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STAC Goat posted:The funny thing is you basically described Joseph Park's gimmick. Is this where I feel bad about myself?
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Nov 2, 2014 02:05
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Depends on you, I guess. Personally I thought Joseph Park was brilliant and one of the best gimmicks I've seen in wrestling in years. But I tend to be softer on TNA and the idea of appreciating some of what they do than most around here.DeathChicken posted:When did Giant ever kill "the little flippy guys"? That was more Sid's thing way later on (probably around the time Russo was on board, since he gave no fucks about flippy guys). But I contend that's not what happened with The Giant. Yes, he squashed the Flynns and Wrights to stay over on a week to week basis but he also threw main eventers like Sting and Luger around the ring like ragdolls. He was just booked as a monster across the board, which is something WWE never did with him.
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Nov 2, 2014 02:26
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STAC Goat posted:Depends on you, I guess. Personally I thought Joseph Park was brilliant and one of the best gimmicks I've seen in wrestling in years. But I tend to be softer on TNA and the idea of appreciating some of what they do than most around here. It's not incorrect, in 97 WCW seriously hurt the ability of guys like Rey and Juvi to get over by feeding them to guys like Nash and Giant. It only got worse over the next two years, but so many wrestlers had their careers hurt by being jobbers in WCW because they were talented but didn't speak English.
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Nov 2, 2014 02:32
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I never said WCW didn't mishandle people, but the idea that Giant was just beating up little Mexican guys in masks doesn't mesh with my memory. Admittedly my memory is very fallible but I distinctly remember countless WCW jobbers and lots of midcarders, many of whom most certainly deserved better booking. The WCW roster was massive and the luchadores did not have a monopoly on bad booking.
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Nov 2, 2014 02:40
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The Cruiserweight division actually managed to have some of the best booking, though. Almost all of Chris Jericho's skits were great, especially when he commentates the CW battle royal at Slamboree and the following unveil of Dean Malenko. That pop was insane. The highlights of the division were: Random, fun cruiserweight matches every Nitro & PPV to warm up the show Billy Kidman's redemption from Raven's lackey Eddie/Rey's mask vs title feud Jericho/Rey's mask vs title feud Sonny Ono's little interactions with his talent I think the only real blunders I can remember from the division is having Psicosis win a Japanese title from Jushin Liger with a bottle of tequila, which really hurt relations with NJPW, and when things like the Filthy Animals or the Pinata on a Poll match happened. The LWO was a little too much as well, I have no idea why that ever happened. Oh, and Prince Iukea, rookie of the year. I don't remember The Giant or Nash ever running through the division and irredeemably ruining it, like when Hornswaggle took the CW championship and retired it.
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Nov 2, 2014 02:54
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The CW Division was a lot of fun on itself but there were obvious glass ceilings in place that kept any of them from rising out of it. That's really not that important when it comes to people like Ciclope or Lash Leroux but it stands out with people like Jericho or Rey. But yeah, the roster was so big and WCW had so much TV that the CW division could kind of do its own thing a lot of time and these sort of issues wouldn't come up except when Scott Steiner killed a few of them or one of them clearly outgrew their little play area and stagnated because they had nowhere to go. The CW, Tag, US, and TV divisions were often what kept me interested in WCW so it seems odd when people insist they had no midcard booking or it was all sacrificed to the upper card. Yeah, it happened sometimes but I watched Nitro for poo poo that happened in between and there was a lot of it. I guess that stuff just seems very inconsequential to the wrestling historians chronicling the mistakes of companies past. The people who were held back or ruined or the major stories that were bungled carry more lasting memory. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Nov 2, 2014 |
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Nov 2, 2014 02:58
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STAC Goat posted:The CW Division was a lot of fun on itself but there were obvious glass ceilings in place that kept any of them from rising out of it. That's really not that important when it comes to people like Ciclope or Lash Leroux but it stands out with people like Jericho or Rey. If you're talking about a glass ceiling in WWE, that ceiling is there for anyone who isn't John Cena, Randy Orton, Triple H, Brock Lesner, and maybe sometimes a guy like CM Punk or Daniel Bryan has a flash in the pan. I can't even remember when WWE were putting in effort to an undercard feud. Rhodes/Usos have been having tag-team matches with no story for seemingly years now. The Divas feuds are so goddamn pathetic unless you're a Bella. Has there even been a feud over the IC/US titles in recent history, or was it always random battle royal -> title shot -> new champion
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Nov 2, 2014 03:06
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STAC Goat posted:The CW Division was a lot of fun on itself but there were obvious glass ceilings in place that kept any of them from rising out of it. That's really not that important when it comes to people like Ciclope or Lash Leroux but it stands out with people like Jericho or Rey. Stop just talking out of your rear end. Seriously. If your memory doesn't jive with something it is because you either have a bad memory or didn't watch. The roster was huge and yet almost every single cruiserweight just ended up as fodder for the bigger wrestlers, had their pushes killed to get over the nWo or had pushes dropped because of internal politics. It wasn't just Steiner, it was Meng, Nash, Giant, Hall, etc etc being sent out to squash guys or slip on a banana peel and then squash them. Yes some fun matches resulted, yes a few good storylines developed but the early story of the cruiserweight division was wrestlers putting on good matches and then being treated like jokes. The initial tournament was such an afterthought with no thought put into making wrestlers look good. Syxx's title reign was basically a back drop for Nash and Hall to make small wrestlers look like poo poo. Jericho and Wright got the belt in 97 as total afterthoughts and mostly looked like jokes during their reigns. Rey was supposed to lose his mask in 97 and got the belt for two weeks after that classic match because Eddy refused to lose. The tag titles were Nash and Hall's personal toys that they kept for over a year because they used their influence to delay their loss to the Steiners for months, and then quickly got them back. After that they were an utter joke being contested in singles matches, with Judy Bagwell and Kenny Kaos and becoming pretty much irrelevant for a couple years. The TV title is pretty much the only exception as after the idiotic Iaukea reign it had a good year of fun matches until it was booked to oblivion. There's a reason guys like Jericho were willing to take less guaranteed money to get out and why guys like Pillman were totally underpushed and underpaid and were told by their friends to get out.
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Nov 2, 2014 03:10
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MRT, you're a knowledgeable and intelligent poster but I never know why you're jumping down my throat or what the gently caress you're so riled up about. WCW was a loving mess and I never said any different. But I have amazing memories of the CW division from the likes of Rey, Ultimo Dragon, Malenko, and Jericho. Yeah, there's also pretty crappy Syxx memories and heavyweights tossing around luchadores for show, but the one didn't often take away from the other for me. Yeah, the Outsiders had a strangle hold on the tag belts for awhile. On the flip side there was also reigns of people like Raven and Saturn, Malenko and Benoit, Rey and Kidman, and others I greatly enjoyed. Yes, the TV title ended up in a trash can thanks to Scott Hall but before that there were pretty great programs with people like Booker, Saturn, and Finlay. I don't even remember what became of the U.S. Title but I do remember some fun stuff with Raven and DDP. I never said WCW wasn't a mess and I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be defending to you. All I'm saying is that the CW division had its own little corner of Nitro and that corner was pretty cool. Sometimes some fucker invaded the corner or they got pulled out to be fodder in someone else's corner and that sucked, but it isn't all there was. And as I have already said in these last couple of posts, this overall booking strategy was destructive to the likes of Rey and Jericho who eventually outgrew the CW division but couldn't move up the card because of the long term booking habits. And that's the sort of thing that's going to have a more lasting impact to history as opposed to some random cool CW title program. Flameingblack posted:People are conditioned to believe Heavyweights are the most important part of the show, but I believe if you made distinct divisions and put effort into all of them, people would begin to care. In TNA, the X-Division, which was borderline cruiserweight division, was the most popular part of the show for a long time. Then it became the Knockouts, and then it was the Tag-Team division. For a short while, TNA was trying something different and it was all sticking until they hosed it up themselves. Yeah, I think a wrestling company works best when you have a bunch of divisions that all work on their own with their own booking and storylines but then a centralized upper card. Eventually people are going to have to move from a division to the upper card and that was a big part of WCWs problem that they didn't move those guys like Jericho, Benoit, Rey, Eddie, etc. But the flip side of that is today's WWE where the upper card is all they have and there are no working division happening in the mid and under card.
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Nov 2, 2014 03:23
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I'd like to see a Wrestling promotion just do what UFC does and put the most emphasis on the weight class that's hottest at the time. A women's match headlined a show, and as far as I know it was really well received. If they stopped treating every other division except for "John Cena" as an afterthought people would be more inclined to care about people who aren't John Cena.
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Nov 2, 2014 03:26
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That's actually what drew me to TNA in its early weekly PPV days, that they'd put the tag or X titles in the main event if they were the hot stories of the week. Despite the many other flaws with the product that was kind of refreshing and gave the whole card real weight. And as you said, even once they switched to a more traditional card structure thee was a bit of that at different times when the X, Knockout, or Tag divisions were hot. But TNA bungled all that over the years and all their divisions have gone the way of WWE.
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Nov 2, 2014 03:29
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STAC Goat posted:MRT, you're a knowledgeable and intelligent poster but I never know why you're jumping down my throat or what the gently caress you're so riled up about. "But yeah, the roster was so big and WCW had so much TV that the CW division could kind of do its own thing a lot of time and these sort of issues wouldn't come up except when Scott Steiner killed a few of them or one of them clearly outgrew their little play area and stagnated because they had nowhere to go. The CW, Tag, US, and TV divisions were often what kept me interested in WCW so it seems odd when people insist they had no midcard booking or it was all sacrificed to the upper card. Yeah, it happened sometimes but I watched Nitro for poo poo that happened in between and there was a lot of it." You are acting like Scott Steiner killing cruiserweights was an isolated incident when it wasn't. This started with a question about the Giant killing cruiserweights and you then decided to say the idea cruiserweights were used as sacrificial lambs is incorrect. It's not. To build up for WW3 97 there was a cruiserweight battle royal on Nitro and guess what? Giant came out and killed all the cruiserweights. This wasn't an isolated incident. Even Syxx as champion who was protected by who his friends were would be the designated job guy when they had to lose a major match. Every major cruiserweight from Rey, to Jericho to Juvi to Psicosis would be sent out as random designated job guys. Less often for Rey but enough that it seriously hurt his overness. You are saying something that is blatantly untrue in response to someone else's question.
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Nov 2, 2014 03:42
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Well I never intended to make it sound like a Steiner or Sid slaughtering of CWs was a rare thing. I apologize if that's the way I phrased it. It happened regularly enough to be a memorable booking strategy, at the very least. But while this wasn't an isolated booking strategy in and of itself I contend that the individual instances were isolated from the CW division booking itself so that Steiner tossing around a few luchadores didn't affect the CW title program happening. But again, of course that kind of long term booking has negative affects when it comes time to elevate people like Rey and Jericho. And that was one of WCW's many problems long term, that they not only resisted elevating people out of midcard divisions and into the upper card but that they made the whole process even harder by not protecting the divisions more carefully overall and instead using them as fodder a little too often. But at the same time I'd say that the roster was so huge and show so long that those divisions were often deep enough to still remain interesting even if they were getting marginalized by the booking. When I said that "The Giant was kept strong by sacrificing the CWs is incorrect" I didn't mean to say that the Giant didn't have CWs sacrificed to him. It happened. I just meant that the Giant had MANY people sacrificed to him and that there was a bigger difference in WCW vs WWE booking in that even when he went against the protected people he was still protected. I think that's a much bigger factor into the "The Giant vs Big Show" debate than the occasions where he threw around some CWs (although that did happen and was also A factor). If I sent a different message or flat out said something different I apologize and chalk it up to careless writing.
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Nov 2, 2014 03:55
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Let me clarify something...when I generalized the cruiserweights as the 'flippy guys', really the entire mid-card and undercard was so bloated that they started to blend together. I'm not speaking just of the cruiserweights but really I just didn't use the standard 'vanilla midgets' term to express whoever wasn't the precise main event picture. If I wanted to be precise, I'd have used both terms.
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Nov 2, 2014 06:01
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What's the stupidest and worst Warrior match I can find on the Network? Gassed by his entrance, does nothing but clotheslines, etc.
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Nov 2, 2014 08:30
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Luigi Thirty posted:What's the stupidest and worst Warrior match I can find on the Network? Gassed by his entrance, does nothing but clotheslines, etc. Hollywood Hogan vs. Warrior
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Nov 2, 2014 08:34
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Abrasive Obelisk posted:Hollywood Hogan vs. Warrior Halloween Havoc 1998, network link here.
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Nov 2, 2014 08:46
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Luigi Thirty posted:What's the stupidest and worst Warrior match I can find on the Network? Gassed by his entrance, does nothing but clotheslines, etc. Warrior v. Goldust In Your House 7: Good Friends, Better Enemies
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Nov 2, 2014 08:48
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Flameingblack posted:I'd like to see a Wrestling promotion just do what UFC does and put the most emphasis on the weight class that's hottest at the time. A women's match headlined a show, and as far as I know it was really well received. If they stopped treating every other division except for "John Cena" as an afterthought people would be more inclined to care about people who aren't John Cena. i think they kind of do this in cmll in theory? granted its not like youre ever going to see the minis main event big shows...
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Nov 2, 2014 08:59
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Memento posted:Halloween Havoc 1998, network link here. Endless rest holds, NWO interference, a ref bump...yup, this sure is a late-90s WCW match. E:  that ending was even stupider than I could've imagined.
Benne fucked around with this message at 09:30 on Nov 2, 2014 |
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Nov 2, 2014 09:16
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Ha ha ha, I backed up to catch the run-in to see Bret Hart beat a knocked out Sting with the sharpshooter. Apparently for the US Championship? I've forgotten so much WCW.
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Nov 2, 2014 10:02
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Sub Rosa posted:Ha ha ha, I backed up to catch the run-in to see Bret Hart beat a knocked out Sting with the sharpshooter. Apparently for the US Championship? I've forgotten so much WCW. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bB_HJSEe_0 How could you forget Warrior and his BDSM slave Brutus Beefcake ala Channing Tatum from This is the End? And keep going, You'll miss out on Vampiro tag teaming (multiple times) with Jerry Only from the Misfits, and Great Muta in a six man stable with ICP.
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Nov 2, 2014 12:58
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ThatCguy posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bB_HJSEe_0 My Mac doesn't like YouTube at the moment, but is that when Warrior teleported up to the rafters and he was holding a life-sized doll that was supposed to be the Disciple? As in they wanted people to believe that he was actually holding Brutus Beefcake in one arm while hanging from the ceiling.
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Nov 2, 2014 13:29
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Pope Corky the IX posted:My Mac doesn't like YouTube at the moment, but is that when Warrior teleported up to the rafters and he was holding a life-sized doll that was supposed to be the Disciple? As in they wanted people to believe that he was actually holding Brutus Beefcake in one arm while hanging from the ceiling. You know it is.
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Nov 2, 2014 13:36
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ThatCguy posted:You know it is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuNjriGjBtA&t=3268s The WrestleMania IX episode of OSW Review had a complete career retrospective of every gimmick Ed Leslie has ever had. It's magical. EDIT: It starts at the 54min28sec mark. I put in the link that should have started at that time but it's not working for some reason. Somebody fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Nov 2, 2014 |
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Nov 2, 2014 14:11
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Benne posted:Endless rest holds, NWO interference, a ref bump...yup, this sure is a late-90s WCW match. Don't forget Hogan trying to throw a fireball, the cameraman walking right up to him dropping flash paper and a lighter in the corner, and then it blowing up in his own hand
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Nov 2, 2014 17:12
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Pope Corky the IX posted:It starts at the 54min28sec mark. I put in the link that should have started at that time but it's not working for some reason. Copy/pasting with a time for some reason doesn't work. Gotta punch it in yourself. [video type="youtube" start="54m28s"] Edited it for you.
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Nov 2, 2014 17:36
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When and why did the piledriver hold become "illegal"?
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Nov 2, 2014 17:54
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Some internet research says that it was a kayfabe ban in the NWA that came around in the mid-70s to build heat by heels doing illegal piledrivers behind the ref's back or getting suspended doing them. The WWE legitimately banned it (unless you're Taker or Kane) after Owen Hart almost killed Steve Austin with one.
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Nov 2, 2014 17:56
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Luigi Thirty posted:The WWE legitimately banned it (unless you're Taker or Kane) after Owen Hart almost killed Steve Austin with one. It was later than that, Foley was doing his piledriver up until his first retirement in 2000.
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Nov 2, 2014 18:10
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Speaking of the piledriver ban, before the one Punk did against Cena, when was the last time someone did one post ban? The only other one I can think of is Shawn Michaels against Cena at WrestleMania 23, on the steps no less. But was there another one besides that?
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Nov 2, 2014 18:14
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I believe Kurt Angle delivered one to an opponent after exposing the concrete floor at ringside. They made a big deal about it at the time.
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Nov 2, 2014 18:43
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Boardroom Jimmy posted:Speaking of the piledriver ban, before the one Punk did against Cena, when was the last time someone did one post ban? The only other one I can think of is Shawn Michaels against Cena at WrestleMania 23, on the steps no less. But was there another one besides that? Dreamer against RVD on WWECW in 2007 as well, sometime later in the year (November, I believe).
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Nov 2, 2014 19:40
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Dead Snoopy posted:I believe Kurt Angle delivered one to an opponent after exposing the concrete floor at ringside. They made a big deal about it at the time. Angle was the victim. Austin did it on Smackdown during the "Austin is the paranoid WWE champ" days.
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Nov 2, 2014 19:52
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Luigi Thirty posted:What's the stupidest and worst Warrior match I can find on the Network? Gassed by his entrance, does nothing but clotheslines, etc. Wrestlemain 12. He squashes the hell out of triple h amd thats basically it. A cheap match for a wrestlemania card and a cheap way for hellwig to get an easy payday. Fall brawl '98. Despite not technically being in the match, he did do a run in near the end. He tore his bicep muscle and twisted an ankel for 5 minutes of work. Plus he has perhaps one of the worst finishers of all time.
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Nov 2, 2014 21:04
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Such a clumsy bastard. State of him.
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Nov 2, 2014 21:16
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That said, I love the retirement match vs Savage at Wrestlemania 7. It tells such a story from the very beginning to the end with both of them freaking out at not being able to finish the other guy, then Savage wipes himself out going for one big move too many, and Warrior just kind of beats him unconscious until his career ends. Amazing stuff.
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Nov 2, 2014 21:23
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Timby posted:It was later than that, Foley was doing his piledriver up until his first retirement in 2000. Yeah, it's better to say, "Unless you're Taker or Kane or someone who absolutely has Vince's trust, don't do piledrivers." So we get the Foley ones, and Lawler, and the one that Punk did on Cena last February. That would probably have seriously cost Arn Anderson, who was the road agent for that match, except Cena said that he called for it in the ring and it was entirely his responsibility.
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Nov 2, 2014 23:24
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A couple of years before (or maybe he already was then) retired to become a color commentator, there was an episode where Tazz was a ring announcer introducing Edge and Christian. He would introduce them repeatedly as "Edge and Chrischunnnnnnn" then just laugh at himself repeatedly. Was that an angle or just an unexplained one time thing?
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Nov 3, 2014 00:24
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Disharmony posted:A couple of years before (or maybe he already was then) retired to become a color commentator, there was an episode where Tazz was a ring announcer introducing Edge and Christian. He would introduce them repeatedly as "Edge and Chrischunnnnnnn" then just laugh at himself repeatedly. Was that an angle or just an unexplained one time thing? Was that the episode where he introduced Rikishi as "weighing in at nine thousand pounds"?
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Nov 3, 2014 00:53
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