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The worst part of the intro is the strings instead of theremin. No theremin = bad intro E: Also I think that the actual plot of Good Dalek is awful and terrible but the character interactions, especially Clara talking to Mr. Blue and The Doctor getting slapped were really really good. Capaldi's cynicism transforming into a slight hope, then back to cynicism, then Clara kickstarting it into real hope, then the despair when all he accomplished is a Dalek-killing Dalek... It's a very strong character that Capaldi fuckin nails bawk fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Jul 9, 2015 |
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Jul 9, 2015 05:55
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idonotlikepeas is anyone entered on an episode-to-episode basis
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Jul 9, 2015 05:58
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drat I guess I over-corrected from my negative season 6 guesses. Not that I mind getting this one wrong because the review and grade here are The Right Opinion.
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Jul 9, 2015 06:05
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I remember liking the Eleven phone call just because the idea of Twelve standing there watching Clara's response to things he'd already said was a cool (and very Moffaty) moment.
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Jul 9, 2015 06:31
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Many of us saw these first few episodes months before the original airdate as the workprints, with unfinished effects and some scenes that were left on the floor at the last minute. Originally this episode had Rusty suicide-bombing the Dalek-ship! I wonder why that was dropped... Too bad I couldn't find any of the effects.gifs online, because they were hilariously junky. Did you think the T-rex was bad? Placeholder version was much worse and we still enjoyed it.
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Jul 9, 2015 06:42
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Ninth Doctor: "You would make a good Dalek." Twelfth Doctor: "You are a good Dalek."
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Jul 9, 2015 07:24
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Out of the revival's eight Dalek-centric stories, six have involved "good daleks" in some form. For me, the well has run dry.
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Jul 9, 2015 07:31
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Craptacular! posted:Ninth Doctor: "You would make a good Dalek." A distinction so flimsy given the Doctor's character arc that it's practically meaningless. If we'd seen the Doctor change in any way since Ten, of be affected by the continual 'darkest days' Moffat keeps insisting he has then maybe I could buy that Capaldi is more Dalek than Eccleston. But he isn't.
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Jul 9, 2015 07:32
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PriorMarcus posted:A distinction so flimsy given the Doctor's character arc that it's practically meaningless. If we'd seen the Doctor change in any way since Ten, of be affected by the continual 'darkest days' Moffat keeps insisting he has then maybe I could buy that Capaldi is more Dalek than Eccleston. But he isn't. "It's not the exact words therefore it's not the same" is basically the only thing Moffat fans have to cling on to, dude. Leave em be. e: VVV this is a good post. better than the one you're reading now Escobarbarian fucked around with this message at 07:43 on Jul 9, 2015 |
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Jul 9, 2015 07:39
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Aww, look at Toxx. He's never experienced a real post-regeneration madness episode. One where the character is all over the place, because that's how these things ostensibly work. Regeneration makes the Doctor crazy and giddy and high. I really feel like you're projecting character decisions from Twelve onto Moffat here. You say Moffat doesn't have confidence in Twelve, but really, it's more that Twelve doesn't have confidence in Twelve as a character. Moffat's driving that theme hard. In fact, I had to laugh when you were talking about how Eleven is Moffat's idea of the Doctor, because his plan was all along to have the Doctor as an older curmudgeon, but then Matt Smith kinda blew them away in audition and messed that up. Old grumpy (but showboaty as hell) guy is Moffat's main image of the Doctor. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 07:48 on Jul 9, 2015 |
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Jul 9, 2015 07:42
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PriorMarcus posted:A distinction so flimsy given the Doctor's character arc that it's practically meaningless. Not... really. I mean, the entire meaning of the word 'good' is different between the two quotes, that was kinda the whole point of the latter quote.
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Jul 9, 2015 07:43
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MikeJF posted:In fact, I had to laugh when you were talking about how Eleven is Moffat's idea of the Doctor, because his plan was all along to have the Doctor as an older curmudgeon, but then Matt Smith kinda blew them away in audition and messed that up. Old grumpy (but showboaty as hell) guy is Moffat's main image of the Doctor. didn't Moffat consider Capaldi for 11, and wanted to go with an older doctor then, but decided to go with Smith instead after his audition?
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Jul 9, 2015 08:10
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Another thing about Deep Breath is that when you view it through the lens of the writer's personal politics (and you're probably not a very good analyst if you don't do this tbh) giving Clara the "control freak" personality and having Capaldi dismiss her and treat her like poo poo for ages and ages all comes off as very iffy indeed.
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Jul 9, 2015 08:20
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Bown posted:Another thing about Deep Breath is that when you view it through the lens of the writer's personal politics (and you're probably not a very good analyst if you don't do this tbh) giving Clara the "control freak" personality and having Capaldi dismiss her and treat her like poo poo for ages and ages all comes off as very iffy indeed. The implication of that scene is that both of them are control freaks in their own way, and blissfully unaware of it. Biographism is outdated, and leads nowhere.
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Jul 9, 2015 09:34
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Attitude Indicator posted:didn't Moffat consider Capaldi for 11, and wanted to go with an older doctor then, but decided to go with Smith instead after his audition? Yeah. I'm not sure on the specifics, but I remember hearing that he ultimately decided to make Eleven young to ease the fears of more modern fans. Capaldi's actually been high on potential Doctor casting choices since the 1996 TV movie, so it was something of a given that if we were ever going to get an older Doctor again it would be him. If making Eleven young to appease fans is true, then it makes sense; putting aside any issues of quality, if you got into Doctor Who with the new series, found out that RTD was stepping down along with Tennant, and that the new showrunner picked someone like Capaldi for the Doctor? There's a decent chance you would have gone 'this show's not for me anymore' sight unseen. Meaning, in a way, that Eleven's presence in Deep Breath could be seen as a metaphor for the reason we got a character like Eleven in the first place. An assurance that the man/show underneath is still the same, even if the face is different. That phone call is probably superfluous, but it's coming from a good place.
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Jul 9, 2015 10:02
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And More posted:The implication of that scene is that both of them are control freaks in their own way, and blissfully unaware of it. Biographism is outdated, and leads nowhere. Looking at the views of the person who wrote a piece of text to understand more what they were thinking subconsciously when they wrote it or what subtext that would have added to it is like basic poo poo though. Especially when it's Moffat who historically is known for literally writing shows about himself. And please don't come back to me talking about how authorial intent means nothing these days or whatever because while I'm not at all a death of the author denier I saw Room 237 and that was the best argument against going too far down that road I've ever seen. Escobarbarian fucked around with this message at 10:29 on Jul 9, 2015 |
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Jul 9, 2015 10:26
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Cleretic posted:If making Eleven young to appease fans is true, then it makes sense; putting aside any issues of quality, if you got into Doctor Who with the new series, found out that RTD was stepping down along with Tennant, and that the new showrunner picked someone like Capaldi for the Doctor? There's a decent chance you would have gone 'this show's not for me anymore' sight unseen. I really disliked the phone call because no other Doctor that I know of needed in his very first episode for another Doctor to "vouch" for him. But I also realize that it was intended for people on Tumblr and these people. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 11:18 on Jul 9, 2015 |
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Jul 9, 2015 11:16
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Craptacular! posted:I really disliked the phone call because no other Doctor that I know of needed in his very first episode for another Doctor to "vouch" for him. Is this where we introduce Toxx to the Ian Levine meltdown over Eccleston leaving?
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Jul 9, 2015 11:19
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Man, Daleks look a bit weird as Lego characters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYUfRxwE424
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Jul 9, 2015 12:11
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Toxxupation posted:idonotlikepeas is anyone entered on an episode-to-episode basis Just one person at the moment.
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Jul 9, 2015 12:43
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I had about the same reaction to Deep Breath. For the first time I wasn't completely hyped up and on board with the new Doctor because the first episode wasn't an outright smash like those other "new Doctor" episodes. That and the abandoning Clara thing, which only manages to not be the Worst Thing because of Six trying to throttle the life out of Peri ten minutes into his first episode. Notably, neither Six nor Twelve ever say to their companion "yo, sorry about that". It utterly poisoned the well for Six, but as Twelve's instance wasn't as bad, and later episodes have him do better things... I got over it. One more thing you might be interested in; there's a guy who does fan edits of Doctor Who. Mostly the old stuff but he's done some of the new (and probably will do more now that he's actually done edits of ALL of Classic Who). Anyway, he took Deep Breath and made it into a 45 minute cut. Worth checking out for a lark, maybe?
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Jul 9, 2015 12:47
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Toxxupation posted:I think they smack a bit too much of retread - as even Twelve notes, and numerous times throughout the episode, they're basically the Clockwork Men from "Girl in the Fireplace" Mark II, but they work, I guess. I read someone argue that this should've been a Cybermen episode, and I agree, if only to have an episode where they're an antagonist and aren't complete and utter embarrassments as enemies. Not 'basically'. They are the Clockwork Men, just taken further to the point where they've started repairing themselves instead of the ship. These come from the SS Marie Antoinette; Girl In The Fireplace was on the sister ship SS Madame de Pompadour. The logic error that said 'humans are a valid source of repair parts' was apparently line-wide. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 12:57 on Jul 9, 2015 |
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Jul 9, 2015 12:54
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I was thinking that was the case and couldn't remember if I was right or not. Why are they joking at comic-con about an upcoming episode being called "Vikings on a Spaceship", why would they even make such a despicable joke, there's no way they would ever do that poo poo again right?????????
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Jul 9, 2015 13:03
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Veotax posted:Man, Daleks look a bit weird as Lego characters. Lego must have more money than most small countries now that it's making these things. Also loving lol even after 50 years this Litmus Test holds true.
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Jul 9, 2015 13:08
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it's worth pointing out tha tRose is sort of a regeneration episode as well, and that one is also dogshit.
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Jul 9, 2015 13:12
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Bown posted:Looking at the views of the person who wrote a piece of text to understand more what they were thinking subconsciously when they wrote it or what subtext that would have added to it is like basic poo poo though. Especially when it's Moffat who historically is known for literally writing shows about himself. And please don't come back to me talking about how authorial intent means nothing these days or whatever because while I'm not at all a death of the author denier I saw Room 237 and that was the best argument against going too far down that road I've ever seen. Sure, looking at an author's views and their other work can be useful. It's also very limiting because you end up creating an image of the author that colours the way you interpret their work. If Moffat is sexist you have no other choice than to perceive the scene in the restaurant as a judgment on Clara. He has to write sexist characters because he can't possibly stop being sexist. Even if Moffat is exactly as sexist as you think, though, writing for television is always a collaborative effort. Scripts go through many re-writes and last minute changes. Sure, his name is on that script, but every member of the writing staff, the actors, the producers, etc. also have a hand in it.
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Jul 9, 2015 13:13
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Burkion posted:Most of us figured out that it was the Master pretty much instantly. Just Moffat threw some red herrings up with intentionally fake leaks, so there was some confusion. Agreed. I think it was too obvious it was the Master and a lot of us were just hoping for something more interesting... Giving this a D is totally fair. I remember thinking, at the time, that the first 40 minutes should have been entirely cut.
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Jul 9, 2015 13:28
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And More posted:Sure, looking at an author's views and their other work can be useful. It's also very limiting because you end up creating an image of the author that colours the way you interpret their work. If Moffat is sexist you have no other choice than to perceive the scene in the restaurant as a judgment on Clara. He has to write sexist characters because he can't possibly stop being sexist. But this incident doesn't exist in a vacuum. I wouldn't think Moffat's sexism crept into his writing if any of the individual issues were alone in being problematic, but it happens all the time. To the point where I came to the conclusion it was happening because of the amount of evidence for that viewpoint and not just because I'm limiting myself! I'm just glad we moved on from the early days of 2010-11 when it was "what are you talking about it's not sexist because she isn't a housewife or damsel and isn't constantly browbeaten??????" And even if we assume you're American and don't realise how much less interference there is with scripting in British TV, he is the showrunner. In the end this stuff is nobody else's fault but his. I just remembered why I stopped debating this show: Moffat apologists come up with excuses for eeeeverything Escobarbarian fucked around with this message at 13:56 on Jul 9, 2015 |
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Jul 9, 2015 13:54
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Bown posted:But this incident doesn't exist in a vacuum. I wouldn't think Moffat's sexism crept into his writing if any of the individual issues were alone in being problematic, but it happens all the time. To the point where I came to the conclusion it was happening because of the amount of evidence for that viewpoint and not just because I'm limiting myself! Moffat's many problems come up in this thread all the time along with his several strengths. Why do you keep making weirdly aggressive strawman rants here?
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Jul 9, 2015 14:20
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I sort of wonder how many of the teleplays that have Moffat and someone else listed on them were scripts that the two writers worked on together and how many of them were scripts that were given to Moffat that he put enough work into changing it that he needed to add his name. I would guess most of them were the latter. I can't really talk about how I feel about potential condescension toward Clara from Twelve yet, suffice to say that this season, more than others, feels better to me when considered as a whole and not on the basis of its individual episodes. I think if I had binge watched it instead of seeing it in pieces as it aired, I would appreciate it more.
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Jul 9, 2015 14:24
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I've just watched Deep Breath again for the first time since it aired, and I have a lot of thoughts, mostly about how wrong all of you are about it (because tastes aren't subjective and I am factually correct about it being a good, nay, great episode and can prove it with charts). I actually don't, internet bombast aside, think anyone's wrong for not liking Deep Breath, or not liking Capaldi's Doctor, but I like them very much indeed. I didn't like this episode the first time I watched it either, and it took a bit for me to come around and see that it was (a) essentially an episode of Doctor Who written exactly for me and (b) arguably an object lesson in why people shouldn't write episodes of Doctor Who exactly for me. (This is, not coincidentally, largely how I feel about Season 8 as a whole, but more about that later.) Don't have time to really do the full dissection of the episode that I want to right now, but one thing that occurred to me this time as I was watching that made the whole DINOSAURS WERE SO THAT BIG thing work completely for me. The sequence of that conversation is: Vastra mentions she hasn't seen a dinosaur since she was "a little girl". Jenny mentions that dinosaurs were never that big, and brings up scientific evidence (the fossil record) to prove it. Vastra insists that they were, based on the evidence of her eyes. This isn't the show going gently caress YOU SCIENCE, this is the episode showing us that Vastra puts vastly more faith in her own perceptions (of course dinosaurs would have seemed much larger to her when she was a child) than is warranted. It's an (admittedly nonsensical) plot beat in the service of characterization, and it sets the stage for the central themes of uncertain identity and mistaken perceptions of same that carry on through the entire episode. Because Vastra's conversation with Clara later on, where she believes that the Doctor needs and deserves Clara's unconditional loyalty, a conversation where again she is fundamentally wrong, is probably the most important moment in this episode. Also comedy Strax is good and cool.
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Jul 9, 2015 14:29
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I'm pretty sure the only thing I disliked immensely about Deep Breath was that weird, out-of-place sound effect. And maybe a bit of the pacing. Everything else seemed like a decent regeneration episode, to me. He's out of sorts at the beginning, there's some other stuff going on, and then he sort of finds his feet and voice and is able to deal with the situation. Mind you, I went into it hoping for any glimpse of Capaldi's Doctor being sort of Malcolm Tucker-esque (his character from The Thick of It), so I was pretty happy. He swears a lot less, obviously, but he was enough of a dick to get me excited for a Doctor that would be very different from the last two.
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Jul 9, 2015 14:34
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To be clear, I really like Capaldi's Doctor, I just don't think a sense of him comes across in Deep Breath.
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Jul 9, 2015 14:36
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Bicyclops posted:To be clear, I really like Capaldi's Doctor, I just don't think a sense of him comes across in Deep Breath. But to be fair, I think that's due to Capaldi's character arc over the course of the season. He's struggling to find a sense of himself. Edit: On second thought, maybe this is a mild spoiler? idk. Better safe than sorry. Although I feel like it's clear from just these first two episodes.
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Jul 9, 2015 14:37
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thexerox123 posted:But to be fair, I think that's due to Capaldi's character arc over the course of the season. He's struggling to find a sense of himself. Right. What I said in the Toxx thread is that season 8 benefits more from a rewatch or from binge watching. It's definitely because a lot of the stuff that's extremely frustrating about individual episodes turns out to be part of Twelve's arc and the arc of how he and Clara relate. I think the fact that Moffat has a writing credit on so many of the episodes is part of the reason; he really wanted to focus on a season's story rather than the BIG MOVIE events of 7.5. It does make Deep Breath a fairly weak episode on its own though, and not all of the reason you can't get a sense of him is because he's finding it himself; some of it is how much the episode is trying to ensure us that Matt Smith is still there somewhere, trapped in Capaldi's head.
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Jul 9, 2015 14:41
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One thing about getting a new Doctor I don't recall being mentioned; we get a new soundtrack piece that will be run into the loving ground over the next three to five years! Yes, "I Am The Doctor," heard in almost every single Matt Smith episode, has gone the way of Rose, Martha, and Donna's themes. This time around, the composer decided that instead of a 4-minute track, he'd write a much longer one that individual episodes would take sections from as needed. As such, it's never actually used in its entirety in the whole Season. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JpbE_sVabI I'm still in the "quite like it" stage. I give it until mid-season Nine.
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Jul 9, 2015 15:23
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Bown posted:But this incident doesn't exist in a vacuum. I wouldn't think Moffat's sexism crept into his writing if any of the individual issues were alone in being problematic, but it happens all the time. To the point where I came to the conclusion it was happening because of the amount of evidence for that viewpoint and not just because I'm limiting myself! Your evidence seems to be entirely based on external sources, and not on the restaurant scene itself. Without your assumptions about Moffat's sexism, there is no evidence of a sexist subtext in Capaldi's and Coleman's conversation. The scene on its own does not allow for that interpretation. I even offered you an alternative reading of this scene in which both Clara and the Doctor are portrayed as equally flawed, entirely based on the scene and its context within the episode. If the script is not a first draft then there have been a number of people who influenced Moffat's writing. Once the script is finalised, the actors usually also get a say in what their characters should be allowed to say. I doubt Moffat could force Capaldi or Coleman to spew sexist propaganda.
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Jul 9, 2015 15:28
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And More posted:Once the script is finalised, the actors usually also get a say in what their characters should be allowed to say. I doubt Moffat could force Capaldi or Coleman to spew sexist propaganda. He didn't have a problem getting Smith to say the "She's a woman" line in Let's Kill Hitler.
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Jul 9, 2015 17:07
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ThaGhettoJew posted:Moffat's many problems come up in this thread all the time along with his several strengths. Why do you keep making weirdly aggressive strawman rants here? Because he's a troll, duh.  Just stick him on Ignore and you'll have a much nicer thread experience.
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Jul 9, 2015 17:15
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monster on a stick posted:It was nice to get the obligatory bad Dalek episode out of the way. except it wasn't
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