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Seriously though, if you can't imagine a use for sniper rifles in a game built around parkour and speed, you're not trying very hard. In some ways it's actually easier to use a gun that only needs to hit once while you're bouncing off the walls, instead of something that has to stay on target over time. And there's a certain je ne sais quoi about nailing some badass in the head from across the map while kick-sliding underneath a hail of laser fire. Of course, I played my share of MDK when I was growing up, so the concept of 'extremely agile assault sniper' may be more familiar to me than some. Caffeine IV posted:Punchthrough is always awesome if you can fit it, since a bullet that hits three guys is basically doing triple the damage it would've otherwise. Some weapons with on-hit effects will also generate more of those with punchthrough (e.g. the Amprex chains lightning off of every body the main beam hits). I wouldn't value it over more damage in higher tiers, though, since most of the danger comes from Bombards and other things y'need to kill off fast, rather than swarms. This guy gets it. There is simply no way to mow down crowds as effectively without punchthrough as you can with it. Also, it's really cool and useful to be able to hit enemies through solid objects, not just a gimmick but genuinely useful in some difficult situations. Even if it weren't as useful as it is, so few games allow you to do awesome things like shooting people above you through the floor that you're missing out if you don't take advantage of it. Shred should go on any primary that doesn't have some weird explicit reason to not have punchthrough, like how Ogris rockets used to be able to clip through the world without exploding if you had punchthrough on it. You don't really need Metal Auger, it provides so little additional benefit over Shred in exchange for a big increase in cost and the lack of Shred's fire rate bonus. On secondaries, I will sometimes forma a slot specifically for Seeker on weapons that are worth putting several forma into anyway. It makes a big difference on a Brakk, but on others like the Marelok it's harder to justify if you're not really into punchthrough, since no punchthrough mod is as good as Shred. If you do run one, keeping it partially ranked to about the same punch rating as Shred helps with the mod point cost.
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Apr 14, 2015 07:18
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Cathair posted:Haha, bows aren't good because they can do stealth kills that no one gives a poo poo about 90% of the time, they're good because they do a shitton of damage per shot. Since there are some things in the game that do take more half a second to gun down, bows have a useful niche, trading crowd management for the ability to efficiently murder high-value targets like heavies and bosses. Also, punchthrough helps a ton with the general usability of such relatively slow-firing weapons. Reminder that in older builds nobody gives a poo poo about bows until they upped the damage to like, 1000% or something ridiculous like that then they became what sniper rifles are supposed to do. Sniper rifles need some advantages to be viable: innate punch-through like bows, huge damage like bows and maybe even a scope that works like the scanner, showing enemies behind walls and objects. And throw in the ability to ignore nullifier bubble, it would become a nice variation on your arsenal.
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Apr 14, 2015 08:06
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Why not just make the bows and sniper rifles count as one class and get rid of stupid split poo poo like arrow/sniper mutators and different mechanics? Who cares if they're not different enough? Do they really have to be if one of them is in a good place and they can't come up with a way to get the other type there?
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Apr 14, 2015 08:10
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Speaking of bows, what's a good bow if you don't have the stalker one? edit: I'm guessing paris p is a solid bet since it's the only prime bow?
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Apr 14, 2015 08:12
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Paris Prime is the one you want if you don't have Dread, yes.
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Apr 14, 2015 08:36
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Cathair posted:In some ways it's actually easier to use a gun that only needs to hit once while you're bouncing off the walls, instead of something that has to stay on target over time. And there's a certain je ne sais quoi about nailing some badass in the head from across the map while kick-sliding underneath a hail of laser fire. Welcome to Conclave, here's your Lex.
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Apr 14, 2015 09:04
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Is the lex not garbage? That rate of fire was murderously slow. Or I guess the prime is better and forma'd.
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Apr 14, 2015 11:16
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RosaParksOfDip posted:Is the lex not garbage? That rate of fire was murderously slow. Or I guess the prime is better and forma'd. The lex is powerful enough to one or two shot people in conclave. This makes it one of the best guns in there.
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Apr 14, 2015 11:20
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One thing about snipers is that they should always be hitscan and reward people for headshots a ton, otherwise you might as well just have a bow (and bows were balanced fairly well with the impact / momentum damage that makes them fun to use). If headshots / weak spot hits by snipers resulted in AoE damage upon death to the enemy that scaled, it would be very plausible to do massive amounts of damage to hordes by just head-shotting enemies constantly. However, this makes no sense physically with classic sniper weapons being very bad at anything but taking out a single high-priority enemy with reliability. Maybe they could automatically make all sniper shots weak spot shots or something? I dunno, making snipers attractive in this game is not easy if you ask me. Maybe it'd be better to introduce new gameplay types with really drat hard enemies that snipers excel at taking down where every other weapon would be cumbersome.
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Apr 14, 2015 11:27
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Malachite_Dragon posted:Paris Prime is the one you want if you don't have Dread, yes. I noticed my Paris Prime wasn't at 30 the other day, so I took it there, then formad it. I compared it and Dread via the wiki, and they're very similar, except one does slash damage and the other does puncture. Is there any other real difference that puts the Dread above the Paris Prime?
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Apr 14, 2015 11:57
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Cathair posted:Seriously though, if you can't imagine a use for sniper rifles in a game built around parkour and speed, you're not trying very hard. The sniper "niche" is killing heavies super fast. This is already accomplished by all of the upper tier guns. sorry.
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Apr 14, 2015 12:36
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Rgr thanks for the replies all, specifically the weapons I was contemplating putting Seeker on was the Brakk (shotgun pistol kinda makes it sound amazing), the Vaykor (I tens to use this for mid to long range sniping so I was leaning for more damage per shot) and Despair/Hikou P. It sounds better on Despair because of its lower ROF but I'm finding it a hard mod to judge. I'll pick up that Nyx Aug too, I've got a spare slot and Pacifying Bolts have really impressed me so far.
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Apr 14, 2015 13:10
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necrobobsledder posted:One thing about snipers is that they should always be hitscan and reward people for headshots a ton, otherwise you might as well just have a bow (and bows were balanced fairly well with the impact / momentum damage that makes them fun to use). If headshots / weak spot hits by snipers resulted in AoE damage upon death to the enemy that scaled, it would be very plausible to do massive amounts of damage to hordes by just head-shotting enemies constantly. However, this makes no sense physically with classic sniper weapons being very bad at anything but taking out a single high-priority enemy with reliability. Maybe they could automatically make all sniper shots weak spot shots or something? I dunno, making snipers attractive in this game is not easy if you ask me. Maybe it'd be better to introduce new gameplay types with really drat hard enemies that snipers excel at taking down where every other weapon would be cumbersome. Maybe they could add a special proc only sniper rifles get: a proc chance that does damage equal to the enemy's 35% of maximum health. Meaning, on top of its base damage, you could kill any HP-sponge enemy in 2-3 hits while making it not worth using against swarms of grunts since mowing them down with your rapid fire secondary would be more effective. The proc doesn't work on bosses of course.
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Apr 14, 2015 13:41
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Malachite_Dragon posted:I'm honestly failing to see any place Sniper Rifles could fit into in a game built around speed and parkour. Give all sniper rifles some form of multi-hit effect like the Opticor has. Ricocheting to multiple targets, explosive ammunition, enemies explode on death, etc. Now the Vulkar is a man-portable autocannon and the Vectis makes you feel like some hot poo poo marksman as you snipe like, eight guys with one bullet.
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Apr 14, 2015 14:09
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pyromance posted:Why not just make the bows and sniper rifles count as one class and get rid of stupid split poo poo like arrow/sniper mutators and different mechanics? Who cares if they're not different enough? Do they really have to be if one of them is in a good place and they can't come up with a way to get the other type there? The mutator split is because bows and snipers are in mutually exclusive branches of the object hierarchy, even if they both use sniper ammo. Thus they need different mods. (In fact if that weren't the case you'd be able to have a single mutator for every single weapon)
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Apr 14, 2015 14:37
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Tallgeese posted:Honestly, with how much they love Nullifiers, I'm surprised they don't make some Nullifier Manic. the manics are already mini nullifiers. they can dispel your warframe powers, as I found when I was in the rift as limbo and one still managed to loving pounce on me.
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Apr 14, 2015 15:56
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Just turn the sniper rifles into anti-tank cannons that literally explode enemies and make them all about massive single-target damage (higher than bows) at the expense of being worse at general combat than bows. And while I'm suggesting changes that will never be made, quadruple the ammo count and pickup rate of all auto pistols. e: vvvvv DE really doesn't seem to like it when players actually use warframe powers Ferrovanadium fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Apr 14, 2015 |
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Apr 14, 2015 16:02
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Manics can also pounce on a Valkyr and kill her through her ultimate. Truly a rewarding gameplay experience 
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Apr 14, 2015 16:05
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How does that even make sense?
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Apr 14, 2015 17:37
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Opticor having its AoE might have been a sort of beta test by DE to see how we'd react to it before trying to make all snipers do damage that way. I think it'll be easier for DE to just make another game type where you need to take out targets at a distance or something and make sniper weapons all silent by default to avoid alerting enemies across the level. A mechanic that lets you explode bodies from a bullet the same way that molecular prime does would totally be cool with me though. Maybe if it's a one-shot kill with a sniping weapon you get that effect, I dunno. wid posted:Maybe they could add a special proc only sniper rifles get: a proc chance that does damage equal to the enemy's 35% of maximum health. Meaning, on top of its base damage, you could kill any HP-sponge enemy in 2-3 hits while making it not worth using against swarms of grunts since mowing them down with your rapid fire secondary would be more effective. The proc doesn't work on bosses of course.
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Apr 14, 2015 17:39
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hooah posted:How does that even make sense? Her unending rage and hatred fueled into murder claws can be apparently be soothed by a (albeit aggressive) hug.
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Apr 14, 2015 17:39
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so tsundere~<3
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Apr 14, 2015 17:54
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wid posted:Sniper rifles need some advantages to be viable: innate punch-through like bows, huge damage like bows and maybe even a scope that works like the scanner, showing enemies behind walls and objects. And throw in the ability to ignore nullifier bubble, it would become a nice variation on your arsenal. They actually did give sniper rifles innate punch-through and a slight damage increase, problem is the numbers for both were just way too small. Vectis would be a perfectly useable gun (though I wouldn't say good), if it could get to 100% crit chance and had 2x the damage it does right now. As a comparison, the Dread has a faster reload speed, 2x the crit chance, does most of its damage as a single type, and on a charged shot deals comparable damage to a Vectis shot. If both crit, the Dread will do more damage as well, even though they share the same crit multiplier.
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Apr 14, 2015 21:10
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If they're willing to do the extra work, they could make sniper rifles good by turning them into a sort of Peacemaker mini-game. Was thinking something like the Grineer hacking game - the reticle does a semi auto aim when you zoom, and sweeps over the mob, if you hit it just at the right time then you get an automatic headshot and it auto aims to the next visible target, if you hit it again it auto aims again, etc. Sequence ends when you get hit (giving you an incentive to find a sniper nest or hang back) or run out of ammo. More forgiving sniper rifles maybe have a smaller clip and slower mini-game, and you can mod into higher skill levels with higher risk and payoff if you like. They will never do this, but then I said roughly the same thing about my suggested Slash Dash fix and two days later they announced plans to do almost exactly what I posted so hey
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Apr 14, 2015 22:12
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Snipers are bad but kind of parkour twitch sniping is kinda fun, maybe they should just rework them a little bit to be a bit faster and make some bigger tilesets that aren't that loving awful derelict one.
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Apr 14, 2015 22:27
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hooah posted:How does that even make sense? No clue, but the real kicker is their lunge-tackle-punch thing completely ignores armor too from what I could tell. Doing the first round of blackout had manic's killing my Valkyr from her full 800ish HP pool with a 9 pip steel fiber. Maybe next they'll unleash the Infested Nervos that do a 30 second high damage toxic bleed (that also turn off your warframe powers for the duration of course!!!)
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Apr 14, 2015 22:35
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maybe theyre trying to passively buff warframes with bad powers by making warframes with good powers unable to use them
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Apr 14, 2015 22:47
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Flipswitch posted:Snipers are bad but kind of parkour twitch sniping is kinda fun, maybe they should just rework them a little bit to be a bit faster and make some bigger tilesets that aren't that loving awful derelict one. All they need is for their fire rates and magazine sizes to be tuned up a bit, reload times tuned down, and headshot multipliers bumped up to 3x or 4x. Bam; they're fast enough to keep pace in fights against groups, but they can still slow down and make careful shots to take down big guys. They're lovely enough now that they probably don't need their damage brought down to compensate for all that stuff, but that should stay on the table.
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Apr 14, 2015 22:49
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Manics are just Grineer Nullifiers, except instead of forcing you to shoot the bigass bubble and then hit 4 from your bubble, they want you to walk around a bit and then hit 4 on reaction.
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Apr 14, 2015 23:28
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Male Man posted:All they need is for their fire rates and magazine sizes to be tuned up a bit, reload times tuned down, and headshot multipliers bumped up to 3x or 4x. Bam; they're fast enough to keep pace in fights against groups, but they can still slow down and make careful shots to take down big guys. They're lovely enough now that they probably don't need their damage brought down to compensate for all that stuff, but that should stay on the table. FirstPersonShitter posted:maybe theyre trying to passively buff warframes with bad powers by making warframes with good powers unable to use them Or they could be trying to reduce the importance of powers in gameplay. I can't think of anything involving nullifiers that isn't incredibly stupid.
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Apr 15, 2015 00:08
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The whole goddamn point of the Tenno is their being ninjas with magic powers from being keelhauled through the Void, though.
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Apr 15, 2015 00:27
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Denzine posted:You've created the Latron Prime(which is no longer obtainable) and to a lesser degree the Marelok, Lex Prime and so on. It's almost as if those weapons are good and fun. Warframe's horde-heavy encounter design forces a functional lower limit on fire rate for non-AoE weapons. In actual play, a gun has to be able to sustain a kill rate of X dudes/second to feel significant. Explosions are sort of outside a sniper rifle's conceptual sphere (excepting anti-materiel rifles, but those are a distinct thing-- although it's not a bad concept for the vectis) so we're left with rapid-firing sniper rifles like some sort of sci-fi Jerry Miculek. If that ends up encroaching on another weapon type's niche, so be it. Better to have overlap than garbage. It's not like we're strangers to overlap. Ultimately the most important thing is to retain mechanics to reinforce the concept of a sniper rifle (i.e. one perfectly placed shot, one kill) while also giving them enough juice to stay relevant within the game at large. However, I suspect that leaning on a higher headshot multiplier (which is already parameterized in the game; this might be a zero-code proposition) would make snipers feel different enough to justify themselves.
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Apr 15, 2015 01:27
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To add to the sniper rifle design document fanfiction going on-- I'd like to see them get a combo meter mechanic where scoring a headshot gives you X seconds of a much faster refire rate and a better critical multiplier/chance. Like, you hit one grunt in the head, get a few seconds of rapid-fire, high damage crits against the rest of the mob and, before the combo expires, you hit another one with a headshot, refreshing the timer and adding to the crit bonus. It would encourage precision play and crowd control, make sniping less tedious against mobs, and also might be Fun To Play With which is a feature that seems to go overlooked a lot.
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Apr 15, 2015 01:38
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They should just give sniper rifles 'smart bullets' that automatically chain to the next target. So you hit one, it factors penetration, aims for the next, hits, refactors penetration etc. That way sniper-rifles are good against single targets, and good against clumped targets.
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Apr 15, 2015 02:07
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And to add to the pile, make them interact differently with enemy defenses such as shields and armor.
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Apr 15, 2015 02:11
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Thor-Stryker posted:They should just give sniper rifles 'smart bullets' that automatically chain to the next target. So you hit one, it factors penetration, aims for the next, hits, refactors penetration etc. I'd be down for Rip Van Winkle sniper guns.
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Apr 15, 2015 02:14
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Thor-Stryker posted:They should just give sniper rifles 'smart bullets' that automatically chain to the next target. So you hit one, it factors penetration, aims for the next, hits, refactors penetration etc. Isnt that literally one of the awful clan sniper rifles?
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Apr 15, 2015 02:15
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SynthOrange posted:Isnt that literally one of the awful clan sniper rifles? Well, I'm not sure, but it describes the Amprex decently.
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Apr 15, 2015 02:18
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Oh yeah here it is quote:The Buzlok is a Grineer rifle that has homing capabilities. Firing while zoomed causes the weapon to fire a glowing projectile, or a tracer round, that sticks to its target, making all subsequent unzoomed shots home in on the marked target. Not what I was thinking of exactly. Oh well.
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Apr 15, 2015 02:20
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SynthOrange posted:Oh yeah here it is The Buzlok is the ZF-1 so it is automatically good. It also does good damage, has generous ammo, decent firing rate which helps too.
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Apr 15, 2015 02:22
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