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Harime Nui posted:Explosions and sound and fighter dogfights in space are departures from reality we accept because they're cool. They also follow an internal logic: fighter battles in Star Wars resemble dogfights from WWII with formations, looping maneuvers to get on the other guy's six, etc. A hand falling through a planet's atmosphere and not burning up is just straight up calvinballing so you can tell your stupid story your way. They are not at all the same thing: your uncritical acceptance is as bad as the worst Wookiepedian sperging about TIE fighter engine loadouts and would let the writers off the hook for lazy bullshit. It's pretty cool that your opinion about a Star Wars movie that hasn't even come out yet is correct and non-spergy, and an opinion you disagree with is incorrect and also spergy. Really very convenient.
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Jul 21, 2014 22:07
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I said "as bad," not "as spergy." Please do not misconstrue my argument, Benedick Cuckold e: Also I haven't even guessed as to what the final movie will be like. I read a small possible-spoiler about the opening and said it sounds monumentally stupid. There are many monumentally stupid things in, say, Star Trek 09 but it's still a fun well-made movie. ee: Also I might as well point out, ST09 gets away with its biggest plot hole (there's no reason for Spock to have been marooned on the same world Kirk gets marooned on) because it's jammed between the second and third act in a fast-paced story and the film (cleverly) doesn't give you time to go "hey waitaminute." We're talking about the very opening of Star Wars VII here. No prior momentum to paste over the stupid. Harime Nui fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Jul 21, 2014 |
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Jul 21, 2014 22:09
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My mistake, Harime Nui. For the record, I, too, think a severed hand floating through space and falling through the atmosphere of a planet relatively unscathed is pretty dumb. I just don't think we need to go so far as to compare people here to Wookieepedians. There's no need for that kind of language.
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Jul 21, 2014 22:14
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I remember hearing that Carrie Fisher insisted on donning the Jabba Palace slave outfit at least once in the film. Does anyone know if she got in shape for this? I guess I could just cover my eyes.
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Jul 21, 2014 22:17
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Harime Nui posted:If you hinge the entire premise of your movie on some wacky bullshit that violates the laws of the universe as we know it, you had drat well better explain it. The explanation is its a movie set in a fictional world that is not real or realistic. That is, if this leaked info is legit. I can't imagine that it is.
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Jul 21, 2014 22:19
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Yes, I know it's a made up not-real movie. More importantly it's a story, and it's a bad storyteller who provokes natural questions and then goes "well, just because." You can get irritated when a movie throws some old bullshit at you without being a fun-hating poindexter. e: I agree it probably isn't even true, but I'm speaking broadly because it's a trend I've noticed in this forum that people use terms like tactical realism and wookiepedian as band-aids for lazy or poorly communicated storytelling Harime Nui fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Jul 21, 2014 |
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Jul 21, 2014 22:25
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FYTc55nGEI
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Jul 21, 2014 22:33
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Harime Nui posted:More importantly it's a story, and it's a bad storyteller who provokes natural questions and then goes "well, just because." You can get irritated when a movie throws some old bullshit at you without being a fun-hating poindexter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1WSD_cnRbA quote:e: I agree it probably isn't even true, but I'm speaking broadly because it's a trend I've noticed in this forum that people use terms like tactical realism and wookiepedian as band-aids for lazy or poorly communicated storytelling That opening would be good at communicating that the movie is not set in a real or realistic world.
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Jul 21, 2014 22:38
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I hope the hand slaps the main character in the face as it falls to the ground with a whacky sound effect
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Jul 21, 2014 22:38
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zVxTeflon posted:I hope the hand slaps the main character in the face as it falls to the ground with a whacky sound effect Sam Raimi is only directing Episode Nine.
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Jul 21, 2014 22:39
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Star Wars: Hand-Shaped Spaceships
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Jul 21, 2014 22:43
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That's a good monologue but not really what I was talking about. In the films that he listed that I've seen, none of those questions are implicit or obviously provoked by the film ("why is E.T. brown?") Star Trek gets away with having a gap in its backstory because it doesn't encourage you to stop and think about it. A good storyteller knows how to direct an audience's attention. That's why in an expertly paced film like Aliens, we don't stop and wonder why the Company only sends a platoon of marines in a ship obviously built for far more. It's easy to beat on inarticulate nerds when they try to pick apart a movie, but often what that means is the movie failed to keep their attention, failed to be entertaining. Storytelling is basically selling a lie: the best lies don't get bogged down in a lot of naggly details but they don't provoke further questioning either.
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Jul 21, 2014 22:58
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Cardboard Box A posted:Star Wars: Hand-Shaped Spaceships Wrong "Star" movie.
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Jul 21, 2014 23:11
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I knew what this was going to be before I even read all of your post.  Fuckin' masterpiece.
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Jul 21, 2014 23:17
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Red posted:Please, God, let this be the last post about the science of a hand floating in space. I wasn't even referring to a hand floating in space, what the gently caress are you talking about dude?
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Jul 21, 2014 23:23
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Harime Nui posted:That's a good monologue but not really what I was talking about. In the films that he listed that I've seen, none of those questions are implicit or obviously provoked by the film ("why is E.T. brown?") Star Trek gets away with having a gap in its backstory because it doesn't encourage you to stop and think about it. I haven't said anything about "inarticulate nerds". But as for that trend you're referring to, holding fictional stories to these standards of reality is silly and fruitless because it means holding them to a standard they can never really meet; fiction is fundamentally not real. Criticizing a piece of fantasy fiction by cataloguing its many lapses in realism is as foolish as criticizing Michelangelo's David by listing its many failures as a watercolor painting. In both cases the work fails in so many ways at being what the critic wants it to be because it is entirely not that at all. A lie will never be true. If a viewer is simultaneously wanting to accept a film's lie and looking for reasons not to that their own confusion, not a flaw of the film. Instead of trying to accept a lie as truth you can just accept that fiction is fictional. Anyway, what you're saying there now doesn't seem relevant to the supposed leak. We don't know how that sequence would be paced in the actual film, but the way its described it sounds like the movie just runs with it and doesn't encourage the audience to stop and think about it. Lord Krangdar fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Jul 21, 2014 |
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Jul 21, 2014 23:32
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Cardboard Box A posted:Star Wars: Hand-Shaped Spaceships Can't believe nobody posted this.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQduN315etk
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Jul 21, 2014 23:43
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Disney must have seen my Addams Family/Star Wars crossover fic.
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Jul 21, 2014 23:46
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If you play it right you could do the hand falling from space in a non-stupid way. Just have it fall inside some kind of spaceship debris that burns up around the hand and as it lands the hand is tossed out of the burning debris. The landing debris is what causes the youngsters to go out and search what has happened. Ads a little more plausibility to the situation even if it's still outlandish and far-fetched.
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Jul 22, 2014 00:22
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the hand comes into focus. it is jar-jars. it extends a middle finger. cue credits
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Jul 22, 2014 00:51
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zVxTeflon posted:the hand comes into focus. it is jar-jars. it extends a middle finger. cue credits Jar-jar also emerges from the wreckage, reattaches his hand, and proceeds to walk like this around various Star Wars locales for the next two hours. Score by Danny Elfman.
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Jul 22, 2014 01:27
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zVxTeflon posted:the hand comes into focus. it is jar-jars. it extends a middle finger. cue credits It's Jar Jar's hand allright, still attached to his arm. But the arm has been shoved up his rear end. Jar Jar's final scream of pain and horror frozen forever because he was kicked out an airlock, condemned to be floating forever in space. Audience cheers, voted best Star Wars film ever.
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Jul 22, 2014 01:37
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If Empire Strikes Back were coming out today, advance nerd reaction would be devastating. 'Luke spends half the film alone in a swamp with a funny-talking handpuppet??'
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Jul 22, 2014 02:32
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:If Empire Strikes Back were coming out today, advance nerd reaction would be devastating. 'A snow planet? Way to be original, Lucas.  '
Cross-Section fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Jul 22, 2014 |
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Jul 22, 2014 02:44
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:If Empire Strikes Back were coming out today, advance nerd reaction would be devastating. Let's be clear: at the time, people did say that. The universal acclaim for ESB didn't gel until later.
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Jul 22, 2014 03:38
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Madurai posted:Let's be clear: at the time, people did say that. The universal acclaim for ESB didn't gel until later. Exactly. Of the Star Wars films that exist, Empire is easily the least 'Star-warsy' - moreso than any of the prequels. For example: a large chunk of the plot involves sentient buildings, and sentient vehicles. This is never brought up again. The trippy vision quest scene? Nothing surreal like that will ever happen again, in the entire series. Moreover, the basic approach to the Force is quite different. You have the introduction of telekinesis, and the theme of animism that courses through the whole thing. In Empire, everything is alive - from a ships to caves. A New Hope, on the other hand, takes place almost-entirely in barren deserts and the void of space. It's the difference between saying everything is magical and saying everything is poo poo. This has lead to a situation where the vocal majority of Star Wars fans really don't like Star Wars very much. In this thread, for example, compare the amount of hate for the prequels to the amount of praise for Empire. Nobody is willing or able to articulate what is actually good about Star Wars. People fixate on how the prequels aren't Star Wars, but 'Star Wars' - as they define it - never existed.
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Jul 22, 2014 04:45
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Star Wars: Handjob talk
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Jul 22, 2014 05:39
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I'm pretty sure people complained about realism in many old movies. There's the "Rosebud" thing from Citizen Kane, or the dangling chains on the Nostromo in Alien. Over the years, their complaints eventually gets drowned out.jeeves posted:Star Wars: Handjob talk Star Wars Episode VII: Cold Hand of Luke: Skywalker Eat The Eggs.
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Jul 22, 2014 05:45
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Star Wars: Episode VII:
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Jul 22, 2014 06:57
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Cross-Section posted:Star Wars: Episode VII:  Please no
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Jul 22, 2014 07:14
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:a large chunk of the plot involves sentient buildings, and sentient vehicles. I don't recall a single sentient vehicle or building in ESB. Are you referring to the vision-cave on Dagobah? That's the closest thing I can think of.
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Jul 22, 2014 07:18
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jivjov posted:I don't recall a single sentient vehicle or building in ESB. Are you referring to the vision-cave on Dagobah? That's the closest thing I can think of. Hes talking about the line were C3PO tells R2D2 not to trust strange computers (cloud city) and when he said he doesnt know how to communicate with the millennium falcon. So yeah 2 lines = huge chink of the plot 
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Jul 22, 2014 07:24
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zVxTeflon posted:Hes talking about the line were C3PO tells R2D2 not to trust strange computers (cloud city) and when he said he doesnt know how to communicate with the millennium falcon. So yeah 2 lines = huge chink of the plot I think he has a decent point. A surprisingly large part of the plot does hinge on these systems and R2 talking to them, even if it doesn't come up much in dialog.
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Jul 22, 2014 07:42
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Luminous beings, etc. I'm almost finished with Clone Wars. It's good and everybody who likes Star Wars should watch it. Not every episode is a winner, but it reinforces and remains faithful to the prequels while addressing the formal issues that turned audiences against them. Most importantly, it actually reveals Anakin's feelings, his growing frustration and doubt towards the Jedi and the Republic, and every disillusioning event that convinces him "The Jedi are evil" except the very last one. Large parts of it read like propaganda pieces from the perspective of the eventual villains, the weak rationalizations that let the "guardians of peace and justice" live with their hypocrisy. I'd call it basically a good version of Attack of the Clones.
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Jul 22, 2014 07:50
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zVxTeflon posted:Hes talking about the line were C3PO tells R2D2 not to trust strange computers (cloud city) and when he said he doesnt know how to communicate with the millennium falcon. So yeah 2 lines = huge chink of the plot Han and the gang spend the entire film trying to fix the Millenium Falcon's hyperdrive. The fact that R2D2 fixes the Falcon by 'talking to it' is fairly important. Also, the entire end of the film takes place on Cloud City and there's a whole hacking thing going on with the Empire taking control of the security system, and then R2 hacking in to the central computer. The central computer is hooked up directly to that bald dude - it's the same kind of imagery that appears in Elysium.
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Jul 22, 2014 07:56
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Please address Lobot by his Christian name. He definitely embodies some of the creepier aspects of the SW universe's cyborg technology though. He's pretty much a slave who got plugged into Cloud City to do IT for them. But it's ok because he finds the work really fulfilling.
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Jul 22, 2014 10:02
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Harime Nui posted:Explosions and sound and fighter dogfights in space are departures from reality we accept because they're cool. They also follow an internal logic: fighter battles in Star Wars resemble dogfights from WWII with formations, looping maneuvers to get on the other guy's six, etc. A hand falling through a planet's atmosphere and not burning up is just straight up calvinballing so you can tell your stupid story your way. They are not at all the same thing: your uncritical acceptance is as bad as the worst Wookiepedian sperging about TIE fighter engine loadouts and would let the writers off the hook for lazy bullshit. Basically the whole argument devolves to "well as long as it looks cool then who cares". I'm not letting them off the hook for 'lazy bullshit' because I really don't see how it's lazy bullshit. It's a neat visual. On the one hand (fnar) you can't argue that something, no matter how wacky, is allowed in there because it just looks good, while suddenly calling out something that you don't think will look good enough. For me it simply exists in the same realm of lightsabres and magical space wizards (Who are allowed, because they're cool). The worst thing is that I don't even like Star Wars that much, which is probably why I can easily detach myself from the whole argument. I just thought it was a novel way to open the movie and subverts expectations.
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Jul 22, 2014 10:02
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I couldn't care less about the hand not buring up while entering the atmosphere. What bothers me is that the hand apparently lands on the planet without going splat and leaving pulverized bones and skin tissue all over the place.
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Jul 22, 2014 10:29
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Grendels Dad posted:I couldn't care less about the hand not buring up while entering the atmosphere. What bothers me is that the hand apparently lands on the planet without going splat and leaving pulverized bones and skin tissue all over the place.
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Jul 22, 2014 10:38
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Han and the gang spend the entire film trying to fix the Millenium Falcon's hyperdrive. The fact that R2D2 fixes the Falcon by 'talking to it' is fairly important. I have always took that as (even from the age of 10) computer languages. You know it makes sense that walking computers talk computer language and R2 D2 is programmed to understand some and not all. R2 simply spoke to it by programming, its not a stretch, I 'talk' to my computers every day at work, but not in a 'Hi how are you' kind of way.
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Jul 22, 2014 10:57
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