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Lyrai posted:All DLC (Save for Humble Bundle and Loot Bag ( Sentries are a lot more useful than you are giving them credit for but you have to all-in on them and forget about anything else in technician so you have enough points to be an effective combatant. Bulletproof + ICTV + Armorer makes you incredibly resilient (I think your armor total is equivalent to your health total) and with decent weapons and movement skills you can easily pull your weight to mitigate......... sentry guns here is a level 98 build: http://pd2skills.com/#/v3/mda:eropkHIEFGDa:tQsNKHJGbDa:ghECa:feCa:ibcdea::: that is what I would call the finished build, I would cut the fugitive points first and then maybe ICTV if you really wanted to try it at a lower level. You can also climb enforcer with 4 points in saw instead of the lower tier stuff to keep some utility An important thing is that sentries seem useless when you use them for objective defense, because in the current game environment it is very rare that your front line is pushed all the way back to the objective. I would try to use them to cover your flanks as you stay pushed around your objective instead. It is also important that you limit the sentry's sightlines, because it'll shoot uselessly at cops waaaay beyond its range. For example: in the rats house, you want to make sure that a sentry on the first floor can not see out the windows to the front of the house or to the cliff or it'll shoot forever at those spawn points. Better is to place it beneath the window between the kitchen and cliff door so it can shoot at anyone who enters the house or through the windows, covering your back or keeping the first floor secure while you make a bag/ingredient run. Also consider keeping sentries in reserve and dropping them as a panic button or to drop them to cover bag moving. For example, in Big Bank instead of dropping sentries to cover the Beast (useless) you should wait until the vault door is open and then drop one inside the vault to hit cops who come pouring in where you don't have the cover of the vault door. You can also drop one when you are ready to push out from the vault. Weapon selection can be important too if you are planning on reloading sentries during long sieges like Cook off. Sentry reloading is all about ammo percentages so weapons with low ammo reserves but good pickup rates like Judge and GL40 are very good. Sniper rifles are also good because you can pick off shields before they get to your sentry to waste all its ammo. If you are good enough with your weapons to be ammo efficient, you can dump surplus into sentries. I've used this sentry build on 40 min cook-offs with GL40/loco and not touched an ammo bag once yet still kept my sentries topped up the whole time. You also have very good melee ability, so if a cop or two are on their own, feel free to shiv motherfuckers for free pickups. e: In summary: don't be a utility sentry technician, be an offensive senty techforcer. If you really want to get crazy, john murdoch can tell you about the wonders of Techghosting with ecm feedback Fellis fucked around with this message at 01:40 on May 30, 2015 |
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May 30, 2015 00:14
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)), and Infamy 13. Technican, I tried to build more as sort of utility of Drills + C4 + with 
sentry guns 
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Discendo Vox posted:Not bypassing armor- bypassing cover. I think the Deathvox endgame here is that turrets will shoot cloakers through walls at you. Imagine hundreds of instances of high pitched noises coming at you at 3000 RPM.
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May 30, 2015 00:17
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Fil5000 posted:I will not rest* until we get Gunther Hermann as a special. He will spawn with a skul gun and be impossible to kill unless there is a vending machine on the level. EAT THAT DIRT, LAPUTAN MACHINE.
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May 30, 2015 00:22
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UnknownMercenary posted:Not really? You can board up both windows where the vans will shoot from. Even for the escape directly in front of the bank's entrance, it's such a short distance you can run right past it in ICTV on Deathwish so long as you do it during the break. Running the bags across the street will work OK if you just carry them by hand, but that in and of itself means you are resigning yourself to a much slower way of moving the bags (compared to bucket-brigading it), and will frequently mean you need an extra break/assault wave to get your poo poo done!
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May 30, 2015 00:24
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This is all very useful information and I appreciate it. I'll start working with it!
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May 30, 2015 01:11
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Lyrai posted:This is all very useful information and I appreciate it. I'll start working with it! Awesome! Unfortunately a lot of the effectiveness of sentries is how you place them, and since they can't be moved, it is very punishing when you put them in a bad spot! Practice helps a lot. Also, Long guide sez: Refilling sentry ammo from 0% to 100% depletes all ammo of your primary and secondary weapon if they are both at full ammo. If one weapon, let's say the primary weapon, is at full ammo and you are out of ammo for the other one, the sentry is only refilled by 50%, but you only lost 50% ammo from your primary ammo pool, and the ammo pool for the secondary remains at 0. Refilling becomes twice as efficient if one weapon is completely empty i wouldn't go crazy trying to take advantage of that, but when you shoot one of your weapons dry it can but useful before you go clean up all the ammo pickups
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May 30, 2015 03:59
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Crabtree posted:On the one hand, they understand how stupid and bad it is to make people need to be in a group or require some stupid restrictive bit of code to use a mod is. On the other hand, they want to put in likely a similar kind of anti-cheat function that does nothing but cause problems in Hoxhud. Hopefully they don't crawl up their own rear end like oilpro or lose heart if they can't sway many of the hoxhud faithful. Given they have the mistakes of HoxHud to learn from, they might be able to pull off a decent anti-cheat. Not making bad assumptions and hard-coding variables for each map, for example. Hell, I'd probably be happy with suspicious behavior alerts, and let the host decide if it's kick worthy. I do like how BLT seems to have created a small explosion of mods, though.
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May 30, 2015 07:48
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What confuses me the most about the swat turrets is why they would put so much armor on a strobe light. 
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May 30, 2015 11:50
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isndl posted:Given they have the mistakes of HoxHud to learn from, they might be able to pull off a decent anti-cheat. Not making bad assumptions and hard-coding variables for each map, for example. Hell, I'd probably be happy with suspicious behavior alerts, and let the host decide if it's kick worthy. Not to mention the paragraph about how "No promise will be made that this will ever be a feature."
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May 30, 2015 12:24
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Goon cosplay you say ? WIP, now we need some adjustments on the tux, and some guns. And a tie.
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May 30, 2015 15:39
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Fellis posted:Awesome! Unfortunately a lot of the effectiveness of sentries is how you place them, and since they can't be moved, it is very punishing when you put them in a bad spot! Practice helps a lot. I just now took a look at that build, and honestly I think you would have a really strong argument for cutting Fugitive altogether and using those points to ace Bulletproof. Bulletproof Ace + Armorer means that all allies will be regenerating armor in 1.7 seconds, which is just over half of the speed of default (3 seconds). This presumes that your allies have Die Hard Ace (without it, it's something like 1.85 or 1.9 seconds), but most mature builds will include that skill so it's a fair assumption to make. I think we've really overlooked the usefulness of Bulletproof Ace because it didn't make that big of a difference prior to the advent of the skill decks. But now if you combine it with Liquid Armor, you eliminate about half of the downtime that your allies experience from being shot, and save them from being plinked to death by an rear end in a top hat cop while they're taking cover. If Ace Inspire is our pound of cure, I'm convinced that Ace Bulletproof is our ounce of prevention. It also gives you a coherent argument if someone snarks at you for bringing sentries. Just snark back that they can tell you you're not a team player when they regenerate armor in just over a second. Coolguye fucked around with this message at 19:56 on May 30, 2015 |
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May 30, 2015 19:48
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Coolguye posted:I just now took a look at that build, and honestly I think you would have a really strong argument for cutting Fugitive altogether and using those points to ace Bulletproof. Bulletproof Ace + Armorer means that all allies will be regenerating armor in 1.7 seconds, which is just over half of the speed of default (3 seconds). This presumes that your allies have Die Hard Ace (without it, it's something like 1.85 or 1.9 seconds), but most mature builds will include that skill so it's a fair assumption to make. Minor nitpick: Isn't it the case that the armor regen buffs are not additive? Which is to say that armor regen time would be 3.0 * 0.9 * 0.85 *0.75 = ~1.7, rather than 3.0 * (1 - (0.1 + 0.15 + 0.25)) = 1.5. It's not much of a difference, so I don't think it undermines your argument but  That aside, I think this is a good argument. Those 8 points in Fugitive are doing basically nothing, and cutting down armor regen time like that means going from having to stay in cover after having finished reloading to having your armor recharge before you're finished with most reloads.
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May 30, 2015 20:01
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I dunno, I just remember checking PD2skills a few months back when I had the question and noticing that Ace Bulletproof + Ace Die Hard + Teammate with Liquid Armor checked was 1.7 armor regen. I guess that means it's not additive but I didn't really give a poo poo about all that. It's 1.5 for the Armorer himself (since the deck gives a few other personal buffs to it) and 1.7 for everyone else who isn't a nerd and bought Die Hard, that's all I got.
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May 30, 2015 20:49
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Yeah, you're right. I missed that regen buff in Armorer for the perk deck user.
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May 30, 2015 20:52
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Coolguye posted:I just now took a look at that build, and honestly I think you would have a really strong argument for cutting Fugitive altogether the added mobility matters a shitload for ICTV users, I would be extremely reluctant to use any ICTV build that didn't have run and gun basic / shinobi basic. It's loving terrible to go without it. It's not like a dodge build where speed is literally life, but being able to reduce the amont of time you're out of cover by virtue of moving faster is a big, big upgrade to survivability, ability to do objectives, play heists, have fun, basically it makes everything better way more than acing Bulletproof. Not to say ace bp is bad, but against run and gun, I'd say it is. Ace bulletproof in a techforcer (or whatever) where you don't take C4 and you don't take Sentries, sure, but in anything else it's 8 points that will have a much bigger impact elsewhere. I mean this is a build which is already making the sub-par choice to bring sentries (sorry Fellis) ... let's not make it have both sentries and no mobility. Psion fucked around with this message at 21:27 on May 30, 2015 |
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May 30, 2015 21:23
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Psion posted:the added mobility matters a shitload for ICTV users, I would be extremely reluctant to use any ICTV build that didn't have run and gun basic / shinobi basic The build with aced BP keeps Shinobi, doesn't it? Dropping Run and Gun shouldn't be a huge issue, considering we didn't have Fugitive for a long time. And you know this is coming from someone who has to go fast all the time.
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May 30, 2015 21:28
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I honestly don't notice much of a difference between having and not having Run 'n Gun basic and I primarily use ICTV. I've spent a long time with it off as opposed to on while doing the infamy grind, since if I need a clutch skill and am searching for skill points, Fugitive's always first on the chopping block. It shows when we're doing a big sprint and I'm a few steps behind the crew, but walk speed is perfectly fine and you needn't drop Shinobi to get Ace BP in that build, which I agree would be pretty awful. A lot of this is historical, I think, just because we spent so goddamn long moving around like a slug due to the Ghost tier bonus being a thing. Now we just get it for free with our perk decks and life is a lot better. e: In other news, Para trip report: The good news is that the Para is definitely a very functional primary weapon, at least with Fully Loaded Basic. The hard 40 is a pointless one to hit for the weapon, though, since hard 40 requires something like a maximum of 12 accuracy, which basically means you're whiffing as many bullets as you're hitting. With 18 accuracy, though, it's vicious as hell. My current build includes the Auto Fire mod, though, and after a couple of runs with it I feel like it's probably best to not have that. I find myself using a fair bit of extra ammo on distant soft targets like squads of greens and snipers, so I'll probably continue to futz with the construction a bit. Hit my face on the stove with an Overkill Hoxbreak using the GL40/Para and capped 250/45 kills on Day 2, though, and I never needed to hit an ammo bag. Coolguye fucked around with this message at 21:52 on May 30, 2015 |
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May 30, 2015 21:45
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Run and gun isn't nearly as necessary as all that. If you can get it, great, but if you use those six points elsewhere you'll hardly notice.
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May 30, 2015 21:54
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LuciferMorningstar posted:That aside, I think this is a good argument. Those 8 points in Fugitive are doing basically nothing, and cutting down armor regen time like that means going from having to stay in cover after having finished reloading to having your armor recharge before you're finished with most reloads. Quoting you cause you had an easy summation of the argument. I don't disagree that the change you propose is a good one, but I believe that those extra points fall into the realm of personal choice. In any skill build (in any game) there is usually the core of the build and some leftover for customization. I personally gotta go fast, and I really try to not touch ammo bags too much and instead prefer to keep myself supplied via drops. I get a lot of use out of that 10% movespeed in this case but that is a playstyle choice. However, in certain groups I would easily use that variation had I considered it. Thanks for the advice Coolman and LucMo, finally uniting forces on this topic im so proud Psion posted:I mean this is a build which is already making the sub-par choice to bring sentries (sorry Fellis) Sentries are bad only because there are so many things in this game that are so loving powerful they make the game too easy and I'm bored to tears. So, in fact, sentries are good, because using them is interesting rather than seeing who can overextend the most and start the failure cascade whoops nevermind inspire saved us again. I actually started pubbing more because at least it makes the game interesting to see people gently caress up and get in bad situations instead of perfect 250+ kill Rats proverkill #69. Playing deathwish has helped too, but that is such a mess of design, ugh. Maybe I need to get into goonmod mutators. Sorry, not trying to start a fight Psion, just ranting in general and you triggered me greatly
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May 30, 2015 22:48
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If the game is getting too rote and easy for you the real solution is to pub deathwish. I am not joking.
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May 30, 2015 22:52
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Run and Gun isn't worth going into Fugitive for in ICTV because you won't be aiming down sights most of the time. 
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May 30, 2015 23:03
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UnknownMercenary posted:If the game is getting too rote and easy for you the real solution is to pub deathwish. I am not joking. I have. Transports too
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May 30, 2015 23:10
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Fellis posted:I have. Transports too Then make a public lobby for something stealth, including Car Shop.
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May 30, 2015 23:12
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Lemon Curdistan posted:Run and Gun isn't worth going into Fugitive for in ICTV because you won't be aiming down sights most of the time. If they put a laser on the Joceline I wouldn't need to ADS, but that's the price you pay to be the shieldfucker.
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May 30, 2015 23:15
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Lemon Curdistan posted:Run and Gun isn't worth going into Fugitive for in ICTV because you won't be aiming down sights most of the time. For real. The only time I ever ADS is if I'm using a sniper rifle or if I need to make a super long shot, and if I need to make a shot that long I stop moving altogether to line it up.
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May 30, 2015 23:16
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I make long shots with assault rifles from the hip, on full auto. That's what laser sights are for!
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May 30, 2015 23:19
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Lemon Curdistan posted:I make long shots with assault rifles from the hip, on full auto. That's what laser sights are for! Peacemaker ain't got no laser sights 
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May 30, 2015 23:21
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I'm very happy I bought the Historical Pack, the weapons and masks all own
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May 30, 2015 23:22
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Crabtree posted:Then make a public lobby for something stealth, including Car Shop. There's "challenging" and then there's "slamming your dick onto a hot stove repeatedly"
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May 30, 2015 23:25
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Dr Cheeto posted:There's "challenging" and then there's "slamming your dick onto a hot stove repeatedly" There's no scale in this game. It's either easy as poo poo or you're screaming at your computer because its too hard. The only way we can go is completely OVERKILL. Fellis posted:I'm bored, not retarded. Also I had enough of that between release and the first major changes to the game, when it was a ghost town Then outside of a miracle or paying Wilko to design a level editor, you're hosed. Every other form of challenge you're apparently too good for. Start weeping Alexander as outside of a momentary new heist release, there are no more challenges to crime. Crabtree fucked around with this message at 23:38 on May 30, 2015 |
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May 30, 2015 23:28
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Crabtree posted:Then make a public lobby for something stealth, including Car Shop. I'm bored, not retarded. Also I had enough of that between release and the first major changes to the game, when it was a ghost town
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May 30, 2015 23:32
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Suit + Basic Shinobi + Ace Run and Gun is a really good way to disorient yourself. Especially so with a sniper rifle. Deathwish is a very good way to frustrate yourself. You don't have to take out the best guns but you do have put away the worst habits.
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May 30, 2015 23:54
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Lemon Curdistan posted:Run and Gun isn't worth going into Fugitive for in ICTV because you won't be aiming down sights most of the time. Basic is a flat 10% movement increase, which if you have 6 points to spare in your build is a loving bargain.
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May 30, 2015 23:59
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Fellis posted:Sentries are bad only because there are so many things in this game that are so loving powerful believe me, I totally understand the idea of "I'm going to use this because it's different and idgaf if it's suboptimal" - you ought to see my weapon inventory - but to me sentries are bad not because of other more powerful things but because they take so many loving points in a skill tree already in last place for points::benefit ratio. I want sentries to be better, primarily by taking fewer loving points. Someone who puts ~50 or more points into technician should get drill skills, sentries, C4, and the ability to pick between shockproof/bulletproof or bringing both sentries and C4 at the same time. To do that now you need to put in like 90. It's stupid. LuciferMorningstar posted:The build with aced BP keeps Shinobi, doesn't it? Dropping Run and Gun shouldn't be a huge issue, considering we didn't have Fugitive for a long time. And you know this is coming from someone who has to go fast all the time. we used to have tier bonuses for skill trees and I'm pretty sure Ghost had a movespeed one back in the day, right? I used to invest more points in Ghost than I do now and I'm sure it was for a tier bonus and I think that bonus was movespeed. Either way, it's six points (which is cheap) for an extremely handy 10% which really, really helps ICTV and I've been using ICTV since day one. For a suit build it's less critical except ... oh yeah, suit builds are going to go into Fugitive and take it anyway. If you weren't taking six points into fugitive chances are you'd be acing shinobi so it's really only an additional cost of 3, which is as nothing. Psion fucked around with this message at 00:26 on May 31, 2015 |
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May 31, 2015 00:18
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Psion posted:If you weren't taking six points into fugitive chances are you'd be acing shinobi so it's really only an additional cost of 3, which is as nothing. I don't understand why shinobi ace would be in anyone's loud builds unless they were just dumping points into ghost to get at the silencer skills. E: gently caress me I can't read Dr Cheeto fucked around with this message at 00:30 on May 31, 2015 |
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May 31, 2015 00:22
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Psion posted:believe me, I totally understand the idea of "I'm going to use this because it's different and idgaf if it's suboptimal" - you ought to see my weapon inventory - but to me sentries are bad not because of other more powerful things but because they take so many loving points in a skill tree already in last place for points::benefit ratio. I want sentries to be better, primarily by taking fewer loving points. Someone who puts ~50 or more points into technician should get drill skills, sentries, C4, and the ability to pick between shockproof/bulletproof or bringing both sentries and C4. To do that now you need to put in like 90. It's stupid. Psion posted:we used to have tier bonuses for skill trees and I'm pretty sure Ghost had a movespeed one back in the day, right? I used to invest more points in Ghost than I do now and I'm sure it was for a tier bonus and I think that bonus was movespeed. Either way, it's six points (which is cheap) for an extremely handy 10% which really, really helps ICTV and I've been using ICTV since day one. For a suit build it's less critical except ... oh yeah, suit builds are going to go into Fugitive and take it anyway.
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May 31, 2015 00:26
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Psion posted:we used to have tier bonuses for skill trees and I'm pretty sure Ghost had a movespeed one back in the day, right?
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May 31, 2015 00:30
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Insert name here posted:Back when tier bonuses existed Ghost had the bonus for reducing the armour speed penalty, which is similar enough as a speed bonus, though only for wearing armour. Said bonus is now in every perk deck, though the bonus itself got reduced. Oh yeah, okay. Well that was 18 points in Ghost, and now most of my masterforcer/techforcer style builds have 10 in ghost, 6 in fugitive. I'm saving points and getting more out of it.
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May 31, 2015 00:37
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Insert name here posted:I feel the same way about Joker. I love using joker but you really need to take all the skills for it in order for it to not being pointless since otherwise your cop buddy will just die instantly. At least with Joker the blow is softened because there aren't as many joker skills, as well as the mastermind tree itself being awesome. I actually use (read: forget i have it) joker more nowadays because I need to buy up to inspire ace and I'm usually not the guy who brings meds nor do I use rifles/sniper rifles that benefit from kilmer basic Psion posted:believe me, I totally understand the idea of "I'm going to use this because it's different and idgaf if it's suboptimal" - you ought to see my weapon inventory - but to me sentries are bad not because of other more powerful things but because they take so many loving points in a skill tree already in last place for points::benefit ratio. I want sentries to be better, primarily by taking fewer loving points. Someone who puts ~50 or more points into technician should get drill skills, sentries, C4, and the ability to pick between shockproof/bulletproof or bringing both sentries and C4 at the same time. To do that now you need to put in like 90. It's stupid. Yeah, all they would have to do is merge two of the top level skills or move some down to lower tier, effectively reduce the point cost by like 12-16 points and they'd be in a good spot. Honestly the biggest issue is the sheer amount of time you have to put into practicing placement on each level because of the amount of times a sentry will have some keyhole to a cop spawn across the level and waste all its ammo or shoot uselessly into geometry because of bad detection. Some sort of visual arc that shows what they can hit or improving the hit detection would go a long way. When sentries work they can do some crazy work its really impressive.
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May 31, 2015 01:09
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Insert name here posted:I feel the same way about Joker. I love using joker but you really need to take all the skills for it in order for it to not being pointless since otherwise your cop buddy will just die instantly. At least with Joker the blow is softened because there aren't as many joker skills, as well as the mastermind tree itself being awesome.
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May 31, 2015 01:42
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