TG As An Industry - Past, Present, Future - The Something Awful Forums

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG As An Industry - Past, Present, Future

Rand Brittain: Mar 25, 2013; "Go on until you're stopped."

If a hero wants to have a sharp stabbin' knife, he's got to occasionally spend time sitting down and sharpening his knives.

# ? Jun 10, 2015 21:24

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# ? Apr 29, 2024 05:49

Shrecknet: Jan 2, 2005

Harrow posted:

I still haven't seen a video game sex scene that wasn't just weird and awkward, though.

Saint's Row IV :colbert:

# ? Jun 10, 2015 22:16

jivjov: Sep 13, 2007; But how does it taste? Yummy!; Dinosaur Gum

Everblight posted:

Saint's Row IV

Kinzie's in particular. Especially if you talk to her again afterwards.

# ? Jun 10, 2015 22:46

ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

I think it in part comes down to "do you want to play the role of Conan as is written" or "do you want to play the role of Conan as is viewed by the audience?"

Like of course the writer knows Conan ain't gonna die. The whole point of reading the books though is the question of "How does he possibly get out of this one?" To keep that feeling, I think you can't have invincibility - but you need a Conan who CAN face the odds and push them back.

Basically, I disagree that Conan needs an indie game. I think a vaguely standard adventure game or dungeon crawler-esque game works just fine. Conan should be a game set in the days of high adventure. You just need to ensure the PCs are badasses, not poo poo farmers. Conan should be able to kill tons of mooks every time he starts swinging his sword, but he should also have legitimately dangerous situations that require he think his way out. I mean, you can have a dungeon crawler with a narrative point system a'la FATE! Just because a lot of grogs think there must be a gap between the two doesn't make them right.

Like Conan is captured or whatever and has his legs broken and is crucified, yet lives through it out of sheer swole. That doesn't tell me "Conan is invincible," because previously and later in the story you think he's totally gonna eat it; that tells me "Conan can survive the impossible from time to time."

# ? Jun 10, 2015 23:09

ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

As far as sex in video games and the Witcher goes, I think it's notale (and hilarious) that Geralt is entirely not at all some kinda super pimp in Witcher 3. He worships the ground Yenn walks on, has exactly the sorta super awkward relationship of "we used to be together, now we aren't and I'm kinda seeing someone, but still want each other" deal with Triss (except Triss is way more mature about it), and so far the only other vague relationship thing I've seen was another sorceress all but using him with the sense of "Ehhhh...ok, I guess you'll do."

Geralt ain't the guy who struts around and grabs whatever ladies he wants, he's the universal booty call. He's meat on the block.

# ? Jun 10, 2015 23:11

Lemon-Lime: Aug 6, 2009

ProfessorCirno posted:

Geralt ain't the guy who struts around and grabs whatever ladies he wants, he's the universal booty call. He's meat on the block.

By nature, he's a guy who is physically fit, has superhuman stamina, is sterile, cannot catch STDs, has no attachments, is a social pariah whose word will never be trusted if he tries to mention that he slept with the Lord's wife, and as a result of that, is also a very experienced lover. Essentially, part and parcel of being a witcher in Sapkowski's works involves become the perfect deniable booty call.

# ? Jun 10, 2015 23:33

DivineCoffeeBinge: Mar 3, 2011; Spider-Man's Amazing Construction Company

Alien Rope Burn posted:

Also, how did we get this far in bringing up old systems with genre emulation without mentioning Call of Cthulhu? Yeah, it's clunky, but it very much made a deliberate attempt to simulate Lovecraftian horror, and was shockingly decent at it given it was released - once again - in 1981.

Pendragon, as well, originally from Chaosium. I spent a goodly amount of words talking about how Pendragon's mechanics are designed to evoke the particular genre and themes of Arthurian Literature - and, consequently, how it's not nearly so good at doing literally anything else.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 00:08

Hwurmp: May 20, 2005

Harrow posted:

I still haven't seen a video game sex scene that wasn't just weird and awkward, though.

Does it count if there's just a significant fade to black and no actual scene, like in Alpha Protocol? Those are fine.

also

Everblight posted:

Saint's Row IV

Hwurmp fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Jun 11, 2015

# ? Jun 11, 2015 00:48

BlackIronHeart: Aug 2, 2004; The Oath Breaker's about to hit warphead nine Kaptain!

Ulta posted:

In A Wicked Age does something like that. Stats are "For others", "with love" or "with violence". Generally you slap two together for a role. It's a really good game that tells some over the top mythical stories.

Seriously, if you wanna play Conan, pick up IAWA.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 01:03

inklesspen: Oct 17, 2007; Here I am coming, with the good news of me, and you hate it. You can think only of the bell and how much I have it, and you are never the goose. I will run around with my bell as much as I want and you will make despair.; Buglord

potatocubed posted:

You'd have to swap the standard pastoral genre for epic fantasy, though, or Conan would spend a lot of time doing chores or staring out to sea and sighing wistfully.

I don't understand why this is a problem.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 01:06

Wrestlepig: Feb 25, 2011; my mum says im cool; Toilet Rascal

He's got barely any laundry to worry about.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 01:14

Bieeanshee: Aug 21, 2000; Not keen on keening.; Grimey Drawer

potatocubed posted:

You'd have to swap the standard pastoral genre for epic fantasy, though, or Conan would spend a lot of time doing chores or staring out to sea and sighing wistfully.

"Conan, what is good in life?" I asked, gently.
It was some moments before the great barbarian stirred, drawing his gaze from the sea that shone like a mountain of gold in the fading sunlight.
"At one point, I thought I knew," Conan rumbled. "Now, I know nothing."
"Well. Perhaps we could learn anew, together?"
Conan was still and silent as a mountainside-- but this, eventually, was a mountain that smiled.
"I would like that, my friend," the Cimmerian replied.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 01:33

Dr. Quarex: Apr 18, 2003; I'M A BIG DORK WHO POSTS TOO MUCH ABOUT CONVENTIONS LOOK AT THIS

TOVA TOVA TOVA

JDCorley posted:

That Sandy Petersen interview is a pro click. I also think the openness towards the interviewer shows how important yog-sothoth.com is to the fandom of Call of Cthulhu. It's a tremendous resource, one of the better fan sites out there. Very smart for Petersen to recognize that.

I am not sure I have even heard of Yog-Sothoth.com before now, but it seems like a pretty cool place, and that interview was great. Every single post I have read about how Chaosium is being run like its leaders are completely unaware that they have probably the #3 most-beloved tabletop gaming property on their hands...well, it now makes sense, as even the founders of Chaosium basically thought so.

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

I also enjoy the Conan movie, probably because even if the particulars are kinda off it gets the "vibe" right. That's a dirty, greasy, nasty movie and the city in it seems like a garbage dump that should be burned to the ground.

The upcoming King Conan movie is the only film left to be excited about. Well wait I guess Furiosa if that gets made but THEN THAT IS IT

Also I remember the Jack sex scene in Mass Effect 2 being pretty good but it could just be that I am truly sad I do not know Jack in real life. Well minus the mass murder.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 02:23

Glazius: Jul 22, 2007; Hail all those who are able,
any mouse can,
any mouse will,
but the Guard prevail.; Clapping Larry

Huh. Nobody's mentioned Swords Without Master yet?

It's a good game for telling a pulp fantasy story and you could trivially just make a character out of Conan.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 03:02

Servetus: Apr 1, 2010

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

Yeah I don't know how you would use these mechanics concretely. Just spitballing.

On another note, I cannot believe there isn't a pen and paper Witcher Role Playing game where characters take on members of different Witcher schools and their allies and go around and fight monsters and meddle in poo poo.

So you haven't googled "Witcher pen and paper" then?

http://witcher.wikia.com/wiki/Wied%C5%BAmin:_Gra_Wyobra%C5%BAni

Unfortunately it's only in Polish.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 03:22

Tollymain: Jul 9, 2010; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Bieeardo posted:

"Conan, what is good in life?" I asked, gently.
It was some moments before the great barbarian stirred, drawing his gaze from the sea that shone like a mountain of gold in the fading sunlight.
"At one point, I thought I knew," Conan rumbled. "Now, I know nothing."
"Well. Perhaps we could learn anew, together?"
Conan was still and silent as a mountainside-- but this, eventually, was a mountain that smiled.
"I would like that, my friend," the Cimmerian replied.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 04:14

Evil Mastermind: Apr 28, 2008

"What is it that a man may call the greatest things in life?"
"Hot water, good dentishtry and shoft lavatory paper."

# ? Jun 11, 2015 04:23

unseenlibrarian: Jun 4, 2012; There's only one thing in the mountains that leaves a track like this. The creature of legend that roams the Timberline. My people named him Sasquatch. You call him... Bigfoot.

Life Advice from Conan.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 04:27

Jedit: Dec 10, 2011; Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

unseenlibrarian posted:

Life Advice from Conan.

I wish I could find the Conan The Barbarian Goes Shopping cartoon that Viz did in the 80s. The basic plot is Conan going to the supermarket to buy shampoo and getting stuck in a queue behind every kind of irritating shopper. Eventually he yells "Paying by cheque for a tin of peas? Surely I am meant to be held here!" before murdering his way to the front, paying with exact change and a coupon and adding "... And I do not expect to be charged for a carrier bag!"

# ? Jun 11, 2015 12:32

alg: Mar 14, 2007; A wolf was no less a wolf because a whim of chance caused him to run with the watch-dogs.

The Savage Worlds setting Beasts & Barbarians seems really cool and is 100% Conan themed.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 14:41

Megaman's Jockstrap: Jul 16, 2000; What a horrible thread to have a post.

Servetus posted:

So you haven't googled "Witcher pen and paper" then?

http://witcher.wikia.com/wiki/Wied%C5%BAmin:_Gra_Wyobra%C5%BAni

Unfortunately it's only in Polish.

Of course I did, and yeah I didn't mention this because it's in Polish!

Also,

Bieeardo posted:

"Conan, what is good in life?" I asked, gently.
It was some moments before the great barbarian stirred, drawing his gaze from the sea that shone like a mountain of gold in the fading sunlight.
"At one point, I thought I knew," Conan rumbled. "Now, I know nothing."
"Well. Perhaps we could learn anew, together?"
Conan was still and silent as a mountainside-- but this, eventually, was a mountain that smiled.
"I would like that, my friend," the Cimmerian replied.

is great

# ? Jun 11, 2015 15:43

Gerund: Sep 12, 2007; He push a man

The FTC is now coming for failed Kickstarters.

quote:

Crowdfunding platforms like Kickstarter have helped launch a lot of nerdy gaming success stories. Politically incorrect party game "Cards Against Humanity" was an early success story that went on to form a sort of mini-empire. Cooperative survival game series "Zombicide" is now fulfilling orders to supporters of its third separate campaign. And one of the most funded projects of all time is a card game called "Exploding Kittens" that was co-created by a popular Web comic artist and is expected to ship later this summer.

But in its first ever enforcement action against a crowdfunded project, the Federal Trade Commission went after a board game project gone wrong.

When "The Doom That Came to Atlantic City" hit Kickstarter in May 2012, it looked like a solid investment. Players would take the role of the Great Old Ones, the otherworldly villains of popular horror writer H.P. Lovecraft's mythos, as they wreaked havoc on Atlantic City on a board that closely resembled Monopoly.

It was the brainchild of illustrator Lee Moyer and experienced game designer Keith Baker. Paul Komoda, a sculptor with a long association with the late surrealist artist and special effects guru H.R. Giger, also committed to designing figurines for the game -- and special pewter versions for backers who committed higher amounts to the project.

The campaign initially asked for $35,000, with a $50 pledge to secure a base copy of the game and extra tiers of rewards ranging up to $2,500. After some excited write-ups, it ended up overshooting that goal, raising $122,874 from more than 1,200 people for an average of nearly $100 per backer.

But the company that was supposed to make the game, the Forking Path, never delivered. "After paying to form the company, for the miniature statues, moving back to Portland, getting software licenses and hiring artists to do things like rule book design and art conforming the money was approaching a point of no return," said Erik Chevalier, the man behind the Forking Path, in a June 2013 Kickstarter post announcing the game's cancellation. "My hope now is to eventually refund everyone fully."

At the time of the "The Doom That Came To Atlantic City" campaign, Kickstarter's terms of use said project creators were "required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill." However, the agreement to that rule was between backers and the project creator -- not a guarantee from the funding platform.

But few, if any, supporters of the project ever received refunds, the FTC alleged in a complaint against Chevalier disclosed Thursday that accuses him of deceiving backers of the project. And instead of spending most of the funds raised through Kickstarter on making the game, he spent it on himself, the agency claimed. "In reality, Defendant never hired artists for the board game and instead used the consumers� funds for miscellaneous personal equipment, rent for a personal residence, and licenses for a separate project," the complaint said.

Chevalier has agreed to a settlement order with agency. Under the agreement, he's prohibited from making misrepresentations about crowdfunding campaigns and failing to honor refund policies in the future. The order also contains a $111,793.71 judgment against Chevaliar, but it is suspended because of his inability to pay. "The full amount will become due immediately if he is found to have misrepresented his financial condition," an FTC press release said. The Post was not able to immediately reach Chevalier, who did not admit guilt as part of the agreement.

The agency declined to comment on how the incident came onto its radar, but the project's collapse made a splash on news blogs devoted to nerd culture. In a post on his blog, Baker said neither he nor Moyer ever received money from the crowdfunding campaign -- nor were they informed about the cancellation until the decision was already made.

The enforcement action is a sign that the FTC is willing to extend its consumer protection powers to the somewhat murky waters of crowdfunding. Kickstarter uses an all or nothing type of system in which projects must reach a funding goal during a specific campaign period or they do not receive any of the pledges committed to it. Most campaigns fall short, according to the statistics from the company's Web site, and backers keep their money.

But the 37 percent of projects successfully funded have raised more than $1.5 billion dollars, of which Kickstarter takes a modest cut. The "games" category has an even lower success rate, with only 32 percent of projects meeting funding goals. And projects like "The Doom That Came To Atlantic City" show that not all successful campaigns end up delivering what they promised.

Because often times projects are delayed rather than cancelled, statistics on that category of projects are hard to determine. And that risk is almost inherent to funding passion projects on platforms like Kickstarter.

But that doesn't mean project creators can deceive consumers, according to the FTC. �Many consumers enjoy the opportunity to take part in the development of a product or service through crowdfunding, and they generally know there�s some uncertainty involved in helping start something new,� said Jessica Rich, director of the FTC�s Bureau of Consumer Protection, said in a statement about the Chevalier case. �But consumers should [be] able to trust their money will actually be spent on the project they funded.�

And ultimately, backers of "The Doom That Came to Atlantic City" got at least some of what they paid for: Another company, Cryptozoic Entertainment, rescued the game after Chevalier announced its cancellation and gave all backers a copy. But not, the FTC said in its complaint, "the other, highly-prized deliverables, such as the promised pewter figurines" from the Kickstarter.

Some of this is growing pains, but a lot of it is bad business decisions.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 16:35

Slimnoid: Sep 6, 2012; Does that mean I don't get the job?

Gerund posted:

The FTC is now coming for failed Kickstarters.

Some of this is growing pains, but a lot of it is bad business decisions.

I wonder how they'll deal with games that aren't cancelled, but are massively overdue with no ending in sight, like Far West.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 18:35

Mors Rattus: Oct 25, 2007; FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

Interestingly, I saw a copy of The Doom That Came To Atlantic City at Origins last week.

This is confusing as hell.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 18:38

Evil Mastermind: Apr 28, 2008

quote:

Because often times projects are delayed rather than cancelled, statistics on that category of projects are hard to determine. And that risk is almost inherent to funding passion projects on platforms like Kickstarter.

But that doesn't mean project creators can deceive consumers, according to the FTC. �Many consumers enjoy the opportunity to take part in the development of a product or service through crowdfunding, and they generally know there�s some uncertainty involved in helping start something new,� said Jessica Rich, director of the FTC�s Bureau of Consumer Protection, said in a statement about the Chevalier case. �But consumers should [be] able to trust their money will actually be spent on the project they funded.�

I imagine it'd be hard to determine "I quit" versus "I'm still working on it really!". I wonder if the FTC can look and see if, say, the project owner had a separate account for the funds, or can determine how much money was actually spent on working on the project.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 18:40

Misandu: Feb 28, 2008; STOP.
Hammer Time.

It's mostly likely going to come down to accountability. If you can prove that you went bust for legitimate, justifiable reasons while trying to complete the project then them's the breaks what can you do? If you allocated $50k to 'buying a house to work on the book' then you are probably not in as good shape.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 18:42

Evil Mastermind: Apr 28, 2008

Mors Rattus posted:

Interestingly, I saw a copy of The Doom That Came To Atlantic City at Origins last week.

This is confusing as hell.

DtCtAC is a weird case because technically speaking the person who launched the project didn't actually finish it. Cryptozoologic took over voluntarily and didn't have access to the KS funds, so it was all out of their own pocket.

So while the game did deliver and is in stores, it wasn't because of the project owner or the funds he collected. He took the $122k and produced nothing with it.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 18:43

Bieeanshee: Aug 21, 2000; Not keen on keening.; Grimey Drawer

Mors Rattus posted:

Interestingly, I saw a copy of The Doom That Came To Atlantic City at Origins last week.

This is confusing as hell.

I saw one at a local comics and games store last year, and I'm still kind of wondering how that happened.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 18:44

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

Evil Mastermind posted:

DtCtAC is a weird case because technically speaking the person who launched the project didn't actually finish it. Cryptozoologic took over voluntarily and didn't have access to the KS funds, so it was all out of their own pocket.

So while the game did deliver and is in stores, it wasn't because of the project owner or the funds he collected. He took the $122k and produced nothing with it.

Yeah, the article breaks it down fairly well, but what happened is Keith Baker and some buddies of his had this idea for a board game and were collaborating on it...Baker was designing, he had illustrators working on art assets and planning things like these miniatures...and then there's this guy named Erik Chevalier who I guess was some friend/acquaintance of Baker's who was acting as "project manager" or something. So the Kickstarter funds with $110K+ and Chevalier takes all the money to do business-y stuff with it and spends it all starting his own company or some poo poo like that, then turns around and goes "oops, looks like I'm out of money, project's cancelled everyone."

Only he hadn't informed Baker or anyone else about any of this.

So the tl;dr is Keith Baker's business partner basically stole over a hundred thousand dollars from him and pissed it away. Naturally the Kickstarter comments for the project were full of Chevalier being hilariously passive-aggressive whenever anyone called him out on poo poo while still promising to refund people if only they'd stop "harassing" him but I guess we can see how that all turned out. I mean it says it all that even now Chevalier isn't admitting any guilt, the guy's a complete rear end in a top hat and the silver linings to come out of it were Cryptozoic coming in to rescue the game and the fact that if you google Chevalier's name the first page that pops up is full of articles about him and the Doom That Came to Atlantic City debacle.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 19:15

Fenarisk: Oct 27, 2005

Here's the legit problem with that if someone wanted to take the money and run in a legal sense: set up an LLC (it's like $800), pay yourself a salary to work on it, then go "well I'm bad at business I tried, here's the accounts payable for my salary and the 'tracked hours', oh well" and you've made bank without recourse. Of course most kickstarter people wouldn't think of that but still.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 19:16

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Cryptozoic is solid as gently caress for stepping in to rescue the game and go out of pocket to make sure all the kickstartees got copies even though they absolutely had no obligation to do so. Good, good people.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 19:24

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

FMguru posted:

Cryptozoic is solid as gently caress for stepping in to rescue the game and go out of pocket to make sure all the kickstartees got copies even though they absolutely had no obligation to do so. Good, good people.

Yeah, they had no obligation to do so and no real connection to the project, so I think even Keith Baker was surprised when they stepped in to publish no-fooling copies of the game.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 19:28

Leperflesh: May 17, 2007

Fenarisk posted:

Here's the legit problem with that if someone wanted to take the money and run in a legal sense: set up an LLC (it's like $800), pay yourself a salary to work on it, then go "well I'm bad at business I tried, here's the accounts payable for my salary and the 'tracked hours', oh well" and you've made bank without recourse. Of course most kickstarter people wouldn't think of that but still.

People who are organized enough to do that are organized enough to actually deliver a kickstarter. I think most of the time when someone fucks off with the money, it was a cloud of good intentions, incompetence, overenthusiasm, lack of business acumen, and a strong sense of self-entitlement that combine to make it fail. Outright, up-front scams intending to take the money and run from the getgo do happen but they're vanishingly rare.

As an aside, if you're going to do a kickstarter pulling in a hundred grand or more, you should be limiting your liability by using appropriate business structures anyway. You'll have to spend some money on a lawyer but it's worth it.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 19:29

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

Leperflesh posted:

People who are organized enough to do that are organized enough to actually deliver a kickstarter. I think most of the time when someone fucks off with the money, it was a cloud of good intentions, incompetence, overenthusiasm, lack of business acumen, and a strong sense of self-entitlement that combine to make it fail. Outright, up-front scams intending to take the money and run from the getgo do happen but they're vanishingly rare.

Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice, though. Like, the fact that this guy kept everything a secret from Keith Baker, and I don't know any of the private details of what went on between those two but if I were Baker I'd have been a lot more interested in what was going on with my hundred grand, suggests to me that he actually knew that what he was doing was something that Baker might object to so he went ahead and did it all before anyone could go "hey wait a minute" and then went for the whole forgiveness over permission angle.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 19:35

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

Leperflesh posted:

Outright, up-front scams

It would be nice for someone to rescue Up Front! the same way, but I'm sure that money's gone.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 19:51

Bucnasti: Aug 14, 2012; I'll Fetch My Sarcasm Robes

Leperflesh posted:

As an aside, if you're going to do a kickstarter pulling in a hundred grand or more, you should be limiting your liability by using appropriate business structures anyway. You'll have to spend some money on a lawyer but it's worth it.

Especially if there are multiple people involved in the project. There are so many ways for something to go sideways and having everything set out in contracts ahead of time will save everyone a ton of trouble.

# ? Jun 12, 2015 01:55

Jedit: Dec 10, 2011; Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

FMguru posted:

Cryptozoic is solid as gently caress for stepping in to rescue the game and go out of pocket to make sure all the kickstartees got copies even though they absolutely had no obligation to do so. Good, good people.

poo poo, poo poo games though.

# ? Jun 12, 2015 13:23

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

So among the free adventures, awesome DM screens, and other teasers on Free RPG Day, one company was curiously absent.

Any idea why WotC decided to sit this one out? Especially with a new edition this year? And was it a dumb move? Or a savvy one, deciding they didn't need the publicity.

Frankly, it kinda looks like WotC has been making GBS threads the bed for a while. No conversion guide, no license, no pdfs, skeleton crew with all products farmed out to third parties... And yet 5e seems, by the numbers, to be quite successful. What is going on out there?

# ? Jun 22, 2015 21:49

Kellsterik: Mar 30, 2012

dwarf74 posted:

And yet 5e seems, by the numbers, to be quite successful. What is going on out there?

Don't underestimate just how head and shoulders the Dungeons and Dragons brand is above all other RPGs on the market, except maybe Pathfinder.

# ? Jun 22, 2015 21:55

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# ? Apr 29, 2024 05:49

Leperflesh: May 17, 2007

Yeah. There's millions and millions of non-gamer ordinary schlubs who have heard of D&D and would buy a copy for their 12-year-old for their birthday, but has never so much as set foot in a game store. I bet 5e sells massively on Amazon.

# ? Jun 22, 2015 21:56

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