped the floor with the entire rest of the team. More to the point he went toe to toe with 'super' piccolo later on who was considerably stronger than Vegeta was when he lost to 18. Quite right, though we don't know exactly how much stronger Super Piccolo was than SSJ Vegeta.
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Mar 25, 2014 20:55
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I thought 17 and 18 had equal power levels, being twins and all that.
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Mar 25, 2014 20:56
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Away all Goats posted:I thought 17 and 18 had equal power levels, being twins and all that.
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Mar 25, 2014 20:59
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Away all Goats posted:I thought 17 and 18 had equal power levels, being twins and all that. 17 claims he's the strongest android (although that is later handily disproven by 16) but it's hard to say whether that's just him being an egotistical dick or if he's actually stronger than 18.
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Mar 25, 2014 21:00
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