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Now that the update is out, no, we will not be seeing Garlic Jr. Which is fine, since Raditz is cool enough to focus on. Also, while it's not time for the boss fight just yet, the music does play in the unwinnable fight with Raditz. So here's his and Nappa's boss theme.  Some Numbers posted:This whole bit has actually been retconned out by Jaco the Galactic Patrolman. But why? 
Blueberry Pancakes fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Sep 13, 2015 |
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Sep 13, 2015 02:58
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Some Numbers posted:I believe that Krillin can't sense energy yet because it's specifically a Kami thing. Goku can't sense energy until he fights King Piccolo. I think that's right, or like Scouters exploding since their signal conditioning amps or whatever get blown away from super high power levels his brain is now fried and he can only count to potato. Might explain why he's become the running joke, he's got a major concussion.
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Sep 13, 2015 04:36
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I honestly wanna see an AU where Goku didn't get bonked on the head, or whatever retcon Jaco the Galactic Patrolman did. I just want to see Kakarot, Vegeta, Raditz and Nappa tear their way through the other bad guys of DBZ.
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Sep 13, 2015 04:43
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There's a fan-comic about that, as I recall. Though, I am curious what Kakarot's power level would be if he gave in to his Saiyan genes. Was his morality holding him back from full power? Would he still have been weaker than Raditz?
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Sep 13, 2015 04:46
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FeyerbrandX posted:I think that's right, or like Scouters exploding since their signal conditioning amps or whatever get blown away from super high power levels his brain is now fried and he can only count to potato. Thing is, here he can't sense Raditz, but a year later, he can sense the other Saiyans and all through Namek, he can sense everyone. What changes? He trains with Kami. Hobgoblin2099 posted:Though, I am curious what Kakarot's power level would be if he gave in to his Saiyan genes. Was his morality holding him back from full power? Would he still have been weaker than Raditz? The Saiyan homeworld's gravity is 10 times stronger than Earth's, which would certainly help. Three months with King Kai and he clowns Nappa. Some Numbers fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Sep 13, 2015 |
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Sep 13, 2015 04:47
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The arrogance concerning power is a massive problem though. Everyone else believes that power is fixed. They don't seem to credit the power of work and necessity. Then again, a lot of races can transform and use that. We're about to get an example-Raditz is shocked at the basis of the Kamehameha and later [Piccolo's beam-too many names], concentrating power into a single point to raise it's real power.
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Sep 13, 2015 05:03
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I'm sorry, guys, I thought Krillin could sense power levels at this point. I'll go and fix the update. Edit: As much fun as I have dogging on Krillin, I could at least dog on him for the right reasons. It's been so long since I saw the beginning of Z, I just assumed most folk could sense power levels at this point. Maybe I should have watched Z prior to this, or done some sort of preparation past playing the first half of the game (again). I apologize, and feel free to laugh and call me dumb while pointing at me. Leave fucked around with this message at 05:16 on Sep 13, 2015 |
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Sep 13, 2015 05:11
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Over the course of Dragon Ball Z it'll become obvious that power levels are dumb and written to show how dumb it really is. It's best to keep in mind it doesn't read strength, speed, or fighting experience just a reading of how much rear end they can kick at that exact moment. I wonder what a human taking a huge poo poo does to their power level anyway.
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Sep 13, 2015 05:16
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Leavemywife posted:I'm sorry, guys, I thought Krillin could sense power levels at this point. I'll go and fix the update. To be fairer to you, it's much less apparent if you are unfamiliar with Dragonball. Goku drinks some super powerup poison, survives and can suddenly sense where King Piccolo is. Everyone is really surprised.
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Sep 13, 2015 05:29
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The thing about power levels is that they're logical for most of the universe: as Ginyu points out, very few races can actually manipulate their powers. During the series, the only races that we fully know can do it are Namekians, Earthlings (who likely learned it from Kami, a Namekian), Saiyans (and only those who have been in contact with Earthlings like Goku, "pure" Saiyans like Raditz have no idea about the ability), Ginyu's race (as per Ginyu's own words), and Cell (who can do it because of his...cells). Most notably, Freeza's race is completely unable to properly control their power levels, causing them to have to create weaker forms to control it. As such, using power levels as a way to know if you can win a fight or not makes sense...as long as you never fight a Namekian or a race that has been in contact with them (or Ginyu). Sadly for Freeza's army, the earthlings (and Goku by association) fall into this category. And Raditz' fight now is against Goku (who has been personally trained by Kami) and Piccolo (a Namekian), so power levels become totally useless, and will continue being so. This also links to another skill, sensing power levels. For races who think they're static, the Scouters are perfect: they put the power levels in number terms, making them super easy to understand, and you only need to lock on to them once to know just how much of a fight you have in your hands. For races who know that they're not, sensing power levels naturally is far more effective, allowing them to adapt to situations with far more ease.
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Sep 13, 2015 05:31
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The odd one out is Vegeta, who becomes able to sense power because... reasons. Frieza might have gained the power in Resurrection of F, but I didn't watch that movie, so I'm not sure if that's the case.
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Sep 13, 2015 06:06
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:The odd one out is Vegeta, who becomes able to sense power because... reasons. I think it's canonically that once Vegeta knew it was possible, he just practiced and spent Namek refining the ability and bam, power sensing. I don't think Freeza developed the ability, but I only saw RoF once so maybe?
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Sep 13, 2015 06:14
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So, Goku's backstory has been retconned a bit. Maybe Toriyama felt that Goku only being heroic because of amnesia was a loving copout, or maybe he just forgot his own origin story, either works. Introducing Dragon Ball Minus. Goku's a bit older than just a baby, but only 3 now. And he's still in an incubator pod. Raditz meanwhile is off being Vegeta's bitch and only survived the planet blowing up because when they got the order to return Vegeta was like "gently caress that we'll just ignore it." Minus introduced a few things.  Firstly, Gine, mother of Goku and Raditz, she's unique for a Saiyan in that she's not really all that violent or arrogant. She is also unique in giving a crap about her children. Bardock's very much influenced a lot by her personality. Regardless, Bardock finds it suspicious that all of the Saiyans are being recalled and is worried for his children.  Regardless, Bardock is sensing death, so he makes the choice to send Goku to Earth, noting that the power levels there are pathetic, there's plenty of food and it should be out of the Planet Trade Organizations general area.  so Goku gets packed onto a space ship in Saiyan armor, sent off, Vegeta gets blown up by Frieza and Goku is found by Grandpa Gohan, who taught him to be a good person, as he was initially very rowdy  Ultimately it's a change of amnesia vs actual nurture, and I prefer it. being good because you hit your head is dumb, being raised by a good person is much better.
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Sep 13, 2015 06:21
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Dragonball Minus also takes the Superman parallels and bashes them over your head until you're dizzy.
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Sep 13, 2015 06:31
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Jesus, as if he wasn't Superman enough. How much older is Raditz than Goku? Because he remembered Bardock even before this retcon, meaning that he had to be at least some sort of adolescent when the planet blew up, right? Not that it ever matters, but I'm curious. It's really weird how Goku has a canonical brother that pops up in the first episode of Z to shake up status quo, but he doesn't really stick around for very long at all. Any other anime would've had him stick around for probably the length of the series, do a face turn, and be one of the heroes by the end of it all. Some Numbers posted:Hahahahaha, sort of? There's no sort of about it  . Up until Toriyama changed his mind, Gohan was the top dog. drat shame this game won't go far enough for him to do the actually cool stuff.
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Sep 13, 2015 06:56
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The thinking that Goku would have destroyed the planet because his parents said to(In effect, 'he's a good boy, just a planet-killer') is an interesting thought.
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Sep 13, 2015 08:32
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SonicRulez posted:Jesus, as if he wasn't Superman enough. How much older is Raditz than Goku? Because he remembered Bardock even before this retcon, meaning that he had to be at least some sort of adolescent when the planet blew up, right? Not that it ever matters, but I'm curious. It's really weird how Goku has a canonical brother that pops up in the first episode of Z to shake up status quo, but he doesn't really stick around for very long at all. Any other anime would've had him stick around for probably the length of the series, do a face turn, and be one of the heroes by the end of it all. Remember that the Z distinction is Anime only, and Toriyama didn't even know the show had that natural switch from 21st world martial arts to Raditz. And when that was pointed out to him, how the end of the 21st is one chapter of Goku's life ending with Raditz kicking off basically an entirely new one he just went. "... Huh you're right look at that. Neat."
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Sep 13, 2015 10:07
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A thing about the retcon: it's not quite as deep as you think. Or rather, it's not as massive as you'd think, even less so than the one you saw just now (YOU'RE AN ALIEN! YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO KILL EVERYONE ON THIS PLANET! AND I'M YOUR BROTHER!). Baby Goku is still kind of a brat, and he still had a personality shift after the head bump. He just wasn't exactly a genocidal monster in the making, more of... well, a young dumb brute, like most Saiyans. Doesn't have the drive to murder Gohan without a thought, but he isn't exactly friendly to him. He's just tolerating him because he has food, and by god, if there's one thing Saiyans like more than fighting, it's food. Bardock says as much right there. I think the intended message there is less about Goku, and more about Gohan himself: he saw the kid's attitude and tried to set him on the right path anyway, attempting to raise him to be a good person no matter how difficult it would be. The bump removed any Saiyan memories, but it was Gohan's actions that really made Goku become the person he is. I think what is really implied there is that even if Goku never bumped his head, Gohan would have helped him change anyway. Cool dude, that Gohan. It was cool of the Ox King to suggest Goku name his son that, especially given that him and Gohan were old pals. Furthermore go read Jaco the Galactic Patrolman, it's awesome and Jaco is awesome.
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Sep 13, 2015 10:19
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I also prefer Goku being good because of a good upbringing, although Father of Goku is still a better tale than Minus.Some Numbers posted:To be fairer to you, it's much less apparent if you are unfamiliar with Dragonball. Goku drinks some super powerup poison, survives and can suddenly sense where King Piccolo is. Everyone is really surprised. Mmm, but remember we saw Popo telling Goku he had to sense his opponent without using the eyes, and he was surprised at the concept. Maybe since that powerup poison was called the ultra divine water it also makes people sense evil/demons?
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Sep 13, 2015 11:36
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Bloodly posted:The arrogance concerning power is a massive problem though. Everyone else believes that power is fixed. They don't seem to credit the power of work and necessity. Then again, a lot of races can transform and use that. I read a theory once that the whole fixed vs controlled power levels was the result of that ever present Japanese trope of talent vs hard work. In short Aliens all think power level is biological, either you're born strong or you're not, while on earth they refine training practices so that potentially anyone could become strong. So an alien doesn't know to hide their power level because that's just them being them self, day to day alien man, while an earthling has to apply the techniques they've trained in to raise their power level but in their day to day their power level is much lower because their biological base is lower. Now introduce earth's training ethic to alien species like Saiyans or Freeza's people and you get stuff like Return of F. I don't recall the source on this theory so I can't give you the full argument, there was something in there as well about earthlings learning ki manipulation being spiritual in some way and the reason Ginyu couldn't use Goku's body properly was because his mind/spirit wasn't in sync with the body so he couldn't access the deeper well of power compared to an alien that's all surface power.
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Sep 13, 2015 11:38
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Also because most of Goku's power is from proper technique. Kaioken isn't an inborn ability after all.
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Sep 13, 2015 12:03
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Leavemywife posted:
You can most likely add all of the guards in the Red Ribbon Army Base to this one as well. Goku was goddamn brutal as a kid.
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Sep 13, 2015 12:07
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People keep bringing up the red ribbon guys as if Goku brutally murdered all of them but I honestly don't see it, he mostly knocks them out and leaves them making funny faces as usual. We could count the times he blows up an helicopter with a soldier in it but even in that case it's too indirect to see Goku as a bloodthirsty kid. Animals and demons are different though.
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Sep 13, 2015 12:51
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Leavemywife posted:I'd like to see Raditz as a criminal attorney or something. FTFY My only regret is that I'm not better at editing. Feels so crude.
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Sep 13, 2015 13:18
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Onmi posted:Ultimately it's a change of amnesia vs actual nurture, and I prefer it. being good because you hit your head is dumb, being raised by a good person is much better. Wasn't it that because of the amnesia he was able to be raised good? Like, before he was shoved in the pod and sent to earth he had a couple of basic instructions imprinted on his brain (look at the moon, kill cities, eat people,) and when he hit his head he forgot all of that and then Grandpa Gohan was able to start teaching him to be an alright kid? I prefer the Father of Goku version because it has the additional irony that if Frieza hadn't blown the planet up, someone probably would have noticed Goku's failure after a couple of years, they'd have sent someone more competent to kill the planet properly (instead of waiting 20 years for Raditz to remember where he was sent) and collect him for reprogramming. Instead, Frieza genociding the Saiyans kicks off a chain of events that allows Goku to be brought up in a way that leads to him bringing about Frieza's downfall.
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Sep 13, 2015 14:57
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Maybe I've been raised on shittier (or better?) anime, but always got the vibe that Bardock wasn't totally a douchetruck. I guess I am incorrect. Also why does the manga spell it Burdock? That just sounds like Bird Duck, so welp, I guess that's his name now.
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Sep 13, 2015 15:01
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Petiso posted:Mmm, but remember we saw Popo telling Goku he had to sense his opponent without using the eyes, and he was surprised at the concept. Maybe since that powerup poison was called the ultra divine water it also makes people sense evil/demons? It's been quite a while since I read that part of Dragonball, so you're probably right. It could be that the Ultra Divine Water unlocked the ability and training with Popo and Kami refined it?
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Sep 13, 2015 15:22
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Keeshhound posted:Wasn't it that because of the amnesia he was able to be raised good? Like, before he was shoved in the pod and sent to earth he had a couple of basic instructions imprinted on his brain (look at the moon, kill cities, eat people,) and when he hit his head he forgot all of that and then Grandpa Gohan was able to start teaching him to be an alright kid? Except He didn't have any instructions imprinted, they don't tell new Saiyans squat, they just send them out and hope for the best. Goku was just a troubled baby because he's a Saiyan and they're aggressive as gently caress. Goku's still a fight-happy retard, but he's a fight-happy retard who doesn't know even his basic instincts.
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Sep 13, 2015 15:23
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Wow, Dragonball minus makes Goku into Japanese Superman. I feel like the DBZA version of Father of Goku is the most accurate compared to Bardock's original characterization and how the Saiyan race (or anyone really) would respond to someone claiming that their benevolent overlord is going to throw them away on a whim. Can someone post a summary of Jaco? A Space-Cop side story sounds like a lot of fun.
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Sep 13, 2015 15:35
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RickVoid posted:Wow, Dragonball minus makes Goku into Japanese Superman. quote:Can someone post a summary of Jaco? A Space-Cop side story sounds like a lot of fun.
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Sep 13, 2015 15:38
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Radditz is lucky Toriyama remembered him for the Minus story.
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Sep 13, 2015 15:39
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Some Numbers posted:Jaco's only one volume and well well worth reading. Just grab it at a bookstore or on Amazon. I'm actually next door to my local B&N right now, i'll have to check their manga section once my oil change is done.
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Sep 13, 2015 15:43
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It's important to note that "Gohan" can also mean rice, so yes, Goku did name his son after food.
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Sep 13, 2015 15:50
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You know, I'd be more accepting of the whole "good nurturing made Goku good" idea except...Some Numbers posted:Dragonball Minus also takes the Superman parallels and bashes them over your head until you're dizzy. This. My God. While I've heard good things about Jaco the Patrolman, I just hope Minus is the only low point in it. I'm honestly not okay with Goku being Japan's equivalent to the most boring superhero ever. I mean yeah, the parallels were always there but this is just awful.
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Sep 13, 2015 15:56
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So who is Lex Luthor? I want to claim Vegeta is Batman, but the parallels aren't quite there. Maybe a super evil Batman.
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Sep 13, 2015 16:02
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Gero would be the closest. Cell is Amazo.
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Sep 13, 2015 16:04
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The Heart Virus from the Androids Arc is Goku's Kryptonite. 
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Sep 13, 2015 16:13
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ParanoidLogician posted:This. My God. While I've heard good things about Jaco the Patrolman, I just hope Minus is the only low point in it. I'm honestly not okay with Goku being Japan's equivalent to the most boring superhero ever. I mean yeah, the parallels were always there but this is just awful. Read Jaco. Bloodly posted:Cell is Amazo.  Holy poo poo, you're right.
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Sep 13, 2015 16:14
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ParanoidLogician posted:I'm honestly not okay with Goku being Japan's equivalent to the most boring superhero ever. I mean yeah, the parallels were always there but this is just awful. Goku is the last survivor (or at least we thought so at the time) from an exploding alien planet. He crash lands on Earth and is raised into a pure-hearted hero by an Earthling. That's literally Superman's origin right down to him not actually being the last Kryptonian. The only thing Goku's is missing is a cape. It's not like it was ever subtle. Goku is Japanese Superman bordering on parody until the actual story gets rolling. Listen to his Super Saiyan speech versus Frieza where he's talking about being the defender of the universe. Now imagine it's Superman talking to Darkseid. Is any of it different at all? Onmi posted:Remember that the Z distinction is Anime only, and Toriyama didn't even know the show had that natural switch from 21st world martial arts to Raditz. And when that was pointed out to him, how the end of the 21st is one chapter of Goku's life ending with Raditz kicking off basically an entirely new one he just went. Also, the only way you would find Superman to be the most boring hero is if you haven't read the right books. I know the Z distinction is anime only, but Toriyama didn't even consider Raditz's appearance as a new arc? Like he didn't see this as a new chapter of the story at all?
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Sep 13, 2015 17:22
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SonicRulez posted:Goku is the last survivor (or at least we thought so at the time) from an exploding alien planet. He crash lands on Earth and is raised into a pure-hearted hero by an Earthling. That's literally Superman's origin right down to him not actually being the last Kryptonian. The only thing Goku's is missing is a cape. It's not like it was ever subtle. Goku is Japanese Superman bordering on parody until the actual story gets rolling. Listen to his Super Saiyan speech versus Frieza where he's talking about being the defender of the universe. Now imagine it's Superman talking to Darkseid. Is any of it different at all? He considered his appearance the beginning of the Saiyan arc. But he didn't think of it as the story of Goku having closed and the story of Gohan beginning. Or even a shift from the mystical to the science fiction. It's one of the amazing things about him, Toriyama just wrote what came to mind. 
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Sep 13, 2015 17:31
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