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I believe "Better enemy AI" is the answer you guys seem to be looking for. Whether we get it remains to be seen.
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Oct 1, 2015 20:15
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Better enemy A.I is hard to make, there can be simpler solutions than that.
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Oct 1, 2015 20:48
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xutech posted:Why do you have to punish some players for what is an enjoyable playstyle? This is reinventing the wheel when there are even old games like Thief (1998 and onward) that were able to offer some clever solutions, like different noise levels of floors (metal, carpet, wood) or cones of detection (stay out of the line of sight) or a detection gem or other metric to measure detection levels. The lack of a direct skill system in Fallout 4 gives them the opportunity to implement better stealth, I think. When you don't give players a big Sneak skill to upgrade, you don't have to worry as much about finding a linear way for your sneaking effectiveness to increase. Instead of giving players a scale of 0 to 100 where 0 is "you can't sneak" and 100 is "you're somehow pretty much invisible because abstraction," they can instead offer a selection of perks, likely associated with Agility and/or Perception, that allow you to sneak better in specific, tangible ways. Then implement sight cones and more robust sound detection, maybe throw in some mutated animals who can detect you by scent, and you're golden. Whether Bethesda takes that opportunity, of course, is a very different question. It's entirely possible there'll just be a "Sneaky Little poo poo" perk that you can put points in to become invisible just like the old Sneak skill.
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Oct 1, 2015 20:55
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All I know is if I take the time to sneak up behind some fool and brain him with an axe or shoot him in the back of the head with a decent caliber and he doesn't die, I'll be mad/unsatisfied and probably won't stealth much if at all the rest of the game.
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Oct 1, 2015 20:58
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FutonForensic posted:After MGS5, I'm not too keen on playing stealth when I can't distract enemies with a knock or decoy. Using stealth to control my environment is more satisfying than waiting for my environment to give me an opportunity to act. Does that make sense? I don't think that makes sense... oh..... Nah, I understand. I thought MGS 5 was easy, then I watched people playing, and holy dogshit, people seem to be so genuinely bad at it. I realized that I was reading situations and opportunities well and adapting to them. Then I went back and played Payday 2's stealth, and was so annoyed by how much time I spent just waiting for randomized guard patterns to finally sync up enough that I could move away from the couch I was hiding behind. I definitely prefer alterations that make stealth a fluid thinker's game, but that it's also probably pretty hard to do with a Bethesda engine.
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Oct 1, 2015 21:29
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Harrow posted:The lack of a direct skill system in Fallout 4 gives them the opportunity to implement better stealth, I think. When you don't give players a big Sneak skill to upgrade, you don't have to worry as much about finding a linear way for your sneaking effectiveness to increase. Instead of giving players a scale of 0 to 100 where 0 is "you can't sneak" and 100 is "you're somehow pretty much invisible because abstraction," they can instead offer a selection of perks, likely associated with Agility and/or Perception, that allow you to sneak better in specific, tangible ways. Then implement sight cones and more robust sound detection, maybe throw in some mutated animals who can detect you by scent, and you're golden. 
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Oct 1, 2015 21:35
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And there will likely still be items/gear to essentially do it for you/break it anyway. At base I don't think skyrim's noise detection/vision cones/etc. were absolutely terrible. Like, they weren't stealth game level of good or even good at all really but they felt acceptable enough. The issue was more that it was really easy to do at range with a Bow and I don't recall anybody going to the direction of the shot. The patrols/after-math was the poo poo part of that. Same with fallout, really. The stealth isn't absolute poo poo, but the items making it super easy and the lack of decent after-math make it lovely.
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Oct 1, 2015 21:40
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I never ever tried stealth melee in Fallout 3/NV or Skyrim, is it like...even possible? Even making less damage going ranged stealth seems more convenient...
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Oct 1, 2015 21:45
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frajaq posted:I never ever tried stealth melee in Fallout 3/NV or Skyrim, is it like...even possible? Even making less damage going ranged stealth seems more convenient... Very possible and much more balanced. If you get caught out you're a lot more vulnerable than just going 'lol afk till they stop looking for me'.
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Oct 1, 2015 21:49
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xutech posted:Why do you have to punish some players for what is an enjoyable playstyle? This is reinventing the wheel when there are even old games like Thief (1998 and onward) that were able to offer some clever solutions, like different noise levels of floors (metal, carpet, wood) or cones of detection (stay out of the line of sight) or a detection gem or other metric to measure detection levels. In the good stealth games you cite as an example you're incredibly squishy, because stealth is what the games are designed for, and there has to be a 'punishment' (so to speak) for not sneaking. With an open world game like TES you have to design for the player being skilled at multiple things, which means that detection isn't really a big deal - you just stand up and waste the enemies like you would anyway. There's no reason not to try sneaking at the start of every encounter, except for the fact that it's slightly annoying to not move as fast. A penalty to failing a sneak encounter means that you're slightly weaker than you would be (which has an element of verisimilitude anyway, you're being caught off guard and not prepared for a face-to-face fight). It lets players who aren't specced to be sneaky try it every once in a while, and it gives the player a sense of progression once they start speccing into sneak, which is satisfying, and differentiates between playstyles. Edit: If you wanted to shift from negative reinforcement to positive reinforcement, then you could take a similar idea (successful sneaking makes you more powerful, unsuccessful sneaking is undesirable) and have a sneak gauge type thing. Have it build up as the player sneaks, and have it build faster when the player is near an enemy object. The sneak gauge gives you combat bonuses, but these dissipate once you're detected. Balance it around having to successfully sneak in multiple encounters for it to reach full potential. Modify build rate, detection rate, and bonuses with perks. sector_corrector fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Oct 1, 2015 |
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Oct 1, 2015 22:15
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Some videos with interviews of the devs, though I seem to recall I've heard most of it before: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGjn4D0cztI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xib7adolRs
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Oct 1, 2015 22:24
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Holy poo poo Emil Pagliarulo really shaped up ever since Fallout 3
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Oct 1, 2015 22:35
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frajaq posted:I never ever tried stealth melee in Fallout 3/NV or Skyrim, is it like...even possible? Even making less damage going ranged stealth seems more convenient... Melee stealth in Skyrim involves your heavy armored stealth specced Khajjit supplexing her way through a mine of very briefly surprised vikings and then falling onto a hag-raven daggers first. It's an enormously entertaining way to play. You have to leave your companion outside though, because they're too stupid to live.
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Oct 2, 2015 01:23
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That sounds interesting, I could never bear using companions in Skyrim anyway, always too scared of them dying on me and I feel bad  (that was before I discovered the few Essential ones)
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Oct 2, 2015 01:27
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ymgve posted:Some videos with interviews of the devs, though I seem to recall I've heard most of it before: That concept art of the ghoul in a british redcoat and the bowling outfits.  I was never a fan of the pre war outfits in Fallout, but a goddamn bowling shirt would be awesome. Hopefully females can wear them and dont just turn into a drat skirt. There's women in pants in Fallout 4 right?
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Oct 2, 2015 01:33
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Peztopiary posted:Melee stealth in Skyrim involves your heavy armored stealth specced Khajjit supplexing her way through a mine of very briefly surprised vikings and then falling onto a hag-raven daggers first. It's an enormously entertaining way to play. You have to leave your companion outside though, because they're too stupid to live. You also don't wear a shirt, you use alteration and restoration magic because if I'm going to play a Monk I'm gonna do it right... ...by dropping the Peoples Elbow on a dragons neck.
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Oct 2, 2015 01:40
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I like the Forsworn armor, and since their king and I are buds I usually wear that around. Skyrim is a fun sandbox, which is good because dang is the story poo poo.
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Oct 2, 2015 01:48
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Peztopiary posted:I like the Forsworn armor, and since their king and I are buds I usually wear that around. Skyrim is a fun sandbox, which is good because dang is the story poo poo. Narrative is poo poo, definitely. Added some cool lore though.
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Oct 2, 2015 02:16
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GyverMac posted:But how am I supposed to be playing wasteland dressup if I already get a wicked iron man-kill-everything-upgradable-armour-ready-at-a-drop-of-a-hat thing? Seriously out of all the other worries in this thread, the whole power armour thing got me the most upset. Half of the fun in Fallout 3 was to pick up bits and pieces of clothing/armour and try to get the best protection while look cool at the same time. Something limited enough that you only bring out the power armor for serious business.
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Oct 2, 2015 02:18
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Inverness posted:It's plenty reasonable to assume that there will be some mechanic that limits how much you can use the armor. Fuel or power of some sort. Limited by main quest sections, I'm calling it now.
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Oct 2, 2015 02:19
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Meridian posted:Limited by main quest sections, I'm calling it now. Seeing as they have a separate crafting area just for the armor, I do highly doubt that.
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Oct 2, 2015 02:20
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LornMarkus posted:Seeing as they have a separate crafting area just for the armor, I do highly doubt that. I really hope so, but I'm a cynical bastard when it comes to games these days. Either way, I'm stoked on how the armor layering system looks so even if they do the worst possible thing with power armor it's not going to break my heart.
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Oct 2, 2015 02:26
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Meridian posted:I really hope so, but I'm a cynical bastard when it comes to games these days. Either way, I'm stoked on how the armor layering system looks so even if they do the worst possible thing with power armor it's not going to break my heart. If nothing else Obsidian will do amazing poo poo with it in Fallout: Hawaii.
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Oct 2, 2015 02:28
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LornMarkus posted:If nothing else Obsidian will do amazing poo poo with it in Fallout: Hawaii. Fingers crossed dude, for real. I'd love to see Obsidian do Washington, personally.
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Oct 2, 2015 02:30
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Fallout PNW would be amazing, yes.
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Oct 2, 2015 03:02
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They really need to do Dogtown. There's plenty of urban and nature areas to make it interesting.
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Oct 2, 2015 03:14
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Obsidion gets a lot of credit from me for turning Nevada into a sandbox of adventure with story-continuity between the settlements. "Shandification," as they call it, where the setting IS the story. Not to say that Bethesda can't do Shandification themselves, it just depends on who's running the project. Morrowind was pretty Shandified.
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Oct 2, 2015 03:16
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Speedball posted:Obsidion gets a lot of credit from me for turning Nevada into a sandbox of adventure with story-continuity between the settlements. "Shandification," as they call it, where the setting IS the story. Morrowind had a lot of Michael Kirkbride, to it's credit. Be interesting to see his take on Fallout. There'd probably be space rad roaches.
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Oct 2, 2015 03:19
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Peztopiary posted:Fallout PNW would be amazing, yes. I'm imagining it covering everything from New Arroyo in the south to the BC interior in the north, particularly the ruins of Seattle and Vancouver. They could do so many interesting things with a setting like this.
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Oct 2, 2015 03:22
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Speedball posted:Not to say that Bethesda can't do Shandification themselves, it just depends on who's running the project. Morrowind was pretty Shandified. Todd Howard has run all their projects since Morrowind. So giant bug buses, him. Painfully generic Imperial capital, also him. The man has layers.
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Oct 2, 2015 03:31
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Plan Z posted:Nah, I understand. I thought MGS 5 was easy, then I watched people playing, and holy dogshit, people seem to be so genuinely bad at it. I realized that I was reading situations and opportunities well and adapting to them. Then I went back and played Payday 2's stealth, and was so annoyed by how much time I spent just waiting for randomized guard patterns to finally sync up enough that I could move away from the couch I was hiding behind. I definitely prefer alterations that make stealth a fluid thinker's game, but that it's also probably pretty hard to do with a Bethesda engine. Fluid stealth is probably also beyond the average bethesda fan's skill scope or patience to not build up crits/cheat max stats and say gently caress it, although they'd probably love a race of women that breathe through their skin Boogaleeboo posted:Todd Howard has run all their projects since Morrowind. So giant bug buses, him. Painfully generic Imperial capital, also him. The man has layers. .Question is which one's the outer layer and which ones are the inner ones as I can expect the few more fantastical things were quickly burned out for regular poo poo down the line. Even the Mighty Todd Howard can run out of ideas.
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Oct 2, 2015 03:47
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LornMarkus posted:Seeing as they have a separate crafting area just for the armor, I do highly doubt that.
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Oct 2, 2015 04:00
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Peztopiary posted:Fallout PNW would be amazing, yes. There's a big mod coming out later this year called "The Frontier" that takes place in Portland. Looks pretty solid, if the trailers are anything to go by.
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Oct 2, 2015 04:22
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frajaq posted:I never ever tried stealth melee in Fallout 3/NV or Skyrim, is it like...even possible? Even making less damage going ranged stealth seems more convenient... The biggest problem with it is that A. some enemies are basically psychic. Forsworn briarhearts in particular are really hard to sneak up on if you aren't maxed out. Couple that with the fact that they'll just immediately know where you are if you kill someone, even if they don't get alerted, it can be annoying to have a guy just run down instantly and start looking for you. B. The HP and armor of higher tier enemies can get bad so while you'll easily be able to take out most dudes with one sneak hit, there can be times where you'll hit some fancy draugr deathlord or whatever and only do like a quarter of his health and immediately get spotted afterwards which just leaves you open to get murdered.
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Oct 2, 2015 04:54
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FronzelNeekburm posted:Well, you can gate it with unique items that only show up in Main Story Dungeon #15, like MGSV. "Crafting Boombox Shoulder Pads requires 16x radio, 5x gramophone, 1x copy of Kid 'n Play's 2 Hype" They will never turn the minstrels from Skyrim into Doofwagon drummers or even the lighties guy from Mad Max game. Also Skyrim stealth is even weirder when you can still wear no armor and get less visibility somehow. Like I'm not kidding, nude nord stealth is broken as poo poo even without high sneak until you get special thieves guild armor and their enchantments. Its so weird that the one thing they do get right in sort of reactive stealth is being able to fire arrows to draw people or not wear shoes and armor to make less noise when you walk. Crabtree fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Oct 2, 2015 |
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Oct 2, 2015 05:15
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Nuebot posted:The biggest problem with it is that A. some enemies are basically psychic. Forsworn briarhearts in particular are really hard to sneak up on if you aren't maxed out. Couple that with the fact that they'll just immediately know where you are if you kill someone, even if they don't get alerted, it can be annoying to have a guy just run down instantly and start looking for you. B. The HP and armor of higher tier enemies can get bad so while you'll easily be able to take out most dudes with one sneak hit, there can be times where you'll hit some fancy draugr deathlord or whatever and only do like a quarter of his health and immediately get spotted afterwards which just leaves you open to get murdered. Yeah, but contrast that with the fact that you can shoot a dude square in the eye with an arrow and duck behind a pillar and within about forty seconds he'll be all, 'Huh, guess that arrow was just my imagination,' and go back to wandering around. If an NPC has actually taken a hit, they should basically never go off alert from that point on, and they should be doing their best to rouse all of their buddies to find whoever just shot them in the rear end.
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Oct 2, 2015 05:18
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Valatar posted:Yeah, but contrast that with the fact that you can shoot a dude square in the eye with an arrow and duck behind a pillar and within about forty seconds he'll be all, 'Huh, guess that arrow was just my imagination,' and go back to wandering around. If an NPC has actually taken a hit, they should basically never go off alert from that point on, and they should be doing their best to rouse all of their buddies to find whoever just shot them in the rear end. The fun thing about that though is that enemies regen health once they stop being on alert. So being a weak sniper trying to kill a strong vampire is a lesson in futility because they'll regen their HP before they walk back to their starting point if you can't oneshot them. But I'll still take the silly but mostly functional bow stealth over failing to oneshot dudes leads to death on the melee route.
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Oct 2, 2015 05:32
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Acebuckeye13 posted:There's a big mod coming out later this year called "The Frontier" that takes place in Portland. Looks pretty solid, if the trailers are anything to go by. The trailer on http://www.falloutthefrontier.com/ looks pretty terrible, and worst of all it appears to be another NCR vs. Caesar's Legion conflict. Caesar's Legion being in Portland is such an improbable situation that they must have just chosen the location at random, which leads to the other really disappointing thing about the plot which is that we are all excited to see how life/people adapted in the PNW but this story is just about two foreign powers that we already know from FONV.
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Oct 2, 2015 08:18
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The thing about Bethesda's story is that they've always been hamstrung by the need to have an open world with a player character who could have any imagined background and motivation and skills. So they're actually quite good at providing a plausible motivation for any character to follow the main quest while shying away from doing anything more than that for fear of breaking immersion. That's why I think it's so interesting the player character is being voiced - beyond the technical advance it implies a shift in design philosophy where they're consciously making a game with a main character who has an existence independent of the player's imagination.
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Oct 2, 2015 08:38
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I liked that about their games.
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Oct 2, 2015 08:57
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