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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:$150? Isn't this game fully funded? It's not pay-to-win.  How can you win when you spend $150 on a ship that doesn't even exist yet? 
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Jun 20, 2014 22:10
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:$150? Isn't this game fully funded? It is, but the only people winning in this scenario are the RSI shareholders and executive team.
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Jun 20, 2014 22:15
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:How is this not P2W? In P2W you exchange money for a large relative advantage in power that cannot be reached, or can only be reached through unreasonable effort, by non-paying players. Roberts gets to eat his cake and keep it too, all the paying with none of the advantage. Because people are paying 150$ for variety, not real advantage. gently caress knows why.
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Jun 20, 2014 22:17
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I have been meaning to ask, in EVE how did the giant ships project force? Were they not slower than smaller ships? Could the smaller ships not just snicker and avoid them?
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Jun 20, 2014 22:18
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:$150? Isn't this game fully funded? Your stance as a #ConcernedCitizen has been noted. I have submitted your concerns to the council of elders, and you have officially been absolved of your requirement to purchase this ship. Your bank account will not be automatically charged for this ship purchase. Please ensure you remember to opt out from all future mandatory ship purchases.
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Jun 20, 2014 22:19
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Octopode posted:Your stance as a #ConcernedCitizen has been noted.  I love your inability to think critically.
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Jun 20, 2014 22:21
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BitBasher posted:I have been meaning to ask, in EVE how did the giant ships project force? Were they not slower than smaller ships? Could the smaller ships not just snicker and avoid them? Generally in EVE bigger ships take longer to lock onto smaller ships, and also have a harder time hitting them with their weapons. Generally. But EVE is complicated so the answer is more detailed than that and I'm sure if you find the right thread somebody can explain it to you in 20,000 words or so. (Not being a smartass, EVE confuses me as well).
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Jun 20, 2014 22:22
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BitBasher posted:I have been meaning to ask, in EVE how did the giant ships project force? Were they not slower than smaller ships? Could the smaller ships not just snicker and avoid them? They could. Big ships went after bases and towers that give you territorial control/income and poo poo. So the small ships could bugger off and impotently watch as the big ones burned their home to the ground, and then declare they didn't want those space stations anyway. No big ship = no territory = you get to live in the space slums of lowsec with no way to make space moneys.
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Jun 20, 2014 22:22
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DatonKallandor posted:Haha yeah, that thing is completely hosed in a fight. Know how the Scythe wings come apart instantly under any fire? Now imagine the main engines are in there and they're even bigger. It's the 300i giant engine vulnerability, but instead of only being hittable from behind it's mounted all around the ship so you can mission kill it from (nearly) every angle. I guess Elite had it right from the start.
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Jun 20, 2014 22:24
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:I guess Elite had it right from the start. Triangles are the future. Get on board.
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Jun 20, 2014 22:27
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Courthouse posted:They could. Big ships went after bases and towers that give you territorial control/income and poo poo. So the small ships could bugger off and impotently watch as the big ones burned their home to the ground, and then declare they didn't want those space stations anyway. This, and also large ships can instantly (or near instantly) jump from one system to another at a specific location via jump drives. Once they land in the new location they're slower to maneuver, but with those larger ships you generally are either targeting a fleet which cannot easily escape or immobile structures. Thank god too, or they would take hours to move relatively short distances.
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Jun 20, 2014 22:28
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Courthouse posted:They could. Big ships went after bases and towers that give you territorial control/income and poo poo. So the small ships could bugger off and impotently watch as the big ones burned their home to the ground, and then declare they didn't want those space stations anyway. So then since the economy in Star Citizen doesn't work that way with economic nodes unable to be attacked and since players do not build structures, big ships are of less of a combat issue since it's far harder to project force with them. Am I wrong based on what we know?
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Jun 20, 2014 22:28
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Octopode posted:Not really, given that each individual engine here isn't nearly as important as the main thruster on the 300i. Even with the loss of one or two of the engine pods here, you'll still likely be reasonably maneuverable given that all the engines on this are supposed to act like maneuvering thrusters, so the remaining pods should be able to compensate somewhat. We already know how ships handle when primary thrusters go (badly). Hell we know how badly ships with all thrusters intact (badly). If you think their IFCS can handle flying that thing with some of the primary engines missing you haven't been paying attention to lack of programming skills in CIG. It's a light fighter yeah - but it's a light fighter that's bigger and with a less survivable geometry than the light fighters we already have. It's another case of them selling something ridiculously expensive that's also ridiculously badly designed for their mechanics. Kind of like most of the things they've designed (badly for their engine).
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Jun 20, 2014 22:29
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DatonKallandor posted:It's a light fighter yeah It was originally, now it's a medium fighter according to the stats page.
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Jun 20, 2014 22:31
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BitBasher posted:So then since the economy in Star Citizen doesn't work that way with economic nodes unable to be attacked and since players do not build structures, big ships are of less of a combat issue since it's far harder to project force with them. Am I wrong based on what we know? Considering how much of the economic model has yet to be implemented I would not say that.
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Jun 20, 2014 22:31
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BitBasher posted:So then since the economy in Star Citizen doesn't work that way with economic nodes unable to be attacked and since players do not build structures, big ships are of less of a combat issue since it's far harder to project force with them. Am I wrong based on what we know? It really ends up depending on what you mean by projecting force. We know capital ships can't easily be taken out by fighters alone, and generally require other capitals or bombers to do significant damage to them. Given that most of the larger ships seem to have ship docking/rearming/repair facilities to support fighters--and some significant anti-ship weaponry, they seem to be fairly capable of force projection in terms of being able to deny an area of space to an enemy while they are present. But as far as permanent capture / control of space in some fashion, a la Eve, probably not.
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Jun 20, 2014 22:35
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BitBasher posted:So then since the economy in Star Citizen doesn't work that way with economic nodes unable to be attacked and since players do not build structures, big ships are of less of a combat issue since it's far harder to project force with them. Am I wrong based on what we know? We don't know. At least in the lawless regions CIG has talked about fighting over stations, so I imagine denying access to those stations with big guns could be helpful.
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Jun 20, 2014 22:36
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BitBasher posted:So then since the economy in Star Citizen doesn't work that way with economic nodes unable to be attacked and since players do not build structures, big ships are of less of a combat issue since it's far harder to project force with them. Am I wrong based on what we know? I'd say you should expect more Freelancer and less anything else. The primary aim of the game will be for players to operate single/multicrew fighter/haulers on a variety of Stretch goals (Fighting, Transport, Mining, Racing, Exploration). Supposedly players or groups will be able to control Carriers and some space-stations but not entire Systems.
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Jun 20, 2014 22:40
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BitBasher posted:It was originally, now it's a medium fighter according to the stats page. Well that's better then (if it's true - my stats page still says light fighter). If they bump it up to medium they have good reason to give it a much bigger shield gen slot - and better-than-light-fighter shields can help a lot with (very) unfortunate geometry. Plus the 2 person (does it still have that?) cockpit makes more sense for something that's not a light fighter. Apart from the weakness of the shape and engine placement it does actually look like an interesting ship. 2 Turrets with seemingly great coverage, and a 2nd person in the cockpit (presumably to control the turrets) should be quite effective. DatonKallandor fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Jun 20, 2014 |
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Jun 20, 2014 22:43
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DatonKallandor posted:We already know how ships handle when primary thrusters go (badly). Hell we know how badly ships with all thrusters intact (badly). If you think their IFCS can handle flying that thing with some of the primary engines missing you haven't been paying attention to lack of programming skills in CIG. We don't currently have any examples of ships with multiple primary thrusters to gauge that against, so you can't really say that with any certainty. We also don't have any current ships operating under the same premise as the Scout, since it doesn't have primary thrusters in the same way other ships do. You're also comparing the fragility of a Scythe, with a size 2 shield and which is fragile by design, against that of a ship with the same size shield as a Hornet--which doesn't suffer from nearly the same fragility issues. Presumably, the Scout will have similar structural integrity to match. E: BitBasher posted:It was originally, now it's a medium fighter according to the stats page. Octopode fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Jun 20, 2014 |
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Jun 20, 2014 22:45
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Warcabbit posted:When is the best time to hit countermeasures, anyhow? As soon as you hear the alert or? They seem to work best when used as soon as the warning is given.
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Jun 20, 2014 22:51
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Nothing can justify the price tag of the Xi-An stylish flying coffin but it may have the role of rescue vessel. It comes with 2 seats and could be a good way to zip out some mate flying on his space suit in the middle of a battle or just in the middle of nowhere after some terrible fire took his ship, assuming it doesn't turn into a double suicide mission, but assuming cap fights where caps can't possibly hit that thing..... internet spaceships role theorycrafting like a boss 
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Jun 20, 2014 23:14
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froody guy posted:Nothing can justify the price tag of the Xi-An stylish flying coffin but it may have the role of rescue vessel. It comes with 2 seats and could be a good way to zip out some mate flying on his space suit in the middle of a battle or just in the middle of nowhere after some terrible fire took his ship, assuming it doesn't turn into a double suicide mission, but assuming cap fights where caps can't possibly hit that thing..... internet spaceships role theorycrafting like a boss I'm not sure it actually has space for two crew anymore. None of the cockpit renders or other art seems to show anywhere a second person could sit, despite what the stats page says. Maybe you can just hang them off a pod or something.
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Jun 20, 2014 23:18
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Octopode posted:Not sure where you're seeing that. The stats page still lists it as a light fighter, and all the text blurbs describe it as a light attack or scout/explorer craft. I was referring to the Scythe, I may have been unclear.
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Jun 20, 2014 23:29
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Octopode posted:I'm not sure it actually has space for two crew anymore. None of the cockpit renders or other art seems to show anywhere a second person could sit, despite what the stats page says. The Xi'an Scout is definitely a 2 person ship with pilot and co-pilot seats.
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Jun 20, 2014 23:37
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BitBasher posted:So then since the economy in Star Citizen doesn't work that way with economic nodes unable to be attacked and since players do not build structures, big ships are of less of a combat issue since it's far harder to project force with them. Am I wrong based on what we know? We know gently caress all about how the economy will work in practice, and nodes/stations will be conquerable out in lawless frontier space. Thing with EvE is that alliance level big money comes from passive moon mining, which is done by static towers. Sieging these towers forces fights where running away is not an option if you want to actually have alliance level income. But these is no way to know whether these big static conflict drivers will be the be all and end all of big alliances. Might be that you need to hold as many as possible if you want to be relevant, might be that it's entirely optional and you can live just fine without owning one. I suspect a lot of "territorial ownership" will be decidedly more local. And holding the big stuff more a question of utility/convenience than power projection. If someone finds a decent vein of unobtanium in some asteroid field, plunking down a capital or five could be very helpful in keeping everyone else away. While at the same time providing repair/rearm and storage. But we really know very little about the specifics of the PU instancing/economy or metagame, and everything people will tell you is several layers of presumption and conjecture. 
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Jun 20, 2014 23:40
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I don't want to come off as obtuse, but in a sandbox game (which SC purports to be), how does one "win" as a part of the "pay2win" formula? Are we discussing the micro scale of individual battles/conflicts, where one could pay real money for more ships/missiles/toilets than the competition, or something else? It feels like all this money spent is to skip grinding (although I wonder what advantage people with both tone and money have), which is temporary power, not permanent power. If you can make an analogy to world of warcraft (the only mmo I've ever played), I'm sure that I'd get it.
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Jun 20, 2014 23:42
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Marathanes posted:The Xi'an Scout is definitely a 2 person ship with pilot and co-pilot seats. Wow, somehow I totally missed that picture before when looking through them. Thanks!
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Jun 20, 2014 23:43
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Drewjitsu posted:I don't want to come off as obtuse, but in a sandbox game (which SC purports to be), how does one "win" as a part of the "pay2win" formula? Are we discussing the micro scale of individual battles/conflicts, where one could pay real money for more ships/missiles/toilets than the competition, or something else? It feels like all this money spent is to skip grinding (although I wonder what advantage people with both tone and money have), which is temporary power, not permanent power. this all hinges on how much of a metagame there is, like win via being the most dominant faction controlling vital economic sectors and being able to pull in huge amounts of money for raising larger fleets to project force against opposing factions' territory and what not if it's never going to be more than an arena shooter, i guess your kdr will be better and your bank account/relationships will be strained no matter what
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Jun 20, 2014 23:47
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Drewjitsu posted:If you can make an analogy to world of warcraft (the only mmo I've ever played), I'm sure that I'd get it. Star Citizen is pay 2 win in the same way that the ability to boost a character to level 90 coming in Warlords is, if you had to pay a different cost depending on how many levels you were skipping. It allows you to skip the part of the gameplay where you are playing just to reach the point where you can play how you wish to. However, any player can reach the exact same place simply by playing the game--just perhaps not as quickly. However, just as a character leveled properly in WoW would have the benefit of building out experience playing their class well, tradeskills, reputations, and the like as they level that a boosted character would not, someone starting out in a Constellation or an Idris won't have the same skills developed, and won't receive the benefits of things like reputation gains that someone who played the game to earn the credits would--so it probably breaks out to be about even, in the end.
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Jun 20, 2014 23:50
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Oh cool more screenshots of the anime spae sheep: Speaking entirely sincerely, I think it looks pretty silly
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Jun 21, 2014 00:23
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BULBASAUR posted:Oh cool more screenshots of the anime spae sheep: You KNOW there should be a Chris Roberts bobblehead astride that dashboard
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Jun 21, 2014 00:51
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Octopode posted:Star Citizen is pay 2 win in the same way that the ability to boost a character to level 90 coming in Warlords is, if you had to pay a different cost depending on how many levels you were skipping. It allows you to skip the part of the gameplay where you are playing just to reach the point where you can play how you wish to. However, any player can reach the exact same place simply by playing the game--just perhaps not as quickly. How do you get lifetime insurance on ships in the game?
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Jun 21, 2014 01:07
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Stealth Like posted:How do you get lifetime insurance on ships in the game?
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Jun 21, 2014 01:09
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Ardlen posted:You pay a small amount of UEC every few months. Wait that enables lifetime insurance on the ship? Or does that just insure the ship as long as you keep paying?
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Jun 21, 2014 01:11
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Stealth Like posted:How do you get lifetime insurance on ships in the game? Lifetime insurance was something that was available to early backers. It's mostly meaningless.
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Jun 21, 2014 01:24
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Eldragon posted:Lifetime insurance was something that was available to early backers. It's mostly meaningless. Oh, did they get rid of it from new ship purchases? I honestly do not know.
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Jun 21, 2014 01:27
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Stealth Like posted:Oh, did they get rid of it from new ship purchases? I honestly do not know. Yep, new ship purchases do not have it. Buying insurance is one of the money sinks in the PU. And only applies to the base hull. To compare it to World of Warcraft, its like getting your low level equipment repaired for free.
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Jun 21, 2014 01:29
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 if you think getting hit in an engine is going to loving do anything other than -speed or -turnrate debuff
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Jun 21, 2014 01:33
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Decrepus posted:
Umm it already does in the alpha that's out dipshit
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Jun 21, 2014 01:49
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