Fiction Writing: Advice and Discussion

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newtestleper: Oct 30, 2003

LOU BEGAS MUSTACHE posted:

thunderdome has taught me that no one will like gimmicks or get subtle twists.

And hopefully that this isn't the reader's fault?

# ? Mar 24, 2015 05:49

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# ? Apr 29, 2024 14:07

angel opportunity: Sep 7, 2004; Total Eclipse of the Heart

If anyone can pull them off though, it's Benny

# ? Mar 24, 2015 12:26

Martello: Apr 29, 2012; by XyloJW

What's the consensus on this construction for dialogue attribution?

Martello said: "ESB is always a big crybaby about it when I do this in our writer's group."

I've seen it in Elmore Leonard's work so I figure it can't be wrong.

# ? Mar 24, 2015 14:07

angel opportunity: Sep 7, 2004; Total Eclipse of the Heart

Well, it's not standard, like at all. I really kind of hate it because it reads very choppy to me. If you were doing some kind of boring military science fiction (you probably are, lol) then I could see the choppiness making sense and maybe I could understand why you'd want to do it, but I still don't like it.

# ? Mar 24, 2015 14:23

Killer-of-Lawyers: Apr 22, 2008; THUNDERDOME LOSER 2020

What's the best way to do big jumps in time or location in writing? I've googled it and got a lot of conflicting advice, from you shouldn't have such jumps in short writing, to using transitory paragraphs always, to using something like *** being perfectly fine.

I never gave it much thought before I wrote my last entry in the Gamer dome, so once I realized I had no idea what I was doing I ended up doing a little of everything and I find it frustrating. I tried looking over some of the writing here, and I've seen a little of everything as well.

Do I just need to feel it out? Are there set rules I'm unknowingly violating? Should I have taken more creative writing classes? Why are we all here anyways?!

# ? Mar 24, 2015 15:01

angel opportunity: Sep 7, 2004; Total Eclipse of the Heart

Killer-of-Lawyers posted:

What's the best way to do big jumps in time or location in writing? I've googled it and got a lot of conflicting advice, from you shouldn't have such jumps in short writing, to using transitory paragraphs always, to using something like *** being perfectly fine.

I never gave it much thought before I wrote my last entry in the Gamer dome, so once I realized I had no idea what I was doing I ended up doing a little of everything and I find it frustrating. I tried looking over some of the writing here, and I've seen a little of everything as well.

Do I just need to feel it out? Are there set rules I'm unknowingly violating? Should I have taken more creative writing classes? Why are we all here anyways?!

http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/

Look through the stories this month and check the scene breaks they use, then check the last and first sentence in each scene. A lot are using a little graphic to indicate the scene break, others are using numbered chapters. I see lots of stories in Clarkesworld that use time gaps and scene breaks, so I think the "don't do big jumps in short fiction" is not really accurate. I see the argument for it, but if the story you are telling needs to happen in different times and locations, then that's that. There are certainly advantages to setting up a narrative so that it can be told in one linear scene with no breaks, but you really can't do that for many stories. If the characterization relies on someone changing over time, then you are going to need to have time jumps. An isolated incident that changes a character enough to be worth telling a story about it likely going to be a pretty intense incident that also lends itself well to being told in one straight narrative. You could also cheat slightly by telling one straight narrative but inserting some flashbacks so that you have a main narrative that doesn't jump around, but the flashbacks can give leeway to draw from events outside the immediate situation.

As far as how to make the jumps not awkward, it mostly will be practice. Looking through the CW stories this month, you see some good strategies. Slowly Builds An Empire has this device where the protagonist sees scenes from other worlds, and the beginning of one new scene is "The hallucinations started in summer." This line lets you know that enough time has passed that it's a new season without using a boring sentence like "Later that year," etc. Almost every new scene after the scene starting with "The hallucinations started in summer," begins with a one-sentence description of a hallucination. This works well because it was established with "The hallucinations started in summer," and each description is evocative and well written. These hallucinations serve as a transition that kind of resets your brain and gives you a break from "A happens, then B happens, then C happens." It also kind of tells you that "some time has passed" without even saying it.

It may also help during editing to make sure that each scene has some kind of core conflict or goal. Readers are much more likely to put something down after a scene break, or if the story is good, more likely to commit to reading the next scene even if they should be going to sleep or getting back to work etc. If each scene is interesting on its own, you increase the chances that people will want to continue reading. Having the first line grab attention, and having the conflict within the scene establish itself early on helps to hook the reader and make the point of the scene clear early on. The end of a scene should be some kind of mini-resolution rather than just meandering off, or ending because the characters are walking to a restaurant and you don't want to show them walking.

It will help you a lot to just write a draft really fast and not over-analyze this, then when you are re-reading/editing, a sloppy or awkward transition will probably jump out at you.

# ? Mar 24, 2015 15:25

General Battuta: Feb 7, 2011; This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

The best way to do it is to tell the reader you are in a new place or new time, if they need to know, and then go on with your new scene. There are no rules and a billion ways to do it. You could make big time and space jumps in a number of ways from this sentence!

quote:

"You know," Battuta said, peeling plastic soda rings off his seagull dinner, "I really regret telling Killer-of-lawyers there were no rules."

It was twilight. The twilight of mankind. For ten babbling years the language virus had ravaged humanity's texts and grammars.

quote:

They deplaned in Macau. Killer-of-lawyers choked down airport coffee and squinted at the sunrise. Out of habit they got the quote out of their wallet, laminated in stained bubbled plastic, and read it again, again. No rules. No rules. It felt like it had worn a groove in their eyeballs.

Inspired by angel opportunity here is a double jump I did in a CW story:

quote:

They try to cure her later, when she feels she�s done enough. But she�s made her choice, written her own story, and the PRPC protein isoform is loose in her mind. She�s not dreaming anymore. There�s nothing left in her to put into Aura�s song. Nothing she hasn�t already written there.

More than two seasons later, on the last day of her sanity, she comes to lucidity long enough to feel Tariune drawing her through the kerosene stink. Hears him say, as if from a great distance: �She will bear your name. She and all her descendants.�

She dies in madness. But it�s a death she chose.

***

The stars have gone out. The universe freezes in half-light. Even the singularities have started to evaporate.

The marathon is over. Existence has run its course.

There's a boring 'two season later', a scene break, and then quite a large jump!

# ? Mar 24, 2015 15:32

Killer-of-Lawyers: Apr 22, 2008; THUNDERDOME LOSER 2020

Cool, thanks for the advice! It looks like it's best to feel each transition out on it's own merits, which is good. My biggest worry after my last prompt was going back and being inconsistent, but I feel better knowing that it's OK to mix things up if it fits better.

# ? Mar 24, 2015 15:43

Martello: Apr 29, 2012; by XyloJW

angel opportunity posted:

Well, it's not standard, like at all. I really kind of hate it because it reads very choppy to me. If you were doing some kind of boring military science fiction (you probably are, lol) then I could see the choppiness making sense and maybe I could understand why you'd want to do it, but I still don't like it.

I really kind of hate you because you're a big dumb baby.

But IRL, I'm writing non-mil SF and it's not necessarily meant to be terse. I dunno I will look back at Leonard and see how he did it, or possibly find that I made it up and was hallucinating.

ESB saying it alone wasn't enough, but both of you together are starting to convince me.

# ? Mar 24, 2015 15:59

angel opportunity: Sep 7, 2004; Total Eclipse of the Heart

My thoughts on "standard" punctuation is that it basically is the most invisible thing you can do. Even though doing a : makes sense in a lot of ways, since it's not standard it draws attention and creates a very different feel. We tend to associate NAME: DIALOGUE with movie scripts, play scripts, video game subtitles, and any number of "less literary" mediums. If you have a mini scene that is two people talking to each other over a radio, I can see doing

quote:

JOHN: SOME CHOPPER FALLING DOWN OR SOME poo poo AK-47.
GRUFF BILL: YEAH, COLT CARBINE DESERT EAGLE SEMPER FI GOOD BUDDY.
JOHN: ON YOUR SIX, OUT.
...

Because in that situation tagging the dialogue with like "Gruff Bill grunted into the radio," and "John's voice crackled back out of the radio" is going to sound bad if they talk back and forth like ten times. But using NAME said: "Dialogue." Within a full novel would, to me, need to be for a specific reason. The only reason I can really think of is that it appears more terse, choppy, or direct. I can't help but read a colon as a longer pause than a comma.

# ? Mar 24, 2015 16:54

Benny the Snake: Apr 11, 2012; GUM CHEWING INTENSIFIES

angel opportunity posted:

If anyone can pull them off though, it's Benny

It wasn't on a lark, though. The one thing that was drilled into my head when I was on my high school paper was "human-interest stories"--you always write an article about an interesting person and their interesting story. And my intent was to write this tragic article about a man who created something with the best of intentions but because he compromises himself, his creation is ruined for himself and everyone else. It's the same kind of articles I enjoy reading from the LA Times and from other magazines online. From Maugrim's criticism, I focused too much on the human element and not enough on the explosion. On top of how the set up was too much and too boring as well. I really hoped that, as a writer, I would've kicked that habit by now.

Maugrim? Thanks for the criticism, man. I won't attempt the article narrative style again, or at least not without more consideration put into if it's right for the given prompt.

Benny the Snake fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Mar 24, 2015

# ? Mar 24, 2015 17:24

Sitting Here: Dec 31, 2007

Martello posted:

What's the consensus on this construction for dialogue attribution?

Martello said: "ESB is always a big crybaby about it when I do this in our writer's group."

I've seen it in Elmore Leonard's work so I figure it can't be wrong.

I like using a comma instead. Sitting Here exhaled a billowing cloud of smoke and said, "drat that's good poo poo."

Sometimes I'm really rude and use a comma splice with that same construction. Sitting Here put down the nasty-smelling blunt, said, "this is goddamned oregano!"

No one has scolded me for it yet.

# ? Mar 24, 2015 19:52

angel opportunity: Sep 7, 2004; Total Eclipse of the Heart

Sitting Here posted:

I like using a comma instead. Sitting Here exhaled a billowing cloud of smoke and said, "drat that's good poo poo."

Sometimes I'm really rude and use a comma splice with that same construction. Sitting Here put down the nasty-smelling blunt, said, "this is goddamned oregano!"

No one has scolded me for it yet.

Someone is about to

# ? Mar 24, 2015 19:54

Stuporstar: May 5, 2008; Where do fists come from?

If you have to ask, "Is this punctuation annoying?" it probably is and you should cut that poo poo out. I mean drat :cmon:

# ? Mar 24, 2015 20:00

Screaming Idiot: Nov 26, 2007; JUST POSTING WHILE JERKIN' MY GHERKIN SITTIN' IN A PERKINS!

BEATS SELLING MERKINS.

I'm thinking of writing a re-telling of the story of Beowulf and Grendel, but in a New York ghetto from the perspective of a young Mexican-American with the same style of language used in the original tale. Is this racist at all, or simply a bad idea? I know execution is key, but I'm not sure if the idea is worth exploring.

# ? Mar 24, 2015 20:12

General Battuta: Feb 7, 2011; This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

It could be racist or really awesome depending on how well you do it. How much time have you spent knowing and learning about the lives of Mexican-American people in ghettos? Are you from that kind of background? You're either ready to write it or you need to do work to get ready.

# ? Mar 24, 2015 20:22

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Screaming Idiot posted:

I'm thinking of writing a re-telling of the story of Beowulf and Grendel, but in a New York ghetto from the perspective of a young Mexican-American with the same style of language used in the original tale. Is this racist at all, or simply a bad idea? I know execution is key, but I'm not sure if the idea is worth exploring.

I think it sounds like a neat idea. As with all matters of PC, there are actually no forbidden topics and methods, but the further you go from the current orthodoxy the better you have to be.

Isms are just structures of cliche, which are by definition lazy generalisations. Don't be lazy, because that is bad writing.

But have a strong middle finger ready for people who say 'you can't do that'. What they should say is 'don't do that badly'

# ? Mar 24, 2015 20:40

angel opportunity: Sep 7, 2004; Total Eclipse of the Heart

I think trying to emulate the style of language will be the biggest issue. If you don't study English etymology or Shakespeare (preferably as part of a Master's or PhD program...) it seems unlikely you could pull it off. Remember all of the wordplay using outdated meanings of words that your 8th grade teacher had to explain to you, and even then you barely got it? Can you really come up with that stuff?

# ? Mar 24, 2015 20:45

Martello: Apr 29, 2012; by XyloJW

Stuporstar posted:

If you have to ask, "Is this punctuation annoying?" it probably is and you should cut that poo poo out. I mean drat

I already went back and made them all commas, ok grandma

# ? Mar 24, 2015 22:58

Martello: Apr 29, 2012; by XyloJW

also Elmore Leonard never actually used a colon that way, I was hallucinating like you on prescription meds

# ? Mar 24, 2015 23:00

Screaming Idiot: Nov 26, 2007; JUST POSTING WHILE JERKIN' MY GHERKIN SITTIN' IN A PERKINS!

BEATS SELLING MERKINS.

General Battuta posted:

It could be racist or really awesome depending on how well you do it. How much time have you spent knowing and learning about the lives of Mexican-American people in ghettos? Are you from that kind of background? You're either ready to write it or you need to do work to get ready.

sebmojo posted:

I think it sounds like a neat idea. As with all matters of PC, there are actually no forbidden topics and methods, but the further you go from the current orthodoxy the better you have to be.

Isms are just structures of cliche, which are by definition lazy generalisations. Don't be lazy, because that is bad writing.

But have a strong middle finger ready for people who say 'you can't do that'. What they should say is 'don't do that badly'

angel opportunity posted:

I think trying to emulate the style of language will be the biggest issue. If you don't study English etymology or Shakespeare (preferably as part of a Master's or PhD program...) it seems unlikely you could pull it off. Remember all of the wordplay using outdated meanings of words that your 8th grade teacher had to explain to you, and even then you barely got it? Can you really come up with that stuff?

I appreciate the advice. I'm really trying to avoid overt generalizations, give my own spin on the Grendel/Beowulf tale, and maybe have a little social commentary. For example, despite taking place in New York, the monster is free to rampage because the police refuse to investigate it because the victims are all poor minorities, drug addicts, or gang members. I also had an idea for a scene where one of the witnesses to the monster's rampage is an old, crippled drug addict -- the scene between him and the main character ("Carlos" for now, until I find a good pun reference for Beowulf in Spanish) would resemble something out of legend where the hero meets with a wizened wise-man.

It sounds silly to me, but I really want to give it a shot. I like the idea of meshing ancient epics with a modern setting.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 00:31

Martello: Apr 29, 2012; by XyloJW

Literally it'd be Abejalobo but that sounds dumb and is way too long. I guess it could be his last name. Carlos Abejalobo.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 01:15

Sitting Here: Dec 31, 2007

Screaming Idiot posted:

I appreciate the advice. I'm really trying to avoid overt generalizations, give my own spin on the Grendel/Beowulf tale, and maybe have a little social commentary. For example, despite taking place in New York, the monster is free to rampage because the police refuse to investigate it because the victims are all poor minorities, drug addicts, or gang members. I also had an idea for a scene where one of the witnesses to the monster's rampage is an old, crippled drug addict -- the scene between him and the main character ("Carlos" for now, until I find a good pun reference for Beowulf in Spanish) would resemble something out of legend where the hero meets with a wizened wise-man.

It sounds silly to me, but I really want to give it a shot. I like the idea of meshing ancient epics with a modern setting.

sorry if this is a dumb question, but why do you want to combine all of those elements in particular?

# ? Mar 25, 2015 01:31

Stuporstar: May 5, 2008; Where do fists come from?

Martello posted:

also Elmore Leonard never actually used a colon that way, I was hallucinating like you on prescription meds

Go cut yourself a switch. Imma gonna paint that rear end red, boyo.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 01:53

POOL IS CLOSED: Jul 14, 2011; I'm just exploding with mackerel. This is the aji wo kutta of my discontent.; Pillbug

RedTonic posted:

I'm toxxing myself to have the second draft of this 102k mess done by March 31st as well. A normal person should be able to edit in that time, right? Ugh, this means I've got two threads.

Not sure how to make it easy for someone to verify that I'm not a shitlord. Should I just put a link to a gdoc with the original rough?

I finally finished the first revisions to my manuscript! Now I'd like to not look at this again for a few weeks. I'd rather not post a public link to the gdoc actually, but if anyone wants to ensure that there are actual words in sentences, I've got plat and can share. :v:

I guess I can volunteer Agent Cooper and Sodacan as witnesses too.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 02:37

Screaming Idiot: Nov 26, 2007; JUST POSTING WHILE JERKIN' MY GHERKIN SITTIN' IN A PERKINS!

BEATS SELLING MERKINS.

Sitting Here posted:

sorry if this is a dumb question, but why do you want to combine all of those elements in particular?

Honestly, I can't say for sure -- it came to me the other night when I should have been sleeping, and it won't wriggle away. I think it'd be a nice challenge, to combine mythic folklore with gritty urban drama and to do so respectfully and without falling into Dresden-levels of schlock.

Martello posted:

Literally it'd be Abejalobo but that sounds dumb and is way too long. I guess it could be his last name. Carlos Abejalobo.

I thought about just making his last name Lobo, keeping the "-wulf" aspect intact while making the connection slightly less obvious.

# ? Mar 25, 2015 19:39

Tyrannosaurus: Apr 12, 2006

Lobo (or Lobos, Villalobos, etc) is one of those names that when I see it in fiction I automatically roll my eyes.

# ? Mar 26, 2015 02:41

Screaming Idiot: Nov 26, 2007; JUST POSTING WHILE JERKIN' MY GHERKIN SITTIN' IN A PERKINS!

BEATS SELLING MERKINS.

I'm probably just going to cut out most of the overt Beowulf references and diversify the mythology a bit -- it'd make for a richer, more detailed story in the end, and it'd be easier to write as my grasp on classical English is doubleplus ungood. I also feel there's something vaguely racist about using traditionally "white" mythology to tell a story about a Mexican-American, something artificial. I'll keep the Beowulf story structure of course as it's one of the basic foundation of literature, but I'll stick with modern lingo.

# ? Mar 26, 2015 20:40

angel opportunity: Sep 7, 2004; Total Eclipse of the Heart

Screaming Idiot posted:

I'm probably just going to cut out most of the overt Beowulf references and diversify the mythology a bit -- it'd make for a richer, more detailed story in the end, and it'd be easier to write as my grasp on classical English is doubleplus ungood. I also feel there's something vaguely racist about using traditionally "white" mythology to tell a story about a Mexican-American, something artificial. I'll keep the Beowulf story structure of course as it's one of the basic foundation of literature, but I'll stick with modern lingo.

Shakespeare is actually "early modern era" not classical.

Here are the pronouns, don't gently caress them up

Also if you do perfect tense with a verb that involves motion, you want to use "to be" as the auxiliary, for instance "he is gone to Denmark" not "he has gone to Denmark," there's all kinds of rules and stuff...and if you gently caress them up it will look bad.

# ? Mar 26, 2015 20:47

Nitevision: Oct 5, 2004; Your Friendly FYAD Helper
Ask Me For FYAD Help
Another Reason To Talk To Me Is To Hangout

Screaming Idiot posted:

I'm probably just going to cut out most of the overt Beowulf references and diversify the mythology a bit -- it'd make for a richer, more detailed story in the end, and it'd be easier to write as my grasp on classical English is doubleplus ungood. I also feel there's something vaguely racist about using traditionally "white" mythology to tell a story about a Mexican-American, something artificial. I'll keep the Beowulf story structure of course as it's one of the basic foundation of literature, but I'll stick with modern lingo.

What if you just made a new story up, OP

# ? Mar 28, 2015 18:26

Martello: Apr 29, 2012; by XyloJW

angel opportunity posted:

Shakespeare is actually "early modern era" not classical.

Here are the pronouns, don't gently caress them up

Also if you do perfect tense with a verb that involves motion, you want to use "to be" as the auxiliary, for instance "he is gone to Denmark" not "he has gone to Denmark," there's all kinds of rules and stuff...and if you gently caress them up it will look bad.

What does Shakespeare have to do with Beowulf?

# ? Mar 28, 2015 21:08

angel opportunity: Sep 7, 2004; Total Eclipse of the Heart

O poo poo, I thought he said he was going to do it in Shakespeare-era English...but he's apparently going to do it in old English?

# ? Mar 28, 2015 22:52

Martello: Apr 29, 2012; by XyloJW

I think he wants to use Old English-like sentence structure and word choice, like Heaney's translation of Beowulf or something.

# ? Mar 28, 2015 22:58

Megazver: Jan 13, 2006

If you at a skill level where you're asking writing advice from goons, maybe you shouldn't take on a project of doing a stylistic remake of a piece of medieval literature that you apparently don't even know that well.

# ? Mar 29, 2015 00:10

Remora: Aug 15, 2010

Megazver posted:

If you at a skill level where you're asking writing advice from goons, maybe you shouldn't take on a project of doing a stylistic remake of a piece of medieval literature that you apparently don't even know that well.

# ? Mar 29, 2015 00:12

Screaming Idiot: Nov 26, 2007; JUST POSTING WHILE JERKIN' MY GHERKIN SITTIN' IN A PERKINS!

BEATS SELLING MERKINS.

Megazver posted:

If you at a skill level where you're asking writing advice from goons, maybe you shouldn't take on a project of doing a stylistic remake of a piece of medieval literature that you apparently don't even know that well.

Screaming Idiot posted:

I'm probably just going to cut out most of the overt Beowulf references and diversify the mythology a bit -- it'd make for a richer, more detailed story in the end, and it'd be easier to write as my grasp on classical English is doubleplus ungood. I also feel there's something vaguely racist about using traditionally "white" mythology to tell a story about a Mexican-American, something artificial. I'll keep the Beowulf story structure of course as it's one of the basic foundation of literature, but I'll stick with modern lingo.

# ? Mar 29, 2015 19:44

HIJK: Nov 25, 2012; in the room where you sleep

So you would in fact not be retelling Beowulf at all since you're now excising the most valuable elements of Beowulf that separates the poem from other literature. You would in fact be rehashing The Legend of Zelda. Complete with wise men.

# ? Mar 29, 2015 20:30

newtestleper: Oct 30, 2003

HIJK posted:

So you would in fact not be retelling Beowulf at all since you're now excising the most valuable elements of Beowulf that separates the poem from other literature. You would in fact be rehashing The Legend of Zelda. Complete with wise men.

I don't think this is necessarily fair. It is possible to have a retelling of a story that remains stylistically faithful to the source while significantly differing in plot. I don't think you should listen to people telling you that this is a bad idea, especially if it's a thunderdome entry.

Some of my worst entries have been stories where I stepped outside my comfort zone, and while they were abysmal things I learned a huge amount from them. I have also stepped outside my comfort zone and written things I was happy with and learned from that, too.

I think you should try it out, cast a harshly critical eye over it, get feedback, and consider whether it was a worthy endeavour. If anything I would be more worried about making sure your portrayal of cultures/classes you're not part of is sensitive.

# ? Mar 29, 2015 20:43