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If you haven't yet seen Farscape, I'd rather see you do that.
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Jul 18, 2015 20:47
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Mooseontheloose posted:I feel like with Robots of Sherwood they were trying to two things that got dropped from the final script: It felt like it was always intentional to have Robin Hood be real. This Doctor is grumpy and cynical and of course he'd immediately jump to the legendary hero being a robot, but then it turns out the legendary hero is actually a legendary hero. Heroes are real and light beats darkness and love conquers all!
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Jul 18, 2015 20:55
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"Listen!" ... "As if a switch had been turned, as if an eye had been blinked, as if some phantom force in the universe had made a move eons beyond our comprehension, suddenly, there was no trail! There was no giant, no monster, no thing called "Doctor" to be followed. There was nothing in the tunnel but the puzzled men of courage, who suddenly found themselves alone with shadows and darkness! With the TARDIS, one cloud lifts, and another descends. Astronaut Orson Pink, rescued, alive, well, and of normal size, some eight thousand miles away in a lifeboat, with no memory of where he has been, or how he was separated from his capsule! Then who, or what, has landed here? Is it here yet? Or has the cosmic switch been pulled? Case in point: The line between science fiction and science fact is microscopically thin! You have witnessed the line being shaved even thinner! But is the menace with us? Or is the monster gone?"
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Jul 18, 2015 22:59
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I've never seen the X-Files. Listen was really good.
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Jul 18, 2015 23:18
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PriorMarcus posted:Troughton style, actually. Then I definitely can't have a problem with that 
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Jul 18, 2015 23:43
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Payndz posted:"Listen!" I actually ended up reading that in a Rod Serling voice.
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Jul 18, 2015 23:56
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The_Doctor posted:The jumper isn't so bad, it's the polka dot... blouse. the polka dot shirt is rad, it suits him very well. but if the outfit could please keep to a couple of different ones rather than a hodge-podge of shirts, cardigans, jumpers, coats, jackets and waistcoats that would be nice
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Jul 19, 2015 00:16
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nuzak posted:the polka dot shirt is rad, it suits him very well. but if the outfit could please keep to a couple of different ones rather than a hodge-podge of shirts, cardigans, jumpers, coats, jackets and waistcoats that would be nice Yeah, Matt Smith had like five different outfits and none of them were as good as his first.
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Jul 19, 2015 00:19
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Don't you dare watch the X-Files, Toxx. I don't think my fandom and nostalgia could withstand 1,000 word essays tearing apart each episode. Plus you'd probably turn out to be a shipper. Costume talk: I like the holey old man shirt. His costume in general needs way more color though. Most episodes he's just a wall of navy.
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Jul 19, 2015 00:35
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Listen is awful. It's basically peak Timey Wimey bullshit that I sat in front of the TV while it slogged through. Danny's role just felt completely shoehorned in there. (EDIT: Oh god no this is the one with his descendant at the end of the loving universe, even though we played with that previously in Utopia.) It really is Not For Me, but if I had to pick one crime I'd pick capping it off with the TARDIS apparently visiting a young Doctor on Gallifrey.. THE TARDIS KNOWS WHERE GALLIFREY IS?! Why the gently caress is this a meta-narrative arc? I thought Gallifrey was off limits to basically everything after Day Of The Doctor but apparently it took the TARDIS all of about four episodes to find a moment in time where it exists and go there. Yes, I just hate this episode. A later episode did psychological weirdness episodes one better, in my opinion. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Jul 19, 2015 |
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Jul 19, 2015 00:56
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Craptacular! posted:I thought Gallifrey was off limits to basically everything after Day Of The Doctor but apparently it took the TARDIS all of about four episodes to find a moment in time where it exists and go there. They do make a point of saying that Clara is telepathically connected to the TARDIS with every single safety measure turned off - they basically (unintentionally) get to Gallifrey by driving blindfolded off the side of a cliff over shark infested water with the top down during an acid rain superstorm and antennas jammed everywhere in the middle of a lightning storm. Sure you might make it safely one time in a billion, but that doesn't make it a reliable method of travel.
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Jul 19, 2015 01:11
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If you don't love that shot of Twelve meditating on top of the Tardis in deep space we just can't be friends.
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Jul 19, 2015 01:42
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Craptacular! posted:
Dude, they can't find Gallifrey now because the Doctor moved it in Day of the Doctor. He shoved it in a pocket universe. Gallifrey prior to that is exactly where it used to be. Why would Day have moved its past?
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Jul 19, 2015 01:45
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don't watch x-files, instead finish watching+reviewing lms
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Jul 19, 2015 01:49
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MikeJF posted:Dude, they can't find Gallifrey now because the Doctor moved it in Day of the Doctor. He shoved it in a pocket universe. Gallifrey prior to that is exactly where it used to be. Why would Day have moved its past?
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Jul 19, 2015 01:51
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It seems to me they got to Gallifrey the same way that they got to Timeline B where Rose is or the Timelord graveyard in The Doctor's Wife. Both of those involved highly unusual circumstances where the Tardis was forced to do something wonky. Since Gallifrey is stuck in a parallel universe rather than a "time lock" (which I guess we can assume is stronger), it can be visited the same way those places can. E: I mean, pretending Doctor Who has consistent rules for a second.
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Jul 19, 2015 01:58
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Moffat has already explained that anyone can travel freely to and from Gallifrey after Day of the Doctor altered history, it's just that the Doctor hasn't realized it yet.
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Jul 19, 2015 02:02
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ashpanash posted:If you haven't yet seen Farscape, I'd rather see you do that. This is the correct answer.
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Jul 19, 2015 02:44
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Listen leaves you with a lot of questions, some of which it's too early to talk about even, but it's just such a tight episode with a consistent theme from start to finish that it's really, really easy to forgive any consistency problems it has. I don't think it tries to alter who the Doctor is, or to imply that Clara is the reason he is the way he is. It just lets her experience a small slice of his life and understand something about him, which is what this season is about. A lot of people were angry that it showed pre-Hartnell Doctor, but I think everything is vague enough that we only know things about the Doctor and Gallifrey that we already knew (that he isn't strong academically, that their society is run by unfeeling, privileged aristocrats, that at his base, he's just a person, etc.).
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Jul 19, 2015 04:00
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Blasmeister posted:I don't think that's how it works when it's a planet full of time travellers. Otherwise you'd be runnning into time lords from old Who era all the time, surely? The whole time war thing is a bit nonsensical really. I mean there were clearly time lords in the 70s when the Doctor was working with both them and UNIT, but then in the new series we go back in time to the second world war, prior to the 70s, and there aren't any time lords around then? Did the Doctor retroactively kill all the time lords? Did he make it so that, say, The Three Doctors or The War Games never happened? But Russell T Davies surely wouldn't rewrite the show's history to that extent, there's people blowing up about this episode because Clara meets the Doctor for five seconds as a child! A fan explanation would probably be something along the lines of: The time lords did some timey wimey stuff to prevent their own past being altered, so Gallifrey's past is all there but you can't get to it, like New York.
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Jul 19, 2015 04:05
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This was a character study. A drat good one. Stop getting so hung up on absurd made-up science bullshit.
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Jul 19, 2015 04:12
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2house2fly posted:The whole time war thing is a bit nonsensical really. I mean there were clearly time lords in the 70s when the Doctor was working with both them and UNIT, but then in the new series we go back in time to the second world war, prior to the 70s, and there aren't any time lords around then? Did the Doctor retroactively kill all the time lords? Did he make it so that, say, The Three Doctors or The War Games never happened? But Russell T Davies surely wouldn't rewrite the show's history to that extent, there's people blowing up about this episode because Clara meets the Doctor for five seconds as a child! I think it works with the meta-timeline that the show has always sort of had.
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Jul 19, 2015 04:24
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I loved the concept of this episode and the implications behind its handling of the "Monster" and what it does to characterize the Doctor. I also understand the idea behind its stilted dialogue and feeling, and what they were going for, but it annoyed me in every scene. I just don't like this episode in execution, I thought it was a good idea ruined by a half-baked attempt at making the viewer feel uneasy throughout it
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Jul 19, 2015 05:43
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2house2fly posted:The whole time war thing is a bit nonsensical really. I mean there were clearly time lords in the 70s when the Doctor was working with both them and UNIT, but then in the new series we go back in time to the second world war, prior to the 70s, and there aren't any time lords around then? Did the Doctor retroactively kill all the time lords? Did he make it so that, say, The Three Doctors or The War Games never happened? But Russell T Davies surely wouldn't rewrite the show's history to that extent, there's people blowing up about this episode because Clara meets the Doctor for five seconds as a child!
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Jul 19, 2015 08:33
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I think the idea is that you could meet a Time Lord who was visiting a place and time from out of an earlier time in Gallifreyan history, but you just don't. Remember the Reapers from Father's Day? Those times a billion. Nobody with a TARDIS is that dumb. Well, the Master, one time, but we don't talk about it. And even if you were, a TARDIS will automatically stop you from doing it anyway. Gallifrey pre-time-war up until its removal is there, but you don't fly to it because goddamnit 99.9999% chance you'll blow a loving hole in the universe if you do. 100% if you actually try to do anything of note. Every safety protocol in the TARDIS would stop you. poo poo, who turned them off. Fortunately, all Clara did was spook a kid and comfort him a little afterwards. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 09:04 on Jul 19, 2015 |
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Jul 19, 2015 08:53
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Again, though, you're looking at time as a linear thing, which doesn't work in this show. Time lords more or less experience all the events of the universe simultaneously. It isn't even clear if they even have a system for defining when is "now". This isn't some sort of Back To The Future thing where you're careful not to prevent your own birth through your meddling, this show is full of so many gordian knots of time that it seems obvious that the time lords are a kind of society where if you wondered what you're great great great grandfather did, you just travel to his time and introduce yourself and ask him directly and somehow the universe is able to digest all that. In other words, if Gallifrey was a Definitely Do Not Go Zone now then it always has been. PriorMarcus posted:Moffat has already explained that anyone can travel freely to and from Gallifrey after Day of the Doctor altered history, it's just that the Doctor hasn't realized it yet. This actually makes a hell of a lot more sense.
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Jul 19, 2015 09:27
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Craptacular! posted:Again, though, you're looking at time as a linear thing, which doesn't work in this show. Time lords more or less experience all the events of the universe simultaneously. It isn't even clear if they even have a system for defining when is "now". This isn't some sort of Back To The Future thing where you're careful not to prevent your own birth through your meddling, this show is full of so many gordian knots of time that it seems obvious that the time lords are a kind of society where if you wondered what you're great great great grandfather did, you just travel to his time and introduce yourself and ask him directly and somehow the universe is able to digest all that. Not... really. I mean they often reference the past of Gallifrey, the old ones, old High Gallifreyan, the era of Rassilon... that's all behind them, time-war-resurrected-rassilon notwithstanding.
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Jul 19, 2015 09:30
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MikeJF posted:Not... really. I mean they often reference the past of Gallifrey, the old ones, old High Gallifreyan, the era of Rassilon... that's all behind them, time-war-resurrected-rassilon notwithstanding. Well, dunno. It's easy to just say "trying to make any coherent sense out of Doctor Who is stupid" and walk away, but goddamn I always have to try, and it seems like the only thing time lords can't do is hang out with themselves, at least within the same regeneration. Starting with Blink, Moff started playing the idea of the Doctor using humans as lockers for himself to go and get something at another point in time. He bounces back and forth several thousand years in The Big Bang, but uses Rory to sit there as a go-between for a few seconds while The Doctor goes and works for a hundred years and then arrives back a few seconds after he left to close it out. Weirdly, humans are able to interact with themselves at a younger age (Kazran in A Christmas Carol, Amy in The Big Bang), but it's rather consistent that this doesn't extend to the same version of The Doctor. Ten's clone almost blew that one up, but explaining it as an official regeneration that was wasted actually closes the plothole.
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Jul 19, 2015 09:55
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Before Day of the Doctor, Gallifrey (as well as all the other major arenas of the Time War) were time-locked. That seemed to mean that, while all of it happened, they were safely quarantined from obliterating the rest of time and space. Probably a good idea to do with a war between two races of time travellers, honestly. Some things escaped it, but doing so requires either one HELL of a plan (the Cult of Skaro and Rassilon) or just dodging the whole thing in the first place (the Master). After Day of the Doctor, Gallifrey (this time, definitely the exception from the rest of the Time War's arenas) is sealed up in a pocket dimension within a painting, at the exact moment it would have been completely destroyed. They apparently could have escaped that pocket dimension at any point, but needed confirmation of what was on the other side. Clara's remark to them might have been proof enough to get them to come through, given they could travel to it in Listen without any of the usual problems the TARDIS faces when crossing dimensions. However, not only does the Doctor not know where it is, but he doesn't have any loving clue what happened down there between Clara and the Crack, because he was too busy shouting at spaceships at the time. So he might not even know for sure if it's back in the universe yet; if he does, he doesn't know where it is. Also, just so it's clear: TARDISes are fixed to a standard time and order when it comes to Gallifrey. Theoretically, even ignoring the time lock, the Tenth Doctor couldn't go to Gallifrey at a time between when the Fourth and Fifth were. That doesn't always apply (and the Doctor never stuck to those sorts of rules anyway), but it's supposed to. I don't think the same law applies when Time Lords are meeting elsewhere, but I could be wrong.
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Jul 19, 2015 10:00
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Craptacular! posted:Well, dunno. Doctors talking to other regenerations of the same Doctor is meant to be breaking the rules too. It just never ends up happening to be same regeneration because multi-Doctor stories with old actors are cool. Eleven does chat with Eleven in The Big Bang, but all rules were off then. Oh, and he chats with himself a few times in the Minisodes, too. Last Night, for example. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 10:13 on Jul 19, 2015 |
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Jul 19, 2015 10:00
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Humans interacting with themselves can definitely lead to bad things; Rose carrying baby Rose caused issues in Father's Day, and the Brigadier meeting his earlier / later self in Mawdryn Undead caused him to lose huge chunks of his memory. When it does happen it tends to be when all rules are off (Big Bang, Time), or under special circumstances (Christmas).
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Jul 19, 2015 10:05
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Father's Day was sort of an all rules were off event. Rose changed The Doctor's history by changing events right as The Doctor's historical and present version were both standing there and watching. Now historical Nine can't become present Nine and basically the TARDIS bluescreens trying to figure out the definitive order of things. Retroactively, the death birds or whatever they were of Father's Day seem like as good an excuse for any as why he uses humans as go-betweens moving things among different points of his life, almost never meeting himself directly.
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Jul 19, 2015 10:20
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I've always seen it as Gallifrey (and every Time Lord) live their lives contemperaneously regardless of where or when they are in the universe/time - there's an overriding/overarching "Gallifrey Time" that runs in a straight line from beginning to end, separate and distinct from time as we understand it. So even though a Time Lord might be in 1973 London for lunch and then 1949 New York for dinner, time has still passed linearly for the Time Lord and for Gallifrey itself. Which is why outside of things getting really hosed up (usually by the Doctor or the Master), Time Lords tend to meet in the right order all the time, because they're all running along the same timeline regardless of when/where they go in the rest of the universe/history. The events of the Time War just marked the "end" of Gallifrey time. Everything that happened before still happened from the perspective of the remaining Time Lord (the Doctor), even if from the universe's perspective suddenly Time Lords and Daleks had been duking it out since time immemorial. Including all the contradictions/references to events in times that came and went without happening (Moonbases and Transmat systems for feeding the hungry of the world in the early 21st Century/Earth's twin planet showing up on the scene in the 1980s etc). Or in short - it's just a mad mash-up of conflicting paradoxes that it's impossible (and futile) to try and make sense out of. There's no point in trying to unfurl a logical progression, because RTD wasn't concerned with it and neither should you be, and it can all be casually thrown into the,"It doesn't make sense because a Time War wouldn't" box.
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Jul 19, 2015 10:23
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We already have much better canonical explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY_Ry8J_jdw
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Jul 19, 2015 13:24
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ashpanash posted:If you haven't yet seen Farscape, I'd rather see you do that.
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Jul 19, 2015 15:42
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Farscape is excellent, but it has even more wacky space bullshit than Who. Also, X-Files is a generational touchstone so you should watch it first for cultural literacy purposes. But your next space bullshit show should definitely be Farscape, holy poo poo. You'd need to have the strictest no-spoilers, no-hints policy ever, though, for unfiltered Toxx reaction purity.
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Jul 19, 2015 16:09
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Squizzle posted:Farscape is excellent, but it has even more wacky space bullshit than Who. Also, X-Files is a generational touchstone so you should watch it first for cultural literacy purposes. I'm imagining the meltdowns already and it is glorious. I'm late for my annual rematch of Farscape it seems.
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Jul 19, 2015 17:59
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ashpanash posted:This was a character study. A drat good one. Stop getting so hung up on absurd made-up science bullshit. This episode isn't even the worst of the season when it comes to "people overreacting over fake science."
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Jul 19, 2015 18:03
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GonSmithe posted:This episode isn't even the worst of the season when it comes to "people overreacting over fake science." I still think it's "The dinosaur was too big.'
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Jul 19, 2015 18:09
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Now that I think about it, Toxx should do an X-Files watch next. With the new series starting next year, there's a renewed public interest in the series, Netflix has begun putting HD quality remasters out, and he'd have Kumail Nanjiani's podcast to supplement things.
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Jul 19, 2015 21:44
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