|
In the winter wonderland of Finland, we have E85 in addition to the normal trio of 95E/98E/Diesel. Though mostly limited to a specific cold station chain, but it's available. And to keep somewhat on topic, that leads to fun news when someone notices that E85 is some 40 Eurocents cheaper than 95E, and assumes it's just some cheaper version of regular gasoline. Few kilometers later they'll find out in very expensive way that no, it isn't 
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 14:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 28, 2024 23:40 |
|
|
Can't most modern cars run on E85? Or is that E15?
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 14:46
|
|
|
bolind posted:Can't most modern cars run on E85? Or is that E15? E15. E85 will cause problems with most cars without at least a retune and possibly an injector/fuel pump upgrade.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 15:05
|
|
|
bolind posted:Can't most modern cars run on E85? Or is that E15? E15. Most cars outside of certain GM/Ford/Chrysler (and that Koenigsegg, where they just spliced in a GM ECU module from an old Impala, just so Koenigsegg can claim to have the only E85 capable supercar int he world ) vehicles don't work with E85 from the factory. The only reason the Detroit 3 do it is because they get a substantial break on their CAFE numbers by having the capability. That exemption is going away or has already gone away though which is probably why Ford isn't doing it much anymore.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 15:08
|
|
|
some texas redneck posted:There's a lot of companies that market "Flex Fuel conversion kits" that seems to be nothing more than a plug that goes between the injectors and harness, and the MAF, and a secret black box. What it amounts to is a fuel mix sensor that determines what the percentage of ethanol is (to handle if you have a half tank of regular and fill the rest with E85, etc) via the capacitance of a certain volume of fuel*, and an ECU that is aware of said sensor and knows what to do with its value, which is basically injector pulse width and spark advance changes in the map. Oh, and fuel lines and O-rings that don't dissolve in ethanol. The sensor is stupid expensive and it's a pretty silly system overall, really. * ethanol has a very different dielectric coefficient than gasoline, which means you can tell what the ratio is by measuring the capacitance of a known volume of fluid between two fixed plates. The way this actually works generally is you build an astable multivibrator with the sensor as the capacitor and measure the frequency of the resulting signal. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 15:25
|
|
I know my engine CAN run on E85, with the right programming (it's been offered in other cars as a Flex Fuel engine), but the year model I have doesn't have an ECU capable of switching automatically between E85 and normal gasoline. And my car is a bit of a unicorn fart in that it's a Chevrolet (Vauxhaul?) Cobalt disguised as a Saturn, and the ECU has to be paired with the Saturn electronics. Only the last year Ion (07) got the most advanced ECU, and GM didn't really start pushing flex fuel on their smaller stuff until after the Ion had been discontinued.
|
InitialDave posted:Yeah, bowser is a generic term for something used to store/distribute liquids, like a water or fuel tank on a trailer. Using it as slang to refer to a service station fuel pump makes perfect sense. It's not really slang, it's very old timey and hardly used these days (or should I say "nowadays"?) Our fathers or grandfathers called them a bowser, as did the media went reporting "price at the bowser". But these days most people and media just say 'pump'.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 17:51
|
|
|
bolind posted:Can't most modern cars run on E85? Or is that E15? Most servos doing the switcharoo will only use E10 or E15 (10% or 15% ethanol). E85 is 85% ethanol and most manufacturers won't back it unless sweet government funding received to design a car that can run it. They probably can, but who knows? Anyway, why would they have interest in lower quality fuel that gives them a worse fuel efficiency rating just to make some farmers happy?
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 17:58
|
|
|
Throatwarbler posted:-That exemption is going away or has already gone away- Pretty sure it's already gone. A huge headache for auto manufacturers is that they have to do their emissions testing and calibration for different fuels, which is a huge burden for them to overcome to make an alternative fuel like E85 viable.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 18:01
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 20:57
|
|
|
that a muncie 4 speed?
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 21:01
|
|
|
Bugger. (Ford Type 9?)
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 21:05
|
|
|
Not mine. Mustang T5. Well, T4 now, I suppose.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 21:06
|
|
|
iamthehans posted:that a munchied 4 speed?
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 21:08
|
|
|
Fo3 posted:Most servos doing the switcharoo will only use E10 or E15 (10% or 15% ethanol). E85 is 85% ethanol and most manufacturers won't back it unless sweet government funding received to design a car that can run it. They probably can, but who knows? Anyway, why would they have interest in lower quality fuel that gives them a worse fuel efficiency rating just to make some farmers happy? For the benefit of American goons, "switcharoo" is the slang term for an antipodean marsupial that has had gender reassignment surgery. Identifiable by the lipstick and the abdominal stitches.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 21:51
|
|
|
kastein posted:What it amounts to is a fuel mix sensor that determines what the percentage of ethanol is (to handle if you have a half tank of regular and fill the rest with E85, etc) via the capacitance of a certain volume of fuel*, and an ECU that is aware of said sensor and knows what to do with its value, which is basically injector pulse width and spark advance changes in the map. Oh, and fuel lines and O-rings that don't dissolve in ethanol. Sorry to derail further but does this go beyond the normal knock sensing stuff that cars do to switch between different octane rated petrol?
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 22:13
|
|
|
bobbilljim posted:Sorry to derail further but does this go beyond the normal knock sensing stuff that cars do to switch between different octane rated petrol? Related to a horrible design failure, one of our work pickups, a '14 Tundra was confused as to what fuel it was running, and was feeding the engine Gasoline like it was E-85. The local dealer asked 'did you fill it up and then hit full throttle real soon?' well, yes, since we are working in a small town that's basically the only fill-ups we do. He said that will often trick the sensor into thinking it's E-85 and it will run terribly until the next fill-up or longer. They re programmed the computer to perhaps have a higher limit before making the change, but it was a confusing and annoying problem to have. The truck was very difficult to start since it was flooding constantly.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 22:21
|
|
|
GM has a fuel sensor in the line and will constantly adjust to different amounts of ethanol. So you can have half a tank or whatever and top it off with E85 and it will be fine. Some of the aftermarket tuner crowd have started using the oem flex fuel sensor to provide constant adjustment instead of just hoping the e85 from the pump is actually 85% ethanol. There's a pretty big variance from pump to pump and when you have a high strung turbo car tuned for a certain mix bad things can happen.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 22:26
|
|
|
jamal posted:GM has a fuel sensor in the line and will constantly adjust to different amounts of ethanol. So you can have half a tank or whatever and top it off with E85 and it will be fine. Some of the aftermarket tuner crowd have started using the oem flex fuel sensor to provide constant adjustment instead of just hoping the e85 from the pump is actually 85% ethanol. There's a pretty big variance from pump to pump and when you have a high strung turbo car tuned for a certain mix bad things can happen. This may or may not be because they make a lot of vehicles for Brazil. As I understand it, in Brazil, you basically have two pumps: E0 (or E15 or something?) and E100, and it's up to the consumer to determine what blend of ethanol they want in their vehicle. Therefore, something like the above-mentioned GM system makes a lot of sense.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 23:16
|
|
|
Saga posted:For the benefit of American goons, "switcharoo" is the slang term for an antipodean marsupial that has had gender reassignment surgery. Identifiable by the lipstick and the abdominal stitches. Wanted: Volunteers to help with the kangaroo gender reassignment surgery. The last lot seemed thin skinned. Fo3 fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Feb 23, 2015 |
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2015 23:25
|
|
|
totalnewbie posted:This may or may not be because they make a lot of vehicles for Brazil. French cars and VAG are very heavily invested in dual fuel systems for this exact reason and consequently south American markets are overrun with lovely euro hatchbacks.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 00:31
|
|
|
Throatwarbler posted:(and that Koenigsegg, where they just spliced in a GM ECU module from an old Impala, just so Koenigsegg can claim to have the only E85 capable supercar int he world I've heard that Koenigsegg holds a lot of and/or important patents related to flex fuel technology, and that a lot of their income actually comes from licensing that stuff so they can basically do what they want with the supercars. I can't find actual proof of that though, just a lot of people on the internet repeating the claim.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 06:28
|
|
|
Slavvy posted:French cars and VAG are very heavily invested in dual fuel systems for this exact reason and consequently south American markets are overrun with lovely euro hatchbacks. Random stuff i find on the internet suggests, in no particular order, VAG, FCA, GM, Ford, and Renault/Nissan hold the top spots. Surprised there's not more Japanese makers, considering the long history of Japanese/South American involvement.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 06:44
|
|
|
I saw a lot of VAG cars from their super lovely period in the late nineties down there and I have no idea what magic they're using to keep those cars running longer and more reliably than they do in North America
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 08:05
|
|
|
8ender posted:I saw a lot of VAG cars from their super lovely period in the late nineties down there and I have no idea what magic they're using to keep those cars running longer and more reliably than they do in North America An infinite supply of second hand spares from first world countries. See also: 80's/90's toyotas in the middle east, where rust is but a distant memory.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 09:24
|
|
|
Bear in mind continuing to churn out new examples of old designs is a tried and trusted method in those markets. I know for example VW kept making Mk4 Golfs for South America long after the Mk5 was released everywhere else.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 09:54
|
|
|
Hell they kept making the kombi until...2011?
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 10:38
|
|
|
They do it with Nissans, too. Behold the 2015 Nissan Tsuru: Looks awfully similar to the B13 Sentra, doesn't it? 
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 10:49
|
|
|
8ender posted:I saw a lot of VAG cars from their super lovely period in the late nineties down there and I have no idea what magic they're using to keep those cars running longer and more reliably than they do in North America Fugitive Nazis.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 11:12
|
|
|
Fucknag posted:They do it with Nissans, too. Behold the 2015 Nissan Tsuru: I'd love it if Toyota would do that with their camrys. The 1989 was a lovely car, very comfy and built like a tank. I guess some of the yaris drivetrains are still of that era
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 11:50
|
|
|
The flex fuel sensor system is what the Mighty Car Mod guys installed into Gramps to run E85. Helps that it was all managed by the top of the line haltec ECU...
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 12:12
|
|
|
totalnewbie posted:E100 100% ethanol you say? 
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 13:27
|
|
|
Unsure if there is a copy of this on youtube already, can't find it, so facebook video it is, sorry. https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152455925667322
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 17:15
|
|
|
kastein posted:Unsure if there is a copy of this on youtube already, can't find it, so facebook video it is, sorry. "I'm freeeeeeee!"
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 17:24
|
|
|
FogHelmut posted:100% ethanol you say?  
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 17:25
|
|
|
kastein posted:. Oh, and fuel lines and O-rings that don't dissolve in ethanol. Big problem for motorcycles. Gas stations aren't going to want to have separate pumps for E85 like they do for diesel. But if you have one pump that switches between E15 and E85 (like you do for different octane grades of E15), there's a new issue. Guy in a new multifuel-capable car pulls in and fills up his car with E85. Now there's a bit of E85 sitting in the hose. Next guy in line switches to E15 to fill his car. No big deal, the bit of E85 carryover in the hose isn't going to do much diluted in a full-size fuel tank of E15. But if the next guy in line's on a bike with a 4- or 5-gallon tank, then that's enough E85 in the hose to raise the ethanol concentration in his tank to well above E15. Ethanol in gas is retarded for so many reasons.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 17:41
|
|
|
kastein posted:What it amounts to is a fuel mix sensor that determines what the percentage of ethanol is (to handle if you have a half tank of regular and fill the rest with E85, etc) via the capacitance of a certain volume of fuel*, and an ECU that is aware of said sensor and knows what to do with its value, which is basically injector pulse width and spark advance changes in the map. Oh, and fuel lines and O-rings that don't dissolve in ethanol. Reminds me of when they did the ULSD switch in diesel, it was a death sentence for older Turbodiesels as it would destroy the rubber seals for the Injection Pump and would necessitate a rebuild within 1,000 miles
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 17:49
|
|
|
Phanatic posted:Big problem for motorcycles.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 17:50
|
|
|
Phanatic posted:Big problem for motorcycles. This seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen for gas station owners. I don't know what the regulations are, but I know that the weights and measures folks take gas pump accuracy pretty seriously, and it seems to me that if they fail to dispense fuel with the correct specs that is a problem for the gas station, not motorcycle owners.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 18:32
|
|
|
Every E85 pump I've seen had it's own nozzle.
jamal fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Feb 24, 2015 |
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 18:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 28, 2024 23:40 |
|
|
Taco Box posted:I'd love it if Toyota would do that with their camrys. The 1989 was a lovely car, very comfy and built like a tank. I guess some of the yaris drivetrains are still of that era You wish. I'd kill for an AE100 series corolla but brand new. 4AFE, manual trans, 500,000km of trouble free motoring. Bliss.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2015 19:09
|
|