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Mukip posted:Alright, so they're devastating warriors to have around if you need to raid a fishing village. They sound like such posers. In the histories and lore Stannis mentions that he loving ruined them prior to the events of the series using the royal navy. So they aren't even great on the sea. They're like the shittiest vikings imaginable really.
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Jun 2, 2014 10:06
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Blazing Ownager posted:Oh yeah: Bronn would have won. Bronn already won. Unlikely basically every other character on this show he knows not to fight battles he isn't completely sure he is going to win.
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Jun 2, 2014 10:08
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Anyone bitching about this outcome, let me ask you one thing: When was the last time you watched a TV show with a BIG IMPORTANT SHOWDOWN (TM) where you really, truly did not know what was going to happen? Going into the fight I gave the Viper a 50/50 odd. I honestly did not know. There was enough to support both from a writing perspective. I was on watching a TV show, but on the edge of my seat because I had no idea what would truly happen next. Other than Breaking Bad, that's never happened, and even there.. we know some things. We know Walt wouldn't die, because that would be the show. There were rules even in that surprising, awesome piece of TV. GoT has no rules. At all. Now I'm not trying to knock BB at all, and in fact, it is probably the superior show in many ways. And I wouldn't want this in every kind of TV I watch, either. But as characters keep on ticking in shows like The Walking Dead and the aforementioned BB off the air, holy poo poo am I glad there's something still being made that really can surprise the hell out of me and keep me guessing.
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Jun 2, 2014 10:09
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somnambulist posted:I'm the guy who winces whenever anything gets near someones eyes (a sharp object, a bee, whatever) so the end of this episode made my stomach turn. HOLY gently caress. So gross. I'm not really "complaining" per se (i thought it was well done) but good god I cant take another scene like that anytime soon. In all my years of watching, I've learned this about myself: it's always the "dehumanizing" movie/tv deaths that really rub me the wrong way. It doesn't even have to be gory - just seeing some dude get crushed underfoot by a giant monster just bothers me. Obviously we associate people's faces (and especially eyes!) as part of their human-ness, so Oberyn's death made me extremely uncomfortable. It didn't help that he was screaming and writhing in agony right before it happened. Maybe I'm not cut out for this show.
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Jun 2, 2014 10:10
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Blazing Ownager posted:Anyone bitching about this outcome, let me ask you one thing: Breaking Bad had a similar thing midway through the show, for me: Hank being ambushed by the cousins in the parking lot. I was on the edge of my seat the entire time and had no idea how it was going to play out.
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Jun 2, 2014 10:11
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I am honestly shocked, and obviously some percentage of you people are lying, that anyone could not know what is coming up on this show. We're watching episodes based on a book which is over a decade old, and the sole reason the internet exists is to spoil and troll, so how did anyone not know the result of the fight?
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Jun 2, 2014 10:12
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precision posted:it wasn't emotional or impactful Apart from that it made you have a big cry and quit the show forever
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Jun 2, 2014 10:12
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Traitorous Leopard posted:In all my years of watching, I've learned this about myself: it's always the "dehumanizing" movie/tv deaths that really rub me the wrong way. It doesn't even have to be gory - just seeing some dude get crushed underfoot by a giant monster just bothers me. Obviously we associate people's faces (and especially eyes!) as part of their human-ness, so Oberyn's death made me extremely uncomfortable. It didn't help that he was screaming and writhing in agony right before it happened. Maybe I'm not cut out for this show. I think it had to be ugly. To show him die a noble warrior from an honorable blow.. it wouldn't have sold the crushing unfair, brutal injustice taking place. It had to be terrible for it was apart of something terrible. There are times the show crosses over into shock gore for shock gore's sake, but I think this served the story.
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Jun 2, 2014 10:12
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John Charity Spring posted:Breaking Bad had a similar thing midway through the show, for me: Is that the scene where he runs some motherfuckers over? It's been a while since I've seen that show.
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Jun 2, 2014 10:14
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John Charity Spring posted:Breaking Bad had a similar thing midway through the show, for me: Great example. And an amazing scene. Though it turned into way more of a fist pumping HOLY poo poo YES! than things worked out here.
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Jun 2, 2014 10:15
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MC Fruit Stripe posted:I am honestly shocked, and obviously some percentage of you people are lying, that anyone could not know what is coming up on this show. We're watching episodes based on a book which is over a decade old, and the sole reason the internet exists is to spoil and troll, so how did anyone not know the result of the fight? Too minor for drive-by spoils and really, who's read all the wikis?
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Jun 2, 2014 10:15
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Traitorous Leopard posted:In all my years of watching, I've learned this about myself: it's always the "dehumanizing" movie/tv deaths that really rub me the wrong way. It doesn't even have to be gory - just seeing some dude get crushed underfoot by a giant monster just bothers me. Obviously we associate people's faces (and especially eyes!) as part of their human-ness, so Oberyn's death made me extremely uncomfortable. It didn't help that he was screaming and writhing in agony right before it happened. Maybe I'm not cut out for this show. His death was pretty impactful, because you have this.. flamboyant, in control, confident, fast and fluid warrior with all this passion and drive for vengeance against this big, cumbersome, ogre of a fighter we all want die, who is simply doing things just because, with no real greater drive in life. Oberyn has all this flavor and nuance to him. He's just so full of life. And Gregor isn't. And you never saw Oberyn show any fear or doubt, and he seemed so masterfully in control, and then he dies screaming and terrified. It wasn't like he got stabbed through the chest. It was a grisly, face-crushing, ruining way to die. He completely lost any personality and died in total terror. It's like, for a moment, you think this true character of a man is going to triumph and then the cold hard edge of reality cuts him down and shatters his confidence. His means of death too was like.. permanent ruination before the end came.
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Jun 2, 2014 10:15
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Cybershell posted:Oberyn has all this flavor and nuance to him. He's just so full of life. And Gregor isn't. And you never saw Oberyn show any fear or doubt, and he seemed so masterfully in control, and then he dies screaming and terrified. It wasn't like he got stabbed through the chest. It was a grisly, face-crushing, ruining way to die. He completely lost any personality and died in total terror. It's like, for a moment, you think this true character of a man is going to triumph and then the cold hard edge of reality cuts him down and shatters his confidence. His means of death too was like.. permanent ruination before the end came. And that is why I think it had to be shot this way and this is a honest example where I will say "the gore was needed for the story." You had to see it just like this, to truly be hit with the moment.
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Jun 2, 2014 10:17
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Blazing Ownager posted:I think it had to be ugly. I can see this, and I have to hand it to the writer's - the moment's leading up to his death noticeably raised my heart rate like no movie/tv show has done in a while (even though part of me knew something bad was about to happen).
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Jun 2, 2014 10:18
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Blazing Ownager posted:I think it had to be ugly. I respectfully disagree. I mean, I accept that it's there, because that's obviously what they went with. But I don't think it served the story any more than just implying the death by cutting away or giving him a quicker--though no less brutal--death. There are other ways of making the point of brutal injustice than just 'pop man's head like a grape'.
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Jun 2, 2014 10:20
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Cybershell posted:His death was pretty impactful, because you have this.. flamboyant, in control, confident, fast and fluid warrior with all this passion and drive for vengeance against this big, cumbersome, ogre of a fighter we all want die, who is simply doing things just because, with no real greater drive in life. I don't think I could have worded this any better.
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Jun 2, 2014 10:20
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All I can say is that if they kill Tyrion then I'm giving up on everyone and rooting for the Whitewalkers.
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Jun 2, 2014 10:20
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Macrame_God posted:All I can say is that if they kill Tyrion then I'm giving up on everyone and rooting for the Whitewalkers. You aren't already?
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Jun 2, 2014 10:22
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Macrame_God posted:All I can say is that if they kill Tyrion then I'm giving up on everyone and rooting for the Whitewalkers. I'd laugh if the end of the books is GRMM gearing up for this big confrontation between the Mother of Dragons and the rest of Westeros and then the White Walkers come, push everyone's poo poo in and end the world because no one was paying the gently caress attention. 'Everyone dies! Nothing ever mattered in all of these books! GG.'
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Jun 2, 2014 10:23
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Cybershell posted:His death was pretty impactful, because you have this.. flamboyant, in control, confident, fast and fluid warrior with all this passion and drive for vengeance against this big, cumbersome, ogre of a fighter we all want die, who is simply doing things just because, with no real greater drive in life. This is pretty much how I felt. I was horrified when he started screaming. And his "love" watching it happen after he spent 5 minutes of being the coolest motherfucker on the planet was just....ugh..... I actually feel queasy and thats never ever happened to me before.
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Jun 2, 2014 10:27
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We were only given a small taste, so I'm still really curious as to what direction they're gonna take the Whitewalker characterization in. I'm glad it at least appears they aren't going to be just a mindless zombie horde.
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Jun 2, 2014 10:28
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:You aren't already? Eventually everybody will come to accept the only legitimate and true King - Stannis Baratheon. 
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Jun 2, 2014 10:29
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somnambulist posted:This is pretty much how I felt. I was horrified when he started screaming. And his "love" watching it happen after he spent 5 minutes of being the coolest motherfucker on the planet was just....ugh..... I actually feel queasy and thats never ever happened to me before. Ha, yeah, literally nothing in this show has fazed me (Red Wedding included) until tonight.
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Jun 2, 2014 10:31
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Dapper Dan posted:I'd laugh if the end of the books is GRMM gearing up for this big confrontation between the Mother of Dragons and the rest of Westeros and then the White Walkers come, push everyone's poo poo in and end the world because no one was paying the gently caress attention. 'Everyone dies! Nothing ever mattered in all of these books! GG.' The Winds of Winter is secretly the last book.
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Jun 2, 2014 10:32
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BubbleGoose posted:I wonder if Sansa is not extremely cautious around Littlefinger now that she's gotten wiser to the game. She's confessed to knowing what he wants, and Littlefinger seemed to feel confident around her because he believed she was ignorant on the whole. On the other hand, Littlefinger doesn't know what Sansa wants. Now it feels like she's got the upper hand. Really? Littlefinger has made it crystal clear to the viewers and Sansa that she is the worst liar on the planet and that he is capable of manipulating just about any scenario to his advantage. She also knows that he can and will kill anyone in the way of his agenda. He knew exactly how that scene was going to play out even before he bought skydiving lessons for Lysa as a wedding gift. Sansa told the straight up truth with the bare minimum of exceptions. She established her identity and credibility by telling Lord Royce something only she would know. Littlefinger minimized his risk because he knew Sansa simply was not up to the task of acting like the bastard of an until recently very minor lord. To quote Tyrion after she paid lip service to Joffrey, "Lady Sansa you may survive us yet." She learned to survive Joffery and now she's surviving Littlefinger by doing exactly as he told her. Even if she didn't do a convincing job of telling the very few lies she did, by establishing her identity as the daughter of a nobleman renowned for his honor. Oberyn has a better chance of surviving his encounter with the mountain than Littlefinger had of getting pinched in that scene. There isn't a universe in which Sansa ever has the upper hand on Littlefinger. Tyrion MIGHT be able to pull it off and the closest Littlefinger has ever come to being out maneuvered was the season one scene with Cersei and the nature of power. Littlefinger killed the Lords of the Vales' very reasonable suspicions by having a very credible witness simply telling them what they already knew: Lysa was totally nuts. VVVVV I'm a filthy book reader so unless I forgot something that huge or the show makes a radical deviation, that ain't happening. If I did feel free to pm me and I'll buy you an avatar or something. I'm not so sure of myself because I've read the books, there are supposed to be more books (insert your grrm jokes here) but I'm as sure they'll finish the story on the show as I am with my assertions in this post. So please don't take it as me claiming you're wrong because I know it for a fact but rather that I believe you're wrong based on the show itself. HUGE SPACEKABLOOIE fucked around with this message at 11:10 on Jun 2, 2014 |
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Jun 2, 2014 10:41
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HUGE SPACEKABLOOIE posted:There isn't a universe in which Sansa ever has the upper hand on Littlefinger. All I have to say is: keep watching. That little girl is going to play him one day.
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Jun 2, 2014 10:45
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Napoleon Bonaparty posted:The Winds of Winter is secretly the last book. I mean, I couldn't be upset with it. It is fitting and does have an important message. We're too busy trying to screw each other over for poo poo that doesn't really matter and that we treat the real threat to our species as fantasy. The ones that do believe it are just as caught up trying to gently caress each other over as everybody else, except for maybe a handful that will probably end up dead due to politics or have no resources to fight said threat. The only way to win is for mankind to come together (ha-loving-hah) and since that is never happening, we all die. The end!
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Jun 2, 2014 10:48
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precision posted:Between the Jorah, Theon and Oberyn poo poo, I'm done with this show. gently caress it. If I hear that cool stuff ever starts happening again fine, but if I want to feel like this all I gotta do is go hang out with the junkies under the bridge. Not sure why people are this upset over Oberyn's death. I figured he had a chance to survive in the adaptation because by George's own admission he died too soon. That being said, the important thing to take away from this is when any big character dies in the show, you need to trace by to why they died. People in the series with a name don't die arbitrarily, they go out because of their own mistakes, character failings, their failure at making a good judgement or the machinations of other characters. A lot of the time it has a good lesson attached to it. Oberyn died because a fight to the death isn't the place you take unnecessary risks or fail to seize the initiative. As for Orson's Beetles the deeper meaning probably lies with the rest of the episode. Almost every character talks about death throughout the episode. It was the theme of the episode. Everyone and everything dies, some of the time for no reason at all. Nelson Mandingo fucked around with this message at 10:54 on Jun 2, 2014 |
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Jun 2, 2014 10:49
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Nelson Mandingo posted:As for Orson's Beetles the deeper meaning probably lies with the rest of the episode. Almost every character talks about death throughout the episode. It was the theme of the episode. Everyone and everything dies, a lot of the time for no reason at all. The beauty of the beetle conversation is that you can take it in any way you want and still have it make sense. And you will still never really know why those beetles are being crushed.
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Jun 2, 2014 10:52
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BubbleGoose posted:I respectfully disagree. I mean, I accept that it's there, because that's obviously what they went with. But I don't think it served the story any more than just implying the death by cutting away or giving him a quicker--though no less brutal--death. There are other ways of making the point of brutal injustice than just 'pop man's head like a grape'. I think the point if it did what it set out to do is the reaction. This wasn't "gently caress yes!" or "Haha that was crazy!" gore like you'd see in a slasher movie, or even some of the more over the top kills in GoT (Golden crown, anyone?) This was horrifying, made you wince, and look back in shock and horror. Many people have that shell shocked feeling after. None of that would have happened without being VERY explicit.
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Jun 2, 2014 10:56
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Dapper Dan posted:The beauty of the beetle conversation is that you can take it in any way you want and still have it make sense. And you will still never really know why those beetles are being crushed. I take George using Oberyn's death as a real illustration of the story. "Haha! He crushed his head just like those beetles I mentioned earlier! I'm a genius."
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Jun 2, 2014 10:57
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Dapper Dan posted:The beauty of the beetle conversation is that you can take it in any way you want and still have it make sense. And you will still never really know why those beetles are being crushed.
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Jun 2, 2014 10:58
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Macrame_God posted:All I can say is that if they kill Tyrion then I'm giving up on everyone and rooting for the Whitewalkers. Said it before and I'll say it again. At this point I think the most satisfying finale would be two episodes of Arya reenacting the plot of Fantasy Kill Bill 20 years later. In particular after seeing so many avenging types die horribly. Every single person would be convinced she was going to die, but let her keep winning. It'd be hilarious. I can't help but feel she's destine to try to become a face dancer in the end anyway.
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Jun 2, 2014 11:00
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Cybershell posted:His death was pretty impactful, because you have this.. flamboyant, in control, confident, fast and fluid warrior with all this passion and drive for vengeance against this big, cumbersome, ogre of a fighter we all want die, who is simply doing things just because, with no real greater drive in life. This sums it up good. I think it also matches up with Tyrion's beetle genocide speech. He tried to find reason for all this death and suffering, and there was no answer. GoT is pretty nihilistic. It's not that the good guy always loses, it's just that sometimes he does and sometimes he doesn't and there's really no rhyme or reason to it. That said evil prevails more often than not simply because it's not held back by morality. That's not the story you get in most popular media. Sheng-Ji Yang fucked around with this message at 11:19 on Jun 2, 2014 |
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Jun 2, 2014 11:10
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:This sums it up good. I think it also matches up with Tyrion's beetle genocide speech. He tried to find reason for all this death and suffering, and there was no answer. In the same episode we have a guy who: Murders and flays people. Castrates a rival house's family and turn him into a human dog. Tortures and randomly murders for no reason what so ever, because he finds it fun. He gets: A huge promotion, accepted by his family, and everything he wanted. EDIT: I hope this doesn't count as a spoiler but in the book please tell me this fight was from Obreyn's POV? Somehow I can only picture it written that way. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 11:20 on Jun 2, 2014 |
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Jun 2, 2014 11:17
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:This sums it up good. I think it also matches up with Tyrion's beetle genocide speech. He tried to find reason for all this death and suffering, and there was no answer. I don't think it is a question of morality. It is a question of knowing the game that you are playing, knowing the risks you face and preparing for them. You have to be ready to change, to adapt. To be a chameleon. This doesn't require you to be evil or cruel, just smart. Ned Stark was executed because he was far too honorable and trusting. He refused to change his nature even while walking into a den of predators. Rob Stark chose to put love before his cause, the risks be damned and paid a terrible price for it. Oberyon embraced his own hubris and never thought of abandoning it. Each of them threw risks to the wind and refused to adapt. Varis and Littlefinger are the ultimate survivors. Sansa is alive because she could change and adapt. So is Arya. Tyrion has always been this way, except his situation is one not of his own making, but fate's. The characters that died did so because, while they acknowledged the risks of the game they were playing, they did not adapt to them. They were inflexible and the broke instead of bending. If Ned was less trusting and more secretive, he might have been alive. If Rob Stark took his love as his mistress instead of his wife, he'd be alive. If Oberyon shuttered his ego for a moment (or wore a goddamn helmet), he'd be alive. This is why the character deaths are so well-done. Because each was basically by their own hand. They refused to be flexible in a time when they seriously needed to be and it cost them their lives.
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Jun 2, 2014 11:24
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Blazing Ownager posted:In the same episode we have a guy who: I'd have to go back and look but I want to say it was a Tyrion chapter. As far as I remember there were no Oberyn chapters. BubbleGoose posted:All I have to say is: keep watching. That little girl is going to play him one day. I get it if that's all you want to say but would you mind indulging me on why you think this?
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Jun 2, 2014 11:26
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Dapper Dan posted:I don't think it is a question of morality. It is a question of knowing the game that you are playing, knowing the risks you face and preparing for them. You have to be ready to change, to adapt. To be a chameleon. This doesn't require you to be evil or cruel, just smart. Ned Stark was executed because he was far too honorable and trusting. He refused to change his nature even while walking into a den of predators. Rob Stark chose to put love before his cause, the risks be damned and paid a terrible price for it. Oberyon embraced his own hubris and never thought of abandoning it. Each of them threw risks to the wind and refused to adapt. This is a good post, all the  moments in the show seem to get that reaction because almost all of them could have been prevented somehow.
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Jun 2, 2014 11:28
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Blazing Ownager posted:I think the point if it did what it set out to do is the reaction. This wasn't "gently caress yes!" or "Haha that was crazy!" gore like you'd see in a slasher movie, or even some of the more over the top kills in GoT (Golden crown, anyone?) This was horrifying, made you wince, and look back in shock and horror. Many people have that shell shocked feeling after. Well, I guessed it worked for you and others. But I wasn't shell shocked, just disgusted. As in 'that was disgusting and tasteless.' I could have done without because it didn't add anything to me but sensationalist tv. If others took away something from it, fine. I'm just not convinced there was anything more going on than exploitation. For instance, many viewers were put off by the Ramsey/Reek torture scene. I wasn't particularly bothered by it, but I could respect others not takin well to it.
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Jun 2, 2014 11:28
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Acquilae posted:Me in the final minute: Me too - had to look away at the eye gouging part. IncendiaC posted:I started laughing with Arya, that scene was loving hilarious. The whole thing is absolutely ridiculous from her POV. Started laughing when they showed Hounds face first - so first he tried to ransom her to Robb - shows up just as Robb and his men get massacred. Now this. Was there any other examples of The Hound Cant Catch A Break (TM) ? Edit: Really hope the Mountain still dies from his wounds - gently caress that guy
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