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Turtlicious posted:Yeah this is annoying, or even just being able to say "Kenny stop, Jane is pulling something." The weakness in the series is not being able to tell Kenny Jane's plan or being able to fire the gun during the fight sequence. Clem doesn't know Jane's plan.
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Sep 1, 2014 23:54
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I shot Kenny and forgave Jane and feel really bad about it, especially after seeing the Wellington endings (particularly when you choose to stay there.) I just felt like Kenny was too far gone and needed/wanted to be put down. Jane came back to save the group and I'd convinced her to try and save Sarah while putting her life at risk, so I trusted her. I forgave her because...I don't know why. I wish they would have given you the option to go to Wellington with Jane instead of automatically back to Howe's, which is a bad idea. Anyway, I'm sorry Kenny  Was there a more useless decision in this season outside of choosing whether to take/not take the nail file? That one felt particularly egregious as far as the binary decisions go.
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Sep 1, 2014 23:56
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Turtlicious posted:Yeah this is annoying, or even just being able to say "Kenny stop, Jane is pulling something." The weakness in the series is not being able to tell Kenny Jane's plan or being able to fire the gun during the fight sequence. One of the choices you can make for conversation after Jane claims 'it was an accident' is to tell Kenny to 'let her speak!' to which he replies "I'm done talkin'!" Does that sound like someone who is going to listen to anything in particular you have to say to try and stop him attacking someone? el oso posted:Was there a more useless decision in this season outside of choosing whether to take/not take the nail file? That one felt particularly egregious as far as the binary decisions go. You think the final decision was useless? I mean, it probably won't affect much of anything going forward in Season 3 but it rather jarringly changes the ending of this season. JawKnee fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Sep 1, 2014 |
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Sep 1, 2014 23:57
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JawKnee posted:Does that sound like someone who is going to listen to anything in particular you have to say to try and stop him attacking someone? If it pertains to the baby yes.
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Sep 1, 2014 23:58
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Blazing Ownager posted:Yeah she might have passed out, pretty much. If you don't do anything for about 5 seconds she kicks him in the balls and then starts punching his bad eye, which realistically is far, far more likely to kill someone with that kind of injury. Welp, shouldn't have tried to engage. Shoot Kenny, leave Jane behind every time. Given that all the season 2 characters are crazy or dead (AJ's craziness unconfirmed at this stage) it's the thematically appropriate way for Clem to reject the whole season.
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Sep 1, 2014 23:59
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Yardbomb posted:If it pertains to the baby yes. Listening to Jane's explanation would pertain to the baby
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Sep 2, 2014 00:00
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JawKnee posted:
I was talking about the decision to take or not take the nail file from Jane.
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Sep 2, 2014 00:04
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el oso posted:I was talking about the decision to take or not take the nail file from Jane. Oh, well in that case the decision to show Sarah how to use the gun was pretty useless
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Sep 2, 2014 00:10
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JawKnee posted:Oh, well in that case the decision to show Sarah how to use the gun was pretty useless Good call - is here any payoff to that decision at all?
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Sep 2, 2014 00:14
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el oso posted:Good call - is here any payoff to that decision at all? No, Sarah never gets to use one as far as I know.
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Sep 2, 2014 00:14
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Darkrenown posted:Because I think most people would conclude it is justified against someone who just killed your child It isn't, which is why we prosecute vigilantism. Self-defence is fine. Defence of others is fine. What Kenny does is neither of those things. quote:You are aware that where to draw the line is probably the single biggest running theme in the entire franchise, right? There's no justice, no courts, no civilization any more. The world is now a violent place. Often people that take your view are morally superior to the end. People remember them fondly, even, because they rarely make it a month. People really need to realize that in a post-apocalyptic world, all of society - including it's rules - are pretty much crumbling to dust. It's a story. It's not real. It's a canvas on which we can play out our ideas and perspectives. One of the perspectives being played out is that it's actually totally okay and cool to hit people sometimes, even if it turns out the thing you thought they did wrong didn't actually happen (in which case it's their fault for not doing enough to correct you, not yours for killing some unjustifiably).
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Sep 2, 2014 00:15
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el oso posted:Good call - is here any payoff to that decision at all? Other than the fact you get to pretend that you're Leementine for a bit of nostalgia, no. Although, seeing Clem respond with Lee's answers to some of Sarah's questions, and then not being able to explain them because she herself didn't understand is interesting!
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Sep 2, 2014 00:15
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Lt. Danger posted:What does violence in this situation accomplish? If you want to take the somewhat new-age literary analysis standpoint that writing is to be judged based on its ability to articulate complex motifs to a wide array of people, across cultures and experience, then your interpretation is perfectly fine because the situation made a powerful statement to you about how violence is or is not acceptable. But in this case, your experience is no more or less valid than anyone else's, and this self-righteous nonsense you keep spewing about how there's something WRONG with other people because they don't see Kenny as an abusive monster. The situation illustrated different motifs to them and you have no more right to criticize that then you do to criticize their taste in clothing. Which means you're still completely in the wrong for acting like a complete knob about your preferred interpretation. So which is it? Do you have some backing for what you're saying, like the backing you often try to find in your more formal work, or are you getting judgmental with half the self-awareness of the other arguers in the thread? Coolguye fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Sep 2, 2014 |
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Sep 2, 2014 00:26
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BMS posted:Other than the fact you get to pretend that you're Leementine for a bit of nostalgia, no. Although, seeing Clem respond with Lee's answers to some of Sarah's questions, and then not being able to explain them because she herself didn't understand is interesting! Also it sets up in the player's mind the idea that you can somehow prepare Sarah for what is coming, that she might have growth as a character and prove her father wrong when he thought she couldn't handle the reality of the new world. That this all falls apart and that she completely breaks down isn't particularly satisfying from either a character or narrative standpoint, but it is probably a fairly realistic take on things. It does mean her character kind of gets used as a prop in the Clem/Jane relationship though. Sarah is basically what Jane's sister was like, while Clem is what Jane wanted her sister to be like: basically a younger version of herself that she could safely open herself up to without constantly having to worry about being dragged down by her inability to cope.
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Sep 2, 2014 00:30
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Lt. Danger posted:It isn't, which is why we prosecute vigilantism. THIS IS.. AFTER THE.. FALL OF.. CIVILIZATION Seriously though, you keep acting like you can just turn these people over to the courts and if that fails, shrug and go "Oh well, nothing I can do then." Vigilantism is all that's left in this scenario, man.
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Sep 2, 2014 00:31
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Coolguye posted:That cuts both ways with both combatants renewing their attack as Clem restrains the other, which is possible on multiple, multiple occasions. But again, this presumes that the last 30 minutes of gameplay were coherent thoughts and threads capable of yielding coherent motifs and themes. They were not. This has only been reinforced as people uncover creative assets that show the ending was haphazardly changed late in the production cycle, meaning that the ending is bizarre for the same reason as countless other games with strong storylines that fell flat on their faces. Under normal circumstances I wouldn't take someone to task so hard about this, but you've outright made a 'thing' about your literary analysis in the Let's Plays you've done (and continue to do!), so it stands out quite a bit that you are acting so self-righteous about insisting upon the supremacy of a motif that isn't well formed by definition due to the very clear issues with the writing, and arguably doesn't even exist due to total lack of writer intent. I have very serious doubts that there exists a writer interview where they talk about how the final conflict is illustrating the acceptability of violence absent societal constructs. Or with societal constructs, for that matter. By the traditional school of thought in literary analysis, the only valid motifs and themes are exactly the ones the writers intended. So essentially, until you can support your assertions with concrete details from the writers that Being Kenny is an escalation of a conflict, you don't have a leg to stand on, and neither does anyone else. lol
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Sep 2, 2014 00:32
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Excusing what Jane did is excusing deceptive provocations to violence, so not only does that basically makes you Nazi Germany when it invaded Poland it also turns a baby into a radio station.
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Sep 2, 2014 00:32
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This arguing wont matter when Season 3 is released and we start playing as Mike right as Clem is killed by Arvo's bullet and we have to live with the fact that a little girl died because of our actions.
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Sep 2, 2014 00:43
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:This arguing wont matter when Season 3 is released and we start playing as Mike right as Clem is killed by Arvo's bullet and we have to live with the fact that a little girl died because of our actions. Kenny and Jane have a season of grief sex where we constantly have to mash Q to climax and hit E to burst into tears.
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Sep 2, 2014 00:46
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Junkfist posted:Kenny and Jane have a season of grief sex where we constantly have to mash Q to climax and hit E to burst into tears. I think this was in one of those jap fap games.
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Sep 2, 2014 00:51
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Junkfist posted:Kenny and Jane have a season of grief sex where we constantly have to mash Q to climax and hit E to burst into tears. Y - [...] X - "I miss Katjaa" B - "I Miss Lee" A - "I miss "Clem"
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Sep 2, 2014 00:54
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Lt. Danger posted:It isn't, which is why we prosecute vigilantism. So you're saying Kenny should have just called the cops on her at the end there? Because I hate to break it to you, but I don't think they'd respond. It's not a court case, there are no courts, there is no law in the walking dead's world. I wasn't saying revenge-killing is legal, I said I thought most people would consider it justified. Although in a legal sense you might well be able to use a temporary insanity plea to get let off, or a provocation defense to get a reduced charge or sentence. And you still didn't reply to the "Jane definitely killed AJ and is now mocking Kenny about it" hypothetical, so I'm still curious if you genuinely think there's no level of provocation that allows for a violent response in your opinion, because if so it sounds like your are either a robot or divinely patient and forgiving - either case is pretty neat, but it's unlikely most people will share your standards.
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Sep 2, 2014 01:00
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Honestly it is kinda in defense of Clem, Jane left her sister behind, she then did/wanted to leave Sarah behind, she then appeared to have left a baby behind. This is not a person that should be trusted around Clem.
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Sep 2, 2014 01:12
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Blazing Ownager posted:But why I killed them, flat out, was I didn't want this to happen to the next unsuspecting group. Plus, they knew where my group lived and if they survived, we'd have to pack up and leave or face inevitable payback from them and the gang working with them. This is pretty much exactly why I shot Kenny. If Clem and Jane had gone up to Kenny and said, "Hey we're leaving, with or without the baby." You honestly think he would have been okay with it? Personally I didn't think so, and not just because people started saying he was crazy. Really though for as contrived as some of the elements of that choice are, I have to give it to Telltale for the thematic consistency of the Kenny/Jane thing. Boiled down to it's most basic, that choice is one of agency. Do you take the only means given to you to assert your will and end the fight, or do you defer to the "adults" by looking away and letting them settle it for themselves? The Kenny endings are very much about Kenny getting what he wants, and at Wellington he finally gets his chance to be the hero. (he's just so creepily giddy racing up that hill after having murdered someone!) With the Jane endings all decisions rest on Clem. You control the conversation with the family and get to decide whether to let them in, which stands in contrast to Kenny taking the conversational lead and pleading his case to the woman at Wellington. And it all ties together into a neat little thematic bow when you think about the personalities of both characters as they've been shown throughout the season. I thought that whole part was cool and really well done.
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Sep 2, 2014 01:15
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CardinalBiggles posted:This is pretty much exactly why I shot Kenny. If Clem and Jane had gone up to Kenny and said, "Hey we're leaving, with or without the baby." You honestly think he would have been okay with it? Personally I didn't think so, and not just because people started saying he was crazy. It's 9 days later he's running up the hill. I don't think anyone grieved that long in TWD. I mean Sarah didn't even get a mention when she ate it.
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Sep 2, 2014 01:24
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socialsecurity posted:Clem doesn't know Jane's plan. Doesn't matter. It's obvious she's pulling some poo poo. I admit I'd reached the "had it with this poo poo" point with the group after getting shot, but I figured whatever it was.. it was going to be stupid. Was not disappointed. Also she JUST DITCHED CLEM 5 MINUTES AGO IN A ZOMBIE FILLED BLIZZARD to enact this plan. She might not have been psycho, though, the more I think about it. Just stupid. The girl who ate glass all grown up. I half wonder if that story was put in there to explain Jane is actually dumb as poo poo outside of survival instinct. Sure would match up with the ending. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Sep 2, 2014 |
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Sep 2, 2014 01:26
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ThisIsACoolGuy posted:It's 9 days later he's running up the hill. I don't think anyone grieved that long in TWD. I mean Sarah didn't even get a mention when she ate it. Fair enough. It still doesn't change that the reason he's so giddy is that he's finally getting what he wants, in full control and free of dissenting opinion. Also he's a psycho. Junkfist posted:Excusing what Jane did is excusing deceptive provocations to violence, so not only does that basically makes you Nazi Germany when it invaded Poland it also turns a baby into a radio station. Basically what I'm getting at is anyone who sides with Kenny hates Freedom 
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Sep 2, 2014 01:42
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Anyone who sides with kenny is susceptible to being a victim of abuse. Anyone who sides with Jane is susceptible to being manipulated. At least I ain't a bitch who would [look away]
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Sep 2, 2014 01:45
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Turtlicious posted:Anyone who sides with kenny is susceptible to being a victim of abuse. Anyone who sides with Jane is susceptible to being manipulated. When I think about it I ended up following Jane's advice: "When things start to go south, don't let them drag you down". Killing Kenny and leaving Jane was the right choice.
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Sep 2, 2014 01:52
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Turtlicious posted:At least I ain't a bitch who would [look away] Hey, if there was a [Blast Jane] or [Cheer Kenny On] option I would've taken it. 
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Sep 2, 2014 02:02
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Turtlicious posted:Anyone who sides with kenny is susceptible to being a victim of abuse. Anyone who sides with Jane is susceptible to being manipulated. Who [looks away]? Let the timer tick down while you stare into Jane's eyes.
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Sep 2, 2014 02:02
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Darkrenown posted:Who [looks away]? Let the timer tick down while you stare into Jane's eyes. Just like a bitch to sit there racked with indecision. True men take life into their own hands. [shoot kenny] for life
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Sep 2, 2014 02:14
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"Just like last time...Just like Kenny showed me."
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Sep 2, 2014 02:18
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Sarah is sick of Carver's poo poo.
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Sep 2, 2014 03:14
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Did anyone else let Jane die and then shoot Kenny? The stats said I was in the minority for being alone at the end, but honestly I felt like Jane was CRAZY untrustworthy since she'd spent the entire season talking about leaving people behind (so I believed that she'd just ditched the baby) and Kenny just deserved the peace of being dead, as evidenced by how exhausted he sounds when you choose to shoot him and he goes, "Just do it."
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Sep 2, 2014 03:56
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Junkfist posted:Excusing what Jane did is excusing deceptive provocations to violence, so not only does that basically makes you Nazi Germany when it invaded Poland it also turns a baby into a radio station. Siding with Kenny means order and stability with strict rules from an authoritarian figure that must be followed and the group is above the individual even if it hurts said individual aka the LAW ending. Siding with Jane means a world where the strong do what they want because they can and your only limit is how strong you are aka the CHAOS ending Leaving them both means a mix between the two extremes, where clem can care for others and still retain her freedom aka the NEUTRAL ending This season was really a shin megami tensei game in disguise.
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Sep 2, 2014 04:09
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That is kind of where I thought season one was going. I assumed you'd have to chose between Kenny, Lily, or yourself before I actually beat season one.
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Sep 2, 2014 04:11
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Blazing Ownager posted:THIS IS.. AFTER THE.. FALL OF.. CIVILIZATION This argument could be used to justify the behavior of Arvo and his Russian crew, which is what tells me it's a really lovely argument. The fall of civilization does not inherently mean that the world is a free-for-all. It doesn't mean that it's suddenly okay to be a vigilante/revenge killer, or to steal, or to torture, or to etc. It does mean that practical options are more limited, and it does mean that conditions will push many people to engage in such behaviors, but it doesn't make them any less immoral or unjust.
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Sep 2, 2014 06:05
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Between nations the world is a free for all. And the population of "nations" in Walking Dead feels like it's gone from however many million to around an average of five. Sometimes fewer. Sometimes one. These nations can't troll you if they're dead.
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Sep 2, 2014 06:43
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Since when is pulling a knife in self-defense "escalating a fight?" Pretend Jane doesn't pull that knife. She gets Arvo'd and probably worse.
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Sep 2, 2014 06:43
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