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Yeah I think no one is allowed to remember all the exact events of the 50th because timey wimey decided that only the last person in chronological order was allowed. War and 10 forgot the details but 11 got to remember.
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Sep 15, 2014 01:17
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MrL_JaKiri posted:I didn't much care for most of what Capaldi was saying for the early parts of the episode - either it was directly offensive (his negging of Clara) No. No you don't do this poo poo here. This isn't the UK thread where you piss yourself and cry because someone used a gendered insult. This is the doctor who thread for straight men with big virile balls. Also you're a oval office and so's Basil Brush.
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Sep 15, 2014 01:26
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I've just rewatched a bit of Earthshock, and it seems to me that in context it represents a real change in how the show worked. Killing off companions had technically been done before if you count Sara Kingdom, and gruesomely at that, but the Doctor is so drat powerless in a lot of the story and his TARDIS and companions get drawn right into the centre of the danger. You can see it as a real aggressive reaction to the frippery of the Williams era.
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Sep 15, 2014 01:31
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AndyElusive posted:Ah! Thank you guys for the...Clarafication. Shugojin posted:Yeah I think no one is allowed to remember all the exact events of the 50th because timey wimey decided that only the last person in chronological order was allowed. War and 10 forgot the details but 11 got to remember. Yes? There was only one Clara at those events. The Doctor's difficulties remembering multi-Doctor stories are handwaved as being because multiple versions are in the same place and time.
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Sep 15, 2014 01:33
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Gaz-L posted:Yes? There was only one Clara at those events. The Doctor's difficulties remembering multi-Doctor stories are handwaved as being because multiple versions are in the same place and time. I understand that. Just trying to find some logic in her apparent disbelief and cluelessness when it came to Elevens transformation into Twelve in Deep Breath, which others have already provided. Her remembering War Doctor and apparently understanding that his appearance changes throughout his lifespan confused me when there was so much focus on her coming to terms with the look of Twelve and why or how he changed. Anyway, sorry for the slight derail since this isn't a Deep Breath thread it's the LISTEN thread.
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Sep 15, 2014 01:45
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Psybro posted:I've just rewatched a bit of Earthshock, and it seems to me that in context it represents a real change in how the show worked. Probably the ultimate example of Saward's preferred formula/template. It's either this one or "Resurrection of the Daleks".
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Sep 15, 2014 01:47
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Gaz-L posted:Yes? There was only one Clara at those events. The Doctor's difficulties remembering multi-Doctor stories are handwaved as being because multiple versions are in the same place and time. Yeah that was incoherent. The Doctor was the only person involved in that who was prohibited from remembering anything.
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Sep 15, 2014 01:49
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MrL_JaKiri posted:it was directly offensive (his negging of Clara) To Tumblr! #problematicchildrensprogramme
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Sep 15, 2014 01:58
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Got it. What the Doctor needs is a second companion, then he can insult them both and it'll be less like he's just picking on Clara. Just needs a bit of dilution so he's quite rude to two people rather than very rude to one. Hell, he should get out his phone-book and insult every one of his companions ever, one by one. Also if the thing in the bedroom was another kid, no wonder their parents left them there, they were gently caress-ugly. 
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Sep 15, 2014 02:00
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It's Moffat trying to ape the Baker-style obliviousness in the laziest way. Makes 12 seem like an rear end and reveals how bad Moffat's dialogue is.
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Sep 15, 2014 02:08
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While I wasn't that fond of the episode, I kind of like the almost Doc/Marty relationship going on here between The Doctor and Clara. Whenever he just turns up in her room he's always got this wonderful, crazy old man vibe.
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Sep 15, 2014 02:08
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McDragon posted:Got it. What the Doctor needs is a second companion, then he can insult them both and it'll be less like he's just picking on Clara. Just needs a bit of dilution so he's quite rude to two people rather than very rude to one. Hell, he should get out his phone-book and insult every one of his companions ever, one by one. E: I thought that episode was the best thing Moffat's written in years.
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Sep 15, 2014 02:08
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Everyone was all stoked we were going to get a darker meaner Doctor with Capaldi and now people aren't down with his insults because they suddenly like Clara a lot more. Who could have predicted that.
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Sep 15, 2014 02:14
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Only until I read this thread that it hit me that the TARDIS apparently went to Gallifrey. Wasn't that the point of the whole mission after the 50th? I mean, it's always been "find Gallifrey", not "find Gallifrey in a certain time period." Is there even such a thing as the concept of present day to time lords?
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Sep 15, 2014 02:15
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AndyElusive posted:Everyone was all stoked we were going to get a darker meaner Doctor with Capaldi and now people aren't down with his insults because they suddenly like Clara a lot more. The turnaround in Clara is the best. Series 7: "Ugh, Clara is the worst. She has no personality and I hope she dies." Series 8: "  The Doctor made a dumb joke about Clara's makeup. WHY IS HE BEING SO MEAN TO THE BEST COMPANION OF ALL TIME?? "
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Sep 15, 2014 02:18
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Astroman posted:"You're a beautiful woman. Probably." I just finished it myself! Well, a few days ago, but it takes me a while to get my thoughts together sometimes. I agree with a lot of what you've said, though expanded War Doctor stuff is obviously really hard. Here is my "review" though!: Engines of War by George Mann  The War Doctor first jumped on to our screens at the end of The Name of the Doctor, indeed at the end of series 7 itself. The Name of the Doctor, from Chakoteya transcripts posted:(The Doctor looks forward to where a man is standing with his back to them.) The Doctor’s secret, the War Doctor, was the incarnation that the Doctor didn’t talk about because of how he acted in the Time War, and how (he thought) he ended it. Naturally the introduction text of “introducing John Hurt as the Doctor” over the War Doctor’s face then a cut to credits had the opposite effect on the fans: people were talking about him all the way up until his appearance in the much anticipated 50th special, The Day of the Doctor.  Whether poor internal politics at the BBC destroyed our chances to see Christopher Ecclestone in a similar role in the special, or bad choices denied Paul McGann of his swansong return (which he arguably go anyway in The Night of the Doctor “minisode”) is hardly the point. John Hurt was fantastic as the War Doctor in Day. He played it as an old and weary Doctor who had enough of the time war (his catchphrase seeming to be “no more” before adopting 9’s “fantastic”), who somehow came across as younger than either Tennant or Smith. The chemistry of all three was marvellous, the Tower of London scene in particular really selling Tennant and Smith as old men who have tried to bury the atrocity the committed as the War Doctor. He also serves as a lovely conduit for “Classic Doctor Who” to poke fun at “New Doctor Who”, such as in the way the War Doctor reacts to 10 and 11’s use of the sonic screwdriver. In the end, all three reject the notion that they “did [what they did] without choice”. They make a choice to find another solution, a better way, and the War Doctor realises he had a right to be called the Doctor all along (though obviously he won’t because we can’t mess up our numbering). The War Doctor was ultimately fantastic, but his appearance was over all too soon, even with the special clocking in at roughly 1h15m. Though he did just make a reappearance in flashback-form in series 8’s Listen. If only we could have more of the War Doctor, right? Right? quote:He was an older man, with a craggy, careworn face and startling green-brown eyes. His hair was silvery grey and brushed up into a tuft at the front, and he wore a bushy white beard and moustache. He frowned at her, looking perplexed. He appeared to be wearing a battered leather coat and a herringbone patterned scarf. Engines of War, written by George Mann, seems to follow the tradition of the other larger-size hardback Doctor Who releases by BBC Books The Wheel of Ice (by Stephen Baxter) and Harvest of Time (Alistair Reynolds). Both of those books featured the second and third Doctors respectively. I don’t think there’s been any confirmation of these books being “part of a series”, but they have had similar releases and all feature past Doctors. The plot takes place before Day of the Doctor, during a conflict between the Time Lords and Daleks in a particular region of space. The Doctor is forced to land on a planet in the region, Moldox, which has been ravaged by Daleks. There he meets a plucky young Dalek hunter named Cinder, who becomes his companion. She’s pretty cool. The Doctor wants to find out what plans the Daleks are concocting, etc., etc. quote:“Doc-tor,” said the Dalek. “Dalek killer. The Great Scourge. The Living Death. The Executioner.” Structurally Engines of War is actually quite pleasing. The larger page sizes, and the roughly 350 page count make a book that’s not a chore to get through, but is pleasingly weightier than the quite short New Series Adventures range, which is still running. The book is split into three parts of roughly equal length. While the book is linear, each part has its own little “act” to wrap up, and in those ways it mirrors the structure of a classic Doctor Who serial, albeit more along the lines of The Two Doctors with its 3x45 minute structure. This isn’t the only part of classic Doctor Who that the book mirrors. It’s packed with references to the classic run. From The Five Doctors, to the obligatory references to Genesis of the Daleks, and a lot of bits in between. But it does so in a story that feels very modern, filled with broad audacity and even spaceship battles. If RTD had to write this as some sort of finale, it would seem to make sense. In this sense Engines of War really does manage to pull off a marriage between the old and new, the classic and modern, when it comes to representing the broad spectrum of what Doctor Who is. The problems for me come when looking deeper at this “marriage” of elements. For the most part this is all Engines of War is. There is hardly any in between. The Doctor, despite his claims to the contrary throughout the early part of the book, still acts and feels like the Doctor. He is even referred to as the Doctor by numerous people. The ruse quickly falls apart for the reader, and it quickly becomes apparent the Doctor is only fooling himself. But heck, maybe he was. He’s definitely more hard-line than other Doctors, but it’s hard to imagine them not being so when put in similar situations. There’s only one exception towards the end, and it’s pretty good, but I would have liked to have seen more of that sort of thing – to be made to feel uncomfortable about this man who doesn’t deserve the Doctor, doing things the Doctor would never conceivably do. But it doesn’t really happen.  The book's tagline posted:War changes everyone. Even the Doctor. There are also a noticeable amount of typos in this book. There also some bits of heavy exposition that are a bit grating. It really feels like the BBC didn’t really care too much about this book. It could have been edited a bit more, and the focus of the book is just a bit lacking. Mann seems like a good writer, and a lot of this novel feels really nice. But at times I can’t help but feel Mann is doing in his best without being given much, if any, direction as to how things should play out, what the War Doctor was like, what Time War conflicts were like, and is doing the best he can with that. And with that, he does a great job. Engines of War is a fine book. It’s a great read, in fact. If you want more of the War Doctor, then, well, here he is. He’s grumpy with a sparkle in his eye, flying about in his badass TARDIS that has a ceiling that shows space around him. Mann captures the essence of Hurt really, really well in fact, and it’s one of the high points of this novel for me. But that’s all it really is. It’s just more of the War Doctor. It’s easy to guess what the conclusion will be early on, and when it does come it’s very solid and satisfying. But it doesn’t really add much to anything. Don’t get me wrong, it adds a bit, and it’s nice that it does. But overall, it’s just more of the War Doctor. But you know what? That’s not a bad thing at all. That’s fantastic.  --- For my moaning about typos, please excuse mine. It's quite late! PoshAlligator fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 02:19
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Tons of Time Lord politics and poo poo here, and it was great for fans of Deadly Assassin, Arc of Infinity, and The Five Doctors. I had no idea they'd Go There based on the back jacket description but boy did they!
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Missed a lot over the last day.Astroman posted:Capaldi is nailing the alienness of The Doctor and if you want to see a bunch of misogyny up in this piece, it speaks more to you then the characterization. Astroman posted:That's your opinion. It's not objective. I'm just now seeing it. I guess this means you can call me a misogynist now, if it makes you feel better, AndyElusive posted:Everyone was all stoked we were going to get a darker meaner Doctor with Capaldi and now people aren't down with his insults because they suddenly like Clara a lot more. MrL_JaKiri posted:Either you're deliberately misinterpreting "important" or you've never seen any Doctor Who before - take your pick! RunAndGun posted:I also remember a tweet of Eight standing in the current console room, arms spread wide. Increased chance of an Eight+Twelve appearance this (or next?) season? Anyway, I have a feeling this is going to be one of those episodes that is going to be regarded much better in a few years on rewatches. A lot of the problems people have with it are entirely fair complaints, but beyond them, I think it's a pretty great episode.
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Sep 15, 2014 02:21
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LividLiquid posted:I'm not down with his insults because they're all about her looks, which reinforces very outdated notions that women are just around to look pretty. When they arrived at the children's home he says something along the lines of, “Have you seen the size of the human brain? They're hilarious!” when Clara insisted they weren't anywhere from her past.
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Sep 15, 2014 02:29
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Irish Joe posted:The turnaround in Clara is the best. I'm glad you weren't banned for saying incredibly creepy things about a child. We'd be missing out on all this insightful commentary. 
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Sep 15, 2014 02:33
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AndyElusive posted:When they arrived at the children's home he says something along the lines of, “Have you seen the size of the human brain? They're hilarious!” when Clara insisted they weren't anywhere from her past. Which is about her having forgotten growing up in an orphanage, even though she'd suggested he may have forgotten something simple like writing a word on a blackboard. And it turns out that Clara absolutely did not live at that home, but the Doctor probably did forget writing something down, despite his big ol' Time Lord brain.
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Sep 15, 2014 02:36
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Cliff Racer posted:They made one episode like this and it turned out so well that they actually brought the character back for another one-off appearance. Who was this? Wilfred? Or are you talking about Classic Who (which I basically have seen none of)? Wilfred was pretty boss. Had a thought at work today: until now I've basically been thinking that the reason the Doctor keeps companions around is to keep him grounded; being a couple thousand years old would quickly cause you to lose perspective in regards to the 'little people' and I always figured him needing companions was his way of staving that off. But what if he travels with companions because he's afraid of being alone?  Not sure how I feel about that interpretation, yet, but it kind of leapt out to me as I was thinking about the Gallifrey bit from Listen.I also think it was great that the thing that started the episode (the invisible/perfect-at-hiding monster) is pretty much forgotten by all the characters by the end of the episode. I'm not sure if I want it to be a recurring thing/come back or if it would be better for it to be the Doctor's "one that got away".
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Sep 15, 2014 02:42
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He means Craig, the guy who was briefly the Doctor's flatmate.
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Sep 15, 2014 02:43
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Speaking of the War Doctor and John Hurt's incredible performance, I decided to re-watch the 50th. One of the best episodes ever made, I still think. Does anybody know of a wallpaper version of all the Doctors looking up at Gallifrey?
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Sep 15, 2014 02:44
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On the subject of the Doctor's constant insults to Clara, there's something to remember: He's not just doing it to her. She's getting the brunt of it because she's always there, but remember 'if you were real you'd only have six months to live' from Robot of Sherwood, and even him being very brutally callous to Rupert, a scared child. Hell, the only time he even pretended to be nice was Into the Dalek, when he got the one soldier to swallow something before he died. I think this Doctor has a bit of a 'runaway freight train' thought process going on. He can be nice, but he's usually too lost in his own thoughts (or too dismissive of the target) to realize he should be. Everything in the universe takes a back seat, because the Doctor's got ideas. We saw a different facet of that with Into the Dalek, where he's too busy with his own conclusions about the broken Dalek to realize the implications of the whole thing. I hate to use the comparison because of just how Internet it is, but it's a trait that a lot of people with Asperger's and other high-functioning autistics have. They're not being intentionally mean, they're perfectly capable of being nice. It just doesn't occur to them that they should be.
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Sep 15, 2014 02:45
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Rapey Joe Stalin posted:To Tumblr! This is the worst shitpost in this thread, which is sort of impressive.
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Sep 15, 2014 02:48
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Cleretic posted:On the subject of the Doctor's constant insults to Clara, there's something to remember: He's not just doing it to her. She's getting the brunt of it because she's always there, but remember 'if you were real you'd only have six months to live' from Robot of Sherwood, and even him being very brutally callous to Rupert, a scared child. Hell, the only time he even pretended to be nice was Into the Dalek, when he got the one soldier to swallow something before he died. Not sure I buy the 'callous to Rupert'. That scene of him telling the kid it's OK to be scared, and can even be awesome is the warmest and most disarming the Twelfth Doctor's been thus far, I'd say.
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Sep 15, 2014 02:49
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It's also pretty clear that he does have an actual respect for Clara despite his grumpy insults. He asks her if he is a good man, because hers is an opinion that he trusts. He offers to take her wherever she pleases (even if he doesn't think the person she wants to see is real). There's also the whole "...Do I really not pay you?" stuff. He also believed she was capable of holding her own against the Halfman when he 'abandoned' her, because when there was a situation when he considered her in actual danger at the end of everything, he commanded her back onto the TARDIS.
SirSamVimes fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 02:50
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Craptacular! posted:Only until I read this thread that it hit me that the TARDIS apparently went to Gallifrey. Wasn't that the point of the whole mission after the 50th? Was it on Gallifrey though? Clara said they were in the same barn the Doctor used to "detonate" the Moment, and I did not get the impression that took place on Gallifrey. On the other hand why the gently caress wouldn't it be on Gallifrey since that's where the Doctor grew up.
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Sep 15, 2014 02:51
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Cleretic posted:On the subject of the Doctor's constant insults to Clara, there's something to remember: He's not just doing it to her. She's getting the brunt of it because she's always there, but remember 'if you were real you'd only have six months to live' from Robot of Sherwood, and even him being very brutally callous to Rupert, a scared child. Hell, the only time he even pretended to be nice was Into the Dalek, when he got the one soldier to swallow something before he died. It's true that this Doctor has been a jerk to everybody, and I doubt the stuff with Clara is intended to be any different, but it is different with Clara because his insults are pretty much always about her looks.
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Sep 15, 2014 02:51
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It's not about Clara's ~feelings~, she's a fictional character. It's about the message it sends. It's like a (tremendously less severe, of course) version of The Twin Dilemma and how it sets Peri up as an abused spouse. "Character interiority" doesn't overwhelm the surface imagery. So the Doctor should stop with the Negging bullshit posthaste.
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Sep 15, 2014 02:54
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Gaz-L posted:He means Craig, the guy who was briefly the Doctor's flatmate. Hunh, I remember Craig but I don't remember him having a second appearance. It seems I need to re-watch some Who...
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Sep 15, 2014 02:54
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WarLocke posted:Hunh, I remember Craig but I don't remember him having a second appearance. It seems I need to re-watch some Who... The second episode is where Stormageddon and Eleven/Twelve's "I speak *blank*" come from.
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Sep 15, 2014 02:57
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SirSamVimes posted:Speaking of the War Doctor and John Hurt's incredible performance, I decided to re-watch the 50th. One of the best episodes ever made, I still think. Does anybody know of a wallpaper version of all the Doctors looking up at Gallifrey? Honestly doing a whole watch through Name, Night, Day, and Time, is just wonderful. After the lukewarm series 7a and the bubbly majority of 7b it was so great.
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Sep 15, 2014 02:59
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I thought negging was some PUA bullshit about trying to trick women into sleeping with you by loving with their heads.
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Sep 15, 2014 02:59
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It is. That's what makes his use of it so foolish.
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Sep 15, 2014 03:02
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AndyElusive posted:When they arrived at the children's home he says something along the lines of, “Have you seen the size of the human brain? They're hilarious!” when Clara insisted they weren't anywhere from her past.
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Sep 15, 2014 03:03
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Very sneaky, these Colemans. He said "You've got Bernard Cribbins in the walls doing all the voices".
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Sep 15, 2014 03:06
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WarLocke posted:Hunh, I remember Craig but I don't remember him having a second appearance. It seems I need to re-watch some Who... He gained a lot of weight by the second appearance, so much so that I didn't even notice that it was him until it was pointed out in the show.
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Sep 15, 2014 03:07
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LividLiquid posted:... Was it? Pity. I'm totally in favor of Eight getting more screen time, however it's managed.
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Sep 15, 2014 03:13
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Rapey Joe Stalin posted:It is. That's what makes his use of it so foolish. The Doctor really needs to stop negging her, though. It's that 11 crush living on (Oh you don't see me an that hurts so badly  ) getting manifested as this creepy PUA trash.
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Sep 15, 2014 03:27
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