|
It's not obliviousness, Jenna Coleman's beauty is immediately apparent. Whoever said it comes across more like the doctor pulling her pigtails is spot on. The joke is that we all know she's pretty, but the doctor thinks she's a bit ugly, isn't he a kidder. Obliviousness is more like how Tennant was with Martha, Capaldi is giving Clara a handful of put-downs based on her physical appearance per episode.
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 20:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 1, 2024 03:42 |
|
|
I've sort of read this as Twelve's lovely way of dealing with the fact that he both realizes why he shouldn't be and still is attracted to Clara. That he's insulting her for his own benefit, trying to make it clear that he's totally not interested.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 20:36
|
|
|
Why on earth would any of you guys want Blake's 7 remade anyway? You do realize that they'd ruin it, right? Be grateful for the two great and two okay seasons you got out of it which had consistent tone and characters, things that would never survive in a modern revival.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 20:39
|
|
|
Eh, I just chalk it up to Twelve just being a massive dick sometimes. An immature, mean-spirited, stubborn rear end in a top hat who will eventually Learn To Love over time. Actually that sounds a bit familiar...
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 20:42
|
|
|
Cliff Racer posted:Why on earth would any of you guys want Blake's 7 remade anyway? You do realize that they'd ruin it, right? Be grateful for the two great and two okay seasons you got out of it which had consistent tone and characters, things that would never survive in a modern revival. Big Finish brought it back and their first series was amazing. So just leave it to Big Finish.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 20:44
|
|
|
HD DAD posted:Eh, I just chalk it up to Twelve just being a massive dick sometimes. An immature, mean-spirited, stubborn rear end in a top hat who will eventually Learn To Love over time. I WANT TO BELIEVE
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 20:49
|
|
|
Whenever Strax confuses Clara for a boy I get really mad.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 20:50
|
|
|
Irish Joe posted:I am routinely triggered by Doctor Who. Cliff Racer posted:Sorry it triggers you all. I don't mean to come off as a Tumblr-ite or anything. I mainly wanted to express discomfort with those jokes without calling Capaldi a trash Doctor (which the other couple complaints seemed to do). I guess I emphasized it wrong, but I think Capaldi is awesome, grumpy Capaldi especially (he totally carried that Robin Hood episode, just by being a huge grump and hating on everyone). I just don't like that joke specifically... and it's been in every episode so far. Davros1 posted:Remember, this is the same person who when instructed by his robot dog to let his companion make inquiries of the locals because "she is more attractive", he response was a befuddled "She is?" nuzak posted:It's not obliviousness, Jenna Coleman's beauty is immediately apparent. Whoever said it comes across more like the doctor pulling her pigtails is spot on. The joke is that we all know she's pretty, but the doctor thinks she's a bit ugly, isn't he a kidder. Obliviousness is more like how Tennant was with Martha, Capaldi is giving Clara a handful of put-downs based on her physical appearance per episode.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 21:02
|
|
|
Sinestro posted:That he's insulting her for his own benefit, trying to make it clear that he's totally not interested. Tsundere Doctor-kun. Silly girl! It's not that I like you or anything! I dunno. This episode wasn't the worst Doctor Who that I've ever watched, because I didn't even finish that one Christmas special. But I'd put it only just above that and probably below Fear Her (which I at least paid attention to.) Didn't we already see the end of the universe in Utopia? I'm ambivalent toward Clara, but I don't know if I want enough details about the companions relationships to the detail that we watch them go on bad dates. It's, I don't know, not that kind of show to me. This episode felt like I marvelled at Capaldi's acting chops while waiting for it to end.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 21:03
|
|
|
Twelve is kind of a gently caress up so far, isn't he? He feels like he gets things wrong more than most of his incarnations, and just backs it up with rudeness and being oblivious to what's going on around him. Mind you, I like this approach. He's trying so hard to be something, but he's stumbling a lot.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 21:09
|
|
|
Rewatching the episode and I get the feeling that whoever said that the potential conversation had by the Doctor and the creatures at the end of the universe may become important later on is probably spot on.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 21:10
|
|
|
HD DAD posted:Twelve is kind of a gently caress up so far, isn't he? He feels like he gets things wrong more than most of his incarnations, and just backs it up with rudeness and being oblivious to what's going on around him. That's how he came off in this and in the last (both Bad Episodes) First two he came off better. The next episode looks it might be more like those.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 21:18
|
|
|
marktheando posted:Yeah it just comes across as being a dick for no reason, rather than Tom Baker style obliviousness. Yeah, basically this. They're writing it like "He's just a buddy raggin on his friend about her looks when she obviously looks great and is doing it a little too much because he's an alien childman" but it just comes off as sort of mean and off-putting in a not-fun way. e: Again, I like Capaldi's interpretation in general and it's not awful, it's just a little too much and I wish they would tone it down, just a little, because it's already almost as tired as hilarious "sorry it triggers you!" jokes.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 21:19
|
|
|
The Clara jokes serve a clear purpose - they show that 12 is excessively honest, and can't help but speak his mind. They are getting a bit grating but I can't see any malicious aspect to it at all, he seems to just be thinking aloud.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 21:23
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:The Clara jokes serve a clear purpose - they show that 12 is excessively honest, and can't help but speak his mind. They are getting a bit grating but I can't see any malicious aspect to it at all, he seems to just be thinking aloud. A bit grating and becoming more grating is how I would describe them, yes.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 21:26
|
|
|
Bicyclops posted:A bit grating and becoming more grating is how I would describe them, yes. Yeah, we know. You said. I enjoy those jokes, each to their own I guess.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 21:29
|
|
|
Just agree with him so he'll stop complaining for a week.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 21:34
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:The Clara jokes serve a clear purpose - they show that 12 is excessively honest, and can't help but speak his mind. They are getting a bit grating but I can't see any malicious aspect to it at all, he seems to just be thinking aloud. That's the thing, the implication that it's some unspoken truth that Clara is ugly/fat/whatever is kind of unpleasant (particularly for a family show).
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 21:36
|
|
|
To make it not just about the Doctor, I think Clara's had a few "what the gently caress, why are you being such a dick" moments with regards to Danny Pink being a soldier. Like, both the "killing people" jokes she made ("killing people and crying about it" as well as "that [killing someone] means something coming from you") to him were... super awkward. And while the show treated them as super awkward, they really seemed too awkward for a functioning adult to have seriously made them. Basically, I think Moffat's probably, deep down, a bit of a dick, and he's making his characters a bit more dickish than he realizes. (Unless it's just me, and it's totally cool to make jokes about killing people to someone who probably has killed people.) Rita Repulsa posted:That's how he came off in this and in the last (both Bad Episodes)
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 21:39
|
|
|
Eiba posted:To make it not just about the Doctor, I think Clara's had a few "what the gently caress, why are you being such a dick" moments with regards to Danny Pink being a soldier. Like, both the "killing people" jokes she made ("killing people and crying about it" as well as "that [killing someone] means something coming from you") to him were... super awkward. And while the show treated them as super awkward, they really seemed too awkward for a functioning adult to have seriously made them. And the first one was within seconds of being introduced to him in a professional environment where they were going to be working together. How does she even have a job?
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 21:43
|
|
|
Craptacular! posted:Didn't we already see the end of the universe in Utopia? Utopia was "the universe is ending", this is "we're literally on the last planet near a star in the entire universe".
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 21:50
|
|
|
Stealthweasel posted:That's the thing, the implication that it's some unspoken truth that Clara is ugly/fat/whatever is kind of unpleasant (particularly for a family show). Stealthweasel posted:And the first one was within seconds of being introduced to him in a professional environment where they were going to be working together. How does she even have a job? 
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 22:01
|
|
|
No joke, someone got asked that question at a place I worked by someone on the Executive Committee during an HR session that was designed to get to know him. It's a horribly insensitive question and certainly doesn't endear one to Clara, but it's definitely not shocking that it happened and that she's still working there.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 22:08
|
|
|
Moffat wrote a sitcom about teachers years ago in which literally everyone was a total dick. I don't think he enjoyed his time as a teacher.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 22:08
|
|
|
Fil5000 posted:Moffat wrote a sitcom about teachers years ago in which literally everyone was a total dick. I don't think he enjoyed his time as a teacher. That show resonated very strongly with the teachers I know. Being a teacher generally sucks for everyone involved.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 22:15
|
|
|
The scene with the whatever-the-gently caress on the bed was awesome, and that horrible, lumpish, gray...thing that got revealed in soft focus when the cover came off actually made me gasp. Too bad nothing ever came of it. Bad, weird, thrown together, disjointed, Moffatism in the extreme. Still not warm to Capaldi. Similar to other posters, find the constant negging really offputting.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 22:17
|
|
|
Bicyclops posted:No joke, someone got asked that question at a place I worked by someone on the Executive Committee during an HR session that was designed to get to know him. It's a horribly insensitive question and certainly doesn't endear one to Clara, but it's definitely not shocking that it happened and that she's still working there. Actually I completely misremembered that scene because I thought it was her first day working there, not his. It makes more sense with her just being rude to the new guy as opposed to coming into a new workplace and immediately savaging her colleagues.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 22:30
|
|
|
Eiba posted:So... is there anyone else who loves Capaldi in general, but is really tired of his constant putdowns of Clara? "You're a beautiful woman. Probably." Capaldi is nailing the alienness of The Doctor and if you want to see a bunch of misogyny up in this piece, it speaks more to you then the characterization. Also I finished Engines of War and it was pretty loving awesome. I know a few people said it was more childish then some of the average books but I didn't get that vibe at all. I also know a few people are adamant against the Time War being depicted, but if it had to be depicted, this is pretty much exactly how I'd want it to be. You want Rassilon? You get Rassilon!  Tons of Time Lord politics and poo poo here, and it was great for fans of Deadly Assassin, Arc of Infinity, and The Five Doctors. I had no idea they'd Go There based on the back jacket description but boy did they!I know nobody from the BBC actually reads our silly little Doctor Who thread here, especially with the Big Finish forums and Gallifrey Base existing as more official conduits for fan/creator interaction. But I gotta say right now, I would Pledge to buy any and all War Doctor stories, in novel, audio, or poo poo, even comic form. I don't usually read comics, but I will find a goddamn local comic store and buy War Doctor comics if you make them. The author really nailed him as a great Doctor here, wholly bringing him into the canon as an Official Doctor. I could really buy the idea that if the Time War ended then and there, he could go adventuring off with a Companion or two and we'd love him. He is The Doctor. Well loving done! Also they went to the "End of the Universe" and it jibed pretty well with the last planet as shown in the latest episode. Astroman fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Sep 14, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 22:35
|
|
|
First: That was an awesome episode, F the h8rs. TARDIS going to Gallifrey was a little WTF, but it's not like that hasn't happened before in the last 18 months. More interestingly (to me), both Moffat and Capaldi seem to be borrowing the new Doctor's characterization liberally from Hugh Laurie's Dr. House. I've often thought both roles had a lot in common (and both owed a lot to Sherlock Holmes) so I'm pretty cool with this.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 22:37
|
|
|
The thing that stood out most for me in Listen was the perfect use of subdued incidental music to suggest tone, atmosphere and emotion. No hyperactive orchestra or epileptic drum machine that barges into every scene, screams, "IT'S ALL ABOUT ME!" and refuses to leave when glared at. This season's done a better job of using background music whereas previous seasons tend to use foreground music. There's still a long way to go -- Deep Breath was mostly all the usual musical nonsense, the first half of Into the Dalek was all darkly brooding ambience but then went all MURRAY GOLD! on us after that. Robot of Sherwood's score I can forgive because it complemented the frothy camp nonsense, whereas Listen was just perfectly understated and atmospheric, giving each and every scene room to breathe and knowing when to keep quiet for dramatic effect. In Doctor Who Extra they specifically drew attention to the development of this episode's soundscape. Such a shame that "this time we decided to make an effort" isn't the default position the Doctor Who production takes when it comes to sound design.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 22:42
|
|
|
Astroman posted:"You're a beautiful woman. Probably." No, the misogyny's there. This isn't the Doctor not knowing what's attractive, it's the Doctor regularly asserting that he does know what's attractive, and Clara isn't. The jokes are put-downs, and I find them irritating and unnecessary, too. If they were "I'm sure she's quite attractive, I wouldn't know," they wouldn't bother me. I suspect this has to do with Moffat writing through a very dudebro lens. Vastra and Jenny have the same problem; they're really darned lesbian-by-way-of-straight-guy. (Note, I'm not saying Moffat is a terrible misogynist, just that those jokes pretty clearly are, and I understand why they make people uncomfortable. They make me uncomfortable.)
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 22:49
|
|
|
pgroce posted:(Note, I'm not saying Moffat is a terrible misogynist,
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 22:54
|
|
|
Sinestro posted:I've sort of read this as Twelve's lovely way of dealing with the fact that he both realizes why he shouldn't be and still is attracted to Clara. That he's insulting her for his own benefit, trying to make it clear that he's totally not interested. It makes more sense if you replace "twelve" with "Steven"
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 22:54
|
|
|
Burkion posted:Like Jenny! Who Moffat specifically asked to be left alive so she could... Rita Repulsa posted:I was surprised when Rusty did not kick the bucket at the end, that's how these kinds of tales usually go. Instead Rusty goes off on a venture. That's the only reason Jenny lived, because dying is "how these kind of tales usually go".
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 22:59
|
|
|
I did laugh when they joined the dots between "she has a wide face" and "why does she need three mirrors", but yeah it's worrying as a trend.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 23:04
|
|
|
Overnights are in! Duck and cover! 4.8 million, 23.5% share, still 2nd for Saturday behind The X Factor (which also suffered a similarly-sized drop from last week's rating, incidentally), still won its timeslot.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 23:04
|
|
|
"The triumph of intellect and romance over brute force and cynicism". That's what Ferguson described Doctor Who as being about. And he's pretty right - the Doctor is basically RoleModel.txt. Sure he can be a bit mean or weird some times and has occasional moments of sci fi Family of Blood style stuff, but he means well and is in almost all stories definitely the Good Guy in a very popular programme watched by children of all ages. That is why it's such a huge loving annoyance (at best) or problem (more realistically) that he is doing an awful lot of harassing Clara over her physical appearance. This kind of poo poo does influence people and please back my Kickstarter to fund my trip to go boot Moffat in the balls.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 23:13
|
|
|
SiKboy posted:The doctor has never met anyone who wasnt important. Thats kind of part of his whole deal. Either you're deliberately misinterpreting "important" or you've never seen any Doctor Who before - take your pick! Khanstant posted:Why would the Doctor pick out some arbitrary "normal" person as a companion? Why indeed?  MattD1zzl3 posted:I am personally hand waving this away as the imagination of the three of them assuming it's a monster. None of them looked, so how would we (the audience) know what it looked like? How do we know what the ship in Girl in the Fireplace is called?
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 23:15
|
|
|
I sort of get a trading-faux-barbs kind of affectionate vibe from the constant put-downs, or that that's what they're trying to convey anyway. Clara seems to get annoyed by them but it's not wearing down her self-esteem and she insults him as well, though I don't remember any about his looks. I imagine they'll taper off as he regains his heroism and all that throughout the series. Can but hope, as I'm also not a fan of them. With many writers you could debate whether there's misogynistic feelings behind jokes like that, but when you're talking about a guy who's already demonstrated misogyny in his writing a bunch of times it's pretty hard to avoid being biased.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 23:16
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 1, 2024 03:42 |
|
|
Stretch goals: will hold Moffat's hand over a lighter until he records a personal apology for every use of the word "Yowza!" in Doctor Who.
|
|
#
?
Sep 14, 2014 23:16
|
|