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Clawshrimpy you've said you want to post better but do you mean it. Are you at least reading, understanding and reflecting upon what other people are posting? You're almost certainly going to ignore this question but I feel it needs answering. Do you actually want to change?
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Mar 29, 2015 02:22
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Clawshrimpy posted:Except when he hit rossiu and forced a Kamina speech down his throat you mean. You mean when he hit Rossiu stop him from committing suicide, which his tearful girlfriend was also there to stop, and which was only motivated by an undeserved sense of guilt he felt towards Simon, who actually felt no ill will against Rossiu? edit: If it makes you feel any better, in the compilation movie version of the scene his suicide attempt is stopped by his girlfriend walking up and smacking him.
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Mar 29, 2015 02:23
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I think the point is, why am I okay with Rossiu and why am I not okay with Gain? Because Gain rolled Kamina/Simon's worst qualities together with Rossiu's worst qualities into a perfect storm. Rossiu at least didn't bully people, simply thinking of the best situation from a pure political standpoint, which is still lovely, but still better than the alternatives in that show, but perhaps it'd have been easier if I gave up symphathizing with any character in GL after Simon transformed and accept there were no "good" character left after that point.
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Mar 29, 2015 02:24
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Answer my question please
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Mar 29, 2015 02:25
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Clawshrimpy posted:Except when he hit rossiu and forced a Kamina speech down his throat you mean. Rossiu was about to commit suicide needlessly. The punch made him stop, the speech made him reconsider shooting himself in the brain. Even if you may disagree with the particulars of the method and its delivery, it was dire circumstances in a one off scenario, not at all Simon's standard operating procedure as the leader of a society, which is what you claimed. And, again, that does not change that if anyone was 'forcing' a philosophy, that it was Rossiu, in the context of what happened. I realise that you may dislike the association if seen to follow back to what you feel, but that is what the show demonstrates. Most of the others who follow Simon's lifestyle do so because they themselves have chosen to, rather than being forced into it. You are taking exceptions as the rule, and ignoring rules to highlight exceptions.
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Mar 29, 2015 02:25
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I really do not think there's much point to this challenge if Clawshrimpy doesn't even attempt to critically think or evaluate things.
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Mar 29, 2015 02:26
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Number of people simon punched - 01: m-my self insert~
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Mar 29, 2015 02:27
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Clawshrimpy posted:I think the point is, why am I okay with Rossiu and why am I not okay with Gain? simon didn't transform, he grew up
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Mar 29, 2015 02:27
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Namtab posted:Clawshrimpy you've said you want to post better but do you mean it. Are you at least reading, understanding and reflecting upon what other people are posting? Yes, of course, I wanted to be able to try to fit in better, I hate being chased out of everywhere I go.
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Mar 29, 2015 02:28
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Shukaro posted:I really do not think there's much point to this challenge if Clawshrimpy doesn't even attempt to critically think or evaluate things. I have been attempting, look through my post history of the thread and beyond this one argument.
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Mar 29, 2015 02:28
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~snip~
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Mar 29, 2015 02:29
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I mean it is worth noting that Rossiu grew up in a society which sent the very weakest people out to die (which is closer to eugenics than this loving medicine thing that I haven't watched yet) and then grew up to attempt the same thing on a grander scale. He knew what he was doing.
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Mar 29, 2015 02:30
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Namtab posted:I mean it is worth noting that Rossiu grew up in a society which sent the very weakest people out to die (which is closer to eugenics than this loving medicine thing that I haven't watched yet) and then grew up to attempt the same thing on a grander scale. He knew what he was doing. I was forced to sympathize with him because after what happened to Simon, there were no characters left to sympathize with.
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Mar 29, 2015 02:31
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Namtab posted:Clawshrimpy you've said you want to post better but do you mean it. Are you at least reading, understanding and reflecting upon what other people are posting? Every complaint he voices is a temper tantrum against the very idea of changing (especially if it involves someone else acting in your interests), so you know the answer to this.
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Mar 29, 2015 02:32
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Oh Snapple! posted:Every complaint he voices is a temper tantrum against the very idea of changing (especially if it involves someone else acting in your interests), so you know the answer to this. Early on, people said I was doing better.....
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Mar 29, 2015 02:34
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Clawshrimpy posted:I was forced to sympathize with him because after what happened to Simon, there were no characters left to sympathize with. The only one who forced you to do anything was yourself, so that you could continue to demonize the show for not being GaoGaiGar. The show didn't force you to do anything though, because the show has no power over you. You chose to sympathize with him, perhaps unconsciously, but given your posts almost certainly based on your personal history with bullying, which to you exists as the single worst crime possible apparently and which you refuse to view in any other light. So, since this is such a big issue for you, I wonder if it wouldn't be productive to have you write out exactly why you think bullying is a bigger crime than the genocide Rossiu was trying to commit. To try to put it down in such a way as to explain it, not just to us but to yourself as well, so that you/we can see exactly why you think it's so awful, whether it be in the immediate or in the far reaching implications and repercussions. And also, why suicide is the preferable option to dealing with bullying. And no, I can't believe I just wrote that either - I certainly don't endorse it. Or at least, try to write it out, because I hope to god you fail in both instances and it plants some seeds of doubt in your mind as to the truth of those assertions which you seem to hold as true. tsob fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Mar 29, 2015 |
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Mar 29, 2015 02:39
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Clawshrimpy posted:I was forced to sympathize with him because after what happened to Simon, there were no characters left to sympathize with. You felt you had to, but that doesn't necessarily mean you actually did. Certainly, not to then gloss over his actions whilst blowing up other's. I get that's partly down to the autism and your own life philosophy versus that of the show, and so being able to accommodate the discrepancy might be difficult. But it might be worthwhile, maybe not with this show, but with another, to try and analyse a character that you see as, well, really not you. Just analyse what makes them tick, but to try to avoid making a judgement in the analysis. And if you've already tried that, then I apologise for not realising.
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Mar 29, 2015 02:39
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Clawshrimpy posted:Early on, people said I was doing better..... Step back, take a deep breath, and earnestly try to think about, respond to, and answer arguments, issues, and questions that people raise rather than handwaving them away or ignoring them completely. That is all that is required for this to be a functional two-way discussion. If you feel that you can just pick out some point someone raises, go along with that specifically for a bit, then post the next review to "reset" the discussion then there's no point in having a discussion at all. Edit: For starters, try this with the two perfectly reasonable posts above this.
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Mar 29, 2015 02:40
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Clawshrimpy posted:Early on, people said I was doing better..... The doublethink going on is frankly mind boggling. Like Simons whole thing is LITERALLY what you were saying with the tram dilemma, its impossible but he's determined to find another way because thats what he feels is right, and yet here you're saying its a "toxic" ideology. Stop projecting your weird personal issues onto things for the love of god.
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Mar 29, 2015 02:40
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Namtab posted:Clawshrimpy you've said you want to post better but do you mean it. Are you at least reading, understanding and reflecting upon what other people are posting? 
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Mar 29, 2015 02:42
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Namtab posted:
a cartoon duck posted:Are you currently seeing a therapist? 'cuz you have some serious issues to work through. Namtab posted:Clawshrimpy you've said you want to post better but do you mean it. Are you at least reading, understanding and reflecting upon what other people are posting? Artum posted:Stop projecting your weird personal issues onto things for the love of god.
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Mar 29, 2015 02:42
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This is why people are arguing with you on the internet, you're too quick to jump to the moral extreme and it's something you need to be aware of in your posting, which unlike real life you have the power to edit and think about before submitting.
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Clawshrimpy posted:I was forced to sympathize with him because after what happened to Simon, there were no characters left to sympathize with. You seem to be sympathising with Rossiu because of qualities he lacks, not because of any qualities he actually possesses. That seem like a backwards way of going about things.
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Mar 29, 2015 02:42
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Shukaro posted:Step back, take a deep breath, and earnestly try to think about, respond to, and answer arguments, issues, and questions that people raise rather than handwaving them away or ignoring them completely. That is all that is required for this to be a functional two-way discussion. If you feel that you can just pick out some point someone raises, go along with that specifically for a bit, then post the next review to "reset" the discussion then there's no point in having a discussion at all. I do that not to ignore, but I just plain don't know the answers to some of the point you guys are raising, or thinking about it causes me to meltdown and not be coherent enough to answer at all.
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Mar 29, 2015 02:43
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a cartoon duck posted:Are you currently seeing a therapist? 'cuz you have some serious issues to work through. Please answer this, by the way, because I assure you this bit is actually more important than improving your posting on internet message boards.
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Mar 29, 2015 02:44
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Clawshrimpy posted:I think the point is, why am I okay with Rossiu and why am I not okay with Gain? Your attitude about Rossiu is exactly how the show wants you to view Gain so I'm completely baffled that you can't manage it.
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Mar 29, 2015 02:45
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Clawshrimpy posted:I do that not to ignore, but I just plain don't know the answers to some of the point you guys are raising, or thinking about it causes me to meltdown and not be coherent enough to answer at all. It's a message board, people are gonna understand if you say something like "I want to think about my answer and will respond later". It's way better than not saying anything since people are gonna assume you're ignoring it.
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Mar 29, 2015 02:45
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tsob posted:The only one who forced you to do anything was yourself, so that you could continue to demonize the show for not being GaoGaiGar. The show didn't force you to do anything though, because the show has no power over you. You chose to sympathize with him, perhaps unconsciously, but given your posts almost certainly based on your personal history with bullying, which to you exists as the single worst crime possible apparently and which you refuse to view in any other light. I don't think bullying is a bigger crime than Genocide, it's just by that point of the show, Rossiu was the only character that didn't believe in Kamina's way, and the show just unforunately makes him horrible to make Simon correct in the worst way possible and I hated that.
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Mar 29, 2015 02:45
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I can understand that feeling, but in these cases, at least a small acknowledgement - ie, 'I don't know how to put it' or some such - will make clear that you have read it, and better help us understand your state of mind on each. Admittedly, the speed of these might get a little overwhelming, for which I again apologise, but I'm hoping we can maybe get the whole acclimating thing going.
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Mar 29, 2015 02:47
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Oh Snapple! posted:Please answer this, by the way, because I assure you this bit is actually more important than improving your posting on internet message boards. Yeah, I am.
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Mar 29, 2015 02:47
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Clawshrimpy posted:I do that not to ignore, but I just plain don't know the answers to some of the point you guys are raising, or thinking about it causes me to meltdown and not be coherent enough to answer at all. Then just do your best to mull over those feelings and put them into words. By not responding at all to logical arguments raised by multiple people you give the impression that those arguments, to you, are irrelevant which quite frankly is a core issue that hampers discourse and only antagonizes those trying to talk to you.
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Mar 29, 2015 02:48
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I think a big issue is that Clawshrimpy keeps associating every instance of aggressive wake-up calls/manning up with his own experiences, and so therefore any beneficial things that stem from that such as maturation, understanding the bigger picture, etc. he vehemently views as a negative development. I'm not the biggest fan of aggressive wake-up calls myself, but I know that it's effective for a good chunk of people in moving on with their lives. I also know that completely withdrawing from every problem to avoid pain seems like a solution, but it cuts you off from being able to relate to people, whether it be you agree or conflict with them. Basicallya cartoon duck posted:Are you currently seeing a therapist? 'cuz you have some serious issues to work through.
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Mar 29, 2015 02:49
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Clawshrimpy posted:I do that not to ignore, but I just plain don't know the answers to some of the point you guys are raising, or thinking about it causes me to meltdown and not be coherent enough to answer at all. Shrimpy, it might not seem like it, but that is not an inherently bad reaction. It means you are being challenged and that you understand that you are being challenged. When the initial visceral shock of that wears off, try musing about some things: How is it challenging you? Do you actually understand WHY it is challenging you? Is it because you can understand the other side of the argument and that scares or upsets you? If so, why is that? Is it some form of fear of being "wrong"? I understand that it's scary to look into the abyss, but it's the entire point of this exercise. It might not seem like it, but we really are here for you! This is YOUR safe space to explore your thoughts and feelings and understand what we are saying to you, how it makes you feel, and whether you can at least appreciate our opinions, if not always agreeing with you. None of us would put in any of the effort that we are if we didn't, at least on SOME level (since I can't speak for anyone but myself here) care about you or your well being or at least find interest in this endeavour. No one here is out to hurt you or "get" you, we're here to work with you. But you have to work too. Change isn't magical, it takes effort and it ain't easy. We're your friends. Let us help you help yourself.
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Mar 29, 2015 02:50
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shrimpy you should watch watamote
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Mar 29, 2015 02:51
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Paper Lion posted:Shrimpy, it might not seem like it, but that is not an inherently bad reaction. It means you are being challenged and that you understand that you are being challenged. When the initial visceral shock of that wears off, try musing about some things: I know, it's just I find it hard to respond when the thread starts moving faster, especially when I have seemed to have said something that upset everyone a lot, that's when it gets the hardest to respond coherently. Like what's happened tonight, and when all that posting about the thought experiments happened.
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Mar 29, 2015 02:52
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Smoking Crow posted:shrimpy you should watch watamote This would be a legit good idea considering all of those posts earlier yeah.
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Mar 29, 2015 02:53
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Clawshrimpy posted:I know, it's just I find it hard to respond when the thread starts moving faster, especially when I have seemed to have said something that upset everyone a lot, that's when it gets the hardest to respond coherently. As others have said, communicating to us "This is a difficult point you've raised and I have no immediate answer or understanding" lets us know that it's something worth investigating. Conversation can briefly halt and we can hone in on that topic and really dig into it together. It's a lot easier to go into those dark thoughtcaves with friends than it is alone! 
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Mar 29, 2015 02:56
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The key is communication. You have to understand what people are saying and be able to get your own ideas across properly, so disagreement isn't simply a result of failure to talk and is down to genuine differences that can be compared and discussed. Over the course of the thread lots of your problems or issues have just melted away simply by being able to engage with them properly enough that you can see them for what they are and cast them aside. Just keep going. Dehumanise yourself, and face to bloodshed.
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Mar 29, 2015 02:57
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Srice posted:This would be a legit good idea considering all of those posts earlier yeah. it's a nice light hearted high school funtime show
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Mar 29, 2015 02:59
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Clawshrimpy posted:I do that not to ignore, but I just plain don't know the answers to some of the point you guys are raising, or thinking about it causes me to meltdown and not be coherent enough to answer at all. I recommended this in the previous thread, but I'm going to recommend again that you look in to doing the Fast Forword program. I'm not a doctor, psychologist or neuroscientist, so I can't verify any of the claims that the company make, but the science behind it seems pretty solid from a lay point of view and they do talk about it helping grown ups as well as kids in everything from auditory processing (it's original purpose) to socializing and understanding literary concepts. I don't know how expensive it is, not whether you're in a position to afford it, but I do think it might be worth you looking in to, especially following the above answer. Here's a pretty good video with one of the original creators talking about what the program can do in general. There's probably better videos out there and I'm certainly happy to hunt for more info if you want it, but I think it could be really beneficial to you if you can actually do it.
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Mar 29, 2015 03:04
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Clawshrimpy posted:I have been attempting, look through my post history of the thread and beyond this one argument. In that case: Namtab posted:
You post in a world of moral absolutes wherein people are either good or evil, the meaning and motivations behind their actions are ignored by you. In general, people do things for a reason. This is called basic human motivation and you ignore it in favour of imposing what are frankly childish standards on everyone. Going back to the medication thing ages ago. I'm a community nurse for people with learning disabilities. I don't deal with life and death, but I can do understand how triaging works. Triaging works by allocating the limited resources available in a way that has the best effect. I work for the NHS, where a real life example may include deciding who will receive an organ donation and who won't. In this case there is only so much supply, which is why people will lose out and why careful decisions have to be made about who receives an organ. The people who make these decisions are not evil, just people who have to make tough choices. No amount of "trying hard" will help everyone which is why there are such strict eligibility rules. They are not "evil" for making these choices. In my own case, my limited resource is time, I have 37.5 hours in a week and quite a few people on my caseload. I have to use my time as effectively as possible, which means I have to prioritise certain patients over others depending on need. To treat everyone equally and devote the exact amount of time to everyone would result in my neglecting the most needy. I do my best to make the right decision and feel that I am not "evil" in the choices I make. In the case of the anim the limited resource was the medicine, and it had to be prioritised to those who were more likely to survive. The people who were ill and less lilkely to survive were given palliative care in order that they died with dignity. This is akin to medical decisions that relate to terminal conditions in real life. Lets say they had 100 units of medicine and 10 people. If 6 of those people required 14 units to treat, 3 required 20 and 1 required 30. Now we know with the benefit of hindsight that there was a secret stash of medicine, but for the time being all there is that we are aware of is 100 units. The correct answer would be to treat the 6 people who required the least units which would use up 84 units. This leaves 14 units in which to make the other 4 more comfortable, but means that you can effectively save 6 lives. On the other hand with your triage based on fear of eugenics or w/e. Everyone is given 10 units. Nobody is guaranteed a cure. You've created a situation where 10/10 may die unless something lucky happens, whereas my triage creates a situation where 4/10 die comfortably and 6 people live. Basically I'm glad that you don't have to make decisions about anyone but yourself dude. E: drat I missed a lot of posts while I was thinking about and editing my post to word my triage essay properly Namtab fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Mar 29, 2015 |
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Mar 29, 2015 03:05
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