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I vote for The Cogs speech. I think it emphasizes what we believe without necessarily tells people what to believe, and gets them thinking more deeply about their faith.
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Dec 11, 2015 02:56
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| # ? Apr 27, 2024 19:30 |
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2Q: Make several false starts without actually uttering more than half a syllable each time. Finally shrug and say "I've been asking Ishamal for similar answers since I was a small child and he's not told me much. The... beings I've seen and spoken to are far less forthcoming with their knowledge than even he is, if you can imagine that. The thing we found buried? Nothing more than a man like Tudiya or Ishamal, only far more ancient. The only other thing I can add are two phrases: 'Do not Destroy' and 'Mercy is never misplaced'. All else I know is seeded with doubt and speculation. For all I've seen and experienced, I do not believe I can confirm or deny anything more with certainty. Changed vote later to abstain from voting. A Terrible Person fucked around with this message at 06:31 on Dec 11, 2015 |
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Dec 11, 2015 02:58
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TheCog posted:Fine, alternate speech. I am changing my vote to this. Claiming divine revelation to crush the Melachim sect is exactly the sort of thing that Ishamal would hate. Remember, he and Zeb were the ones who originally talked Tudiya into allowing the heretics to set up shot in Zepath. I think he has a soft spot for them.
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Dec 11, 2015 02:59
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A Terrible Person posted:1H You know what, gently caress it. Rescind my vote for V and Switch to this. "Guys, I really don't have all the answers."
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Dec 11, 2015 03:05
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Since i only have my last final in 12 hours and am really tired of studying I'm gonna throw my own plan in the mix because as we all know they tend to be the correctest ones. "My brothers. Since our youth we have fought side by side and made of ourselves what none would have dared to think of back then. Since then we have together done and seen things that even kings would not see in tens of their lifetimes. Together we have witnessed some strange things that leave us questioning our faith and if what we have been told about the world is true. You think that I speak with the melachim and recieve guidance from above or know right from wrong any better than you or others. While it is true that I have spoken with the melachim it is rarely more than a vague hint and often leaves me with more unanswered questions than at the start. You want to know if El is real. It is neither my will nor my place to tell you what to belive and I do not wish to tell anyone that his faith is any more or any less valid than any faith of others. But what I know is that 'El' is very real. I do not claim to know what El is, whether he is The Creator or an impostor, whether he has a will or whether he is controlled by the melachim. I have often sat wondering long into the night about the nature of El but I can never be certain of anything. I implore you not to take any of my speculations to heart. All I know for sure is that it has never done me wrong to trust in my faith. I advise you to tread lightly when you question your faith, more knowledge of these matters may be no more than a burden. Is not the world very simple to one as certain in his beliefs as Uriah? Our free will matters greatly. Use it to make the world a better place, I will not hold you to a higher standard than that. As to Amok (or however they refer to him, idk if we told them his name was Amok). He is an ancient being. I don't think he is a demon or evil in any way, but he is truly ancient and his kind forgotten... for good reason. Meeting him has only left me with even more questions asked. I showed him my memories of the battle at Ibleam. After that he shouted in rage and flew off. He never told me his intentions. "
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Dec 11, 2015 03:10
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TheCog posted:Fine, alternate speech. I'll switch to this
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Dec 11, 2015 03:14
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Basscop posted:Since i only have my last final in 12 hours and am really tired of studying I'm gonna throw my own plan in the mix because as we all know they tend to be the correctest ones. Based on Diog's input this speech seems fairly wise. Only at the end we unfold our wings and fly away.
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Dec 11, 2015 03:20
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Blessed be El and Father of our people, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the lifting of Labaras to Mt. Har, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in the Mountain for you, Who are kept by the power of El through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the light of El: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
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Dec 11, 2015 03:28
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Tomn posted:GET THOSE loving TABLETS I feel like this hasn't been emphasized enough, so I would like to add my voice to the call: GET THOSE loving TABLETS Also, my vote: 2. T: Plan TheCog (not TheCog Alternate Speech).
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Dec 11, 2015 03:37
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I suck at writing speeches and Basscop says what I would have wanted to. Only I think we should leave out suggesting El is an impostor. It's such a loaded statement that they'll assume we put in there as an obvious 'Hey guys! Read into this! Go hog wild!' which is the opposite of what we might want. Yeah, and at some point get those tablets. Try and figure out how old they are. What's the bet some/all of them look suspiciously different to millenia old clay.
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Dec 11, 2015 03:38
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ffs long rear end speeches that have completely unforeseen consequences- remember that time we almost got our poo poo pushed in via retconned duel with that Mighty Man from Dor? Voting El is very real- take from this what you will Less  is always more in this game
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Dec 11, 2015 03:38
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Vavrek posted:Also, my vote: 2. T: Plan TheCog (not TheCog Alternate Speech). "I would like to vote for plan TheCog with certain addendums and qualifications. Item 1a..."
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Dec 11, 2015 03:38
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TheCog posted:Fine, alternate speech. Changing my vote to this. I'm starting to see what Ishamal was so worried about. Just by existing we are making waves in the world around us. Powerful waves. Even if we say the things they want (Worship El not the Melachim, The House of El is pretty ok, Blooded people are cool, or Labaras was awesome) it's bad because that strongly influences people one way or the other. This drives middle management insane as their main policy consists of Don't touch anything!
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Dec 11, 2015 03:41
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2. Basscop speech
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Dec 11, 2015 03:48
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maxhush posted:ffs long rear end speeches that have completely unforeseen consequences- remember that time we almost got our poo poo pushed in via retconned duel with that Mighty Man from Dor? Now who says we couldn't have totally taken that dude? And he was from Gezer that little shitnugget. He woulda walked into Kavodel to get his rear end kicked and ran back home with his spear between his legs.
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Dec 11, 2015 03:52
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Ugh changing from Theglavwen to The Cog's Alternate speech
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Dec 11, 2015 04:01
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Tsyni posted:"I would like to vote for plan TheCog with certain addendums and qualifications. Item 1a..." I was going to say the original one, but option T was actually edited when (I think?) Diog pointed out we hadn't told anyone Amok's name, and so it was like "Well, TheCog's speech, but not the alternate version--not the original one, the one that was revised, but not, you know, the one he just revis--look, it's option T, okay?" Some time I kind of want a big complicated speech to be assembled by a big vote, one numbered option for each sentence. The result would be some horrid mismatch. It would be beautiful. We could convince the citizens of Kavodel Enkidel'd had a stroke.
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Dec 11, 2015 04:08
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We did that once or twice. The consensus was I would be murdered in my sleep if we did it again heh.
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Dec 11, 2015 04:14
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sticking to the original cog
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Dec 11, 2015 04:23
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Slaan posted:Which is why we should work with her more. Plus, Puabi-sama~ She's gotta be pushing 60 at this point. Diog, how is Puabi doing?
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Dec 11, 2015 04:27
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Kinda disappointed that people are steering away from telling the truth, or from any firm answers, for fear of causing ripples. For once our friends are asking for answers on something we're actually more or less allowed to talk about, or that at least is in a grey sort of area, but that option seems less tempting in the light of options that avoid the responsibility of shaking the status quo? I get it, but our friends are coming to us in earnest, asking for what we know. Shaking up their beliefs isn't a disastrous consequence, if that's what comes of the truth, well they deserve upfront frankness from us when we're actually able to give it without inviting divine temper tantrums. If you're worried that there will be honest divine repercussions from the more forthcoming plans, or that the Melachim will be upset that we mentioned them talking to us, or trying to avoid notice, well I guess I get it. But if you're just worried about the responsibility of maybe disrupting their faith or changing people's minds, and what comes of that? I can't get behind that. We're not 'dictating their faith' or influencing people to think the way we want or anything, we're just giving them information about the world, information that they can use to form their own informed opinions. It's not wrong if things get shaken up by that; exactly the opposite. They've come to us as their friend, to tell them what we know that would make sense of these events; they haven't asked us for evasion and vague, non-comittal statements of belief, and I think we're doing them an injustice if that's what we give them. I guess you could say that the information we have, that El is real and the Melachim try not to interfere comes about by virtue of our Nephilim nature, and so it would be 'interfering' to give them information they wouldn't have found out on their own. Sort of an 'if the Melachim wanted them to know, they would have told them' sort of deal. Even so, I don't think it's much beyond what they can see for themselves: they've seen the El pyre, El doesn't try to hide from people, and nobody, as far as we know, is damning Labaras or the Church for confirming that El exists. Our men believe us not because of our 'divine' heritage, but because they trust us, and because they've seen us involved in direct intervention. We're only confirming what they already know, that we've seen some poo poo, and if El or the Melachim didn't want them knowing that, or knowing that El is real, well they probably shouldn't be enacting miracles right in front of them. The Melachim want people coming to their own conclusions: well the conclusions they have reached is that they're pretty sure they're missing some pieces, they want to find out what they are, and that Enkidel is a tool they can use to make sense of things. They've come to all this by themselves, they want to know the truth of issues that are being shoved in their faces, and if that truth is something that will help them come to their own opinions, and won't break any big metaphysical rules, then it seems like they deserve the fruit of their enquiries, rather than being foisted off. It's like Enkidel and the parentage thing. We all knew what was up, we all knew we weren't normal, and that something unique was going on. We'd fit together all the pieces we had, we saw the shape of the puzzle, but nobody would give us any more pieces, so we had no way to move forward and it only caused trouble. Finally Amok was upfront, and we all went 'oh, good, cool then' and grew as a character. Let's not needlessly frustrate our friends when they've already seen the shape of the puzzle, give them the pieces they need and let them keep working on it. Ah well, I have to go to sleep.
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Dec 11, 2015 04:36
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I like your speech, but I am leaning back toward being more vague and honest with how little we know. We think we know things, and I don't have a problem telling Paebel and co. all that...but if we even SAY we think we know something they're going to attach more weight to it than we may like.
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Dec 11, 2015 04:42
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Tsyni posted:I've got it, what if we also tell them that us, a half-melachim, don't necessarily defer to a higher power...eh...ehhhh!? lol this
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Dec 11, 2015 04:51
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Theglavwen posted:Kinda disappointed that people are steering away from telling the truth, or from any firm answers, for fear of causing ripples. For once our friends are asking for answers on something we're actually more or less allowed to talk about, or that at least is in a grey sort of area, but that option seems less tempting in the light of options that avoid the responsibility of shaking the status quo? I get it, but our friends are coming to us in earnest, asking for what we know. Shaking up their beliefs isn't a disastrous consequence, if that's what comes of the truth, well they deserve upfront frankness from us when we're actually able to give it without inviting divine temper tantrums. I keep saying this, but I've got some more fleshed out ideas. These friends asking us the questions now become our high priests. We can veil the new religion by having only them know the truth. When we get back to Kavodel they spread the word of a new "melachim" named Og that saved us and intervened in Giant Town and is totally the greatest "melachim" and who they should focus their worship on. Then we get the heretics of Kavodel all worshipping us. As the man in charge of Kavodel we can start to slowly persuade all members of Kavodel that this Og guy is behind all of the prosperity in Kavodel and that they might want to start worshipping him also. We can flash our wings at Hagar and get her on board with this as well. Tsyni fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Dec 11, 2015 |
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Dec 11, 2015 04:52
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2 Changing my vote from plan Cornuto to plan BASSCOP. I like that approach and think it will have the desired outcome I also think we should talk more about the red cedar and how we made something out of it. And the spear we made was that white tree marble stuff? There is some meaty clue we need to unearth with all that.
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Dec 11, 2015 05:00
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Theglavwen posted:I guess you could say that the information we have, that El is real and the Melachim try not to interfere comes about by virtue of our Nephilim nature, and so it would be 'interfering' to give them information they wouldn't have found out on their own. Sort of an 'if the Melachim wanted them to know, they would have told them' sort of deal. Even so, I don't think it's much beyond what they can see for themselves: they've seen the El pyre, El doesn't try to hide from people, and nobody, as far as we know, is damning Labaras or the Church for confirming that El exists. Our men believe us not because of our 'divine' heritage, but because they trust us, and because they've seen us involved in direct intervention. We're only confirming what they already know, that we've seen some poo poo, and if El or the Melachim didn't want them knowing that, or knowing that El is real, well they probably shouldn't be enacting miracles right in front of them. The Melachim want people coming to their own conclusions: well the conclusions they have reached is that they're pretty sure they're missing some pieces, they want to find out what they are, and that Enkidel is a tool they can use to make sense of things. They've come to all this by themselves, they want to know the truth of issues that are being shoved in their faces, and if that truth is something that will help them come to their own opinions, and won't break any big metaphysical rules, then it seems like they deserve the fruit of their enquiries, rather than being foisted off. The problem, to me, is that naming the Creator as El is giving more knowledge than we actually have. Same goes for claiming any knowledge as to the intentions or desires of the various beings we've met (especially while labeling them as Melachim). We've met powerful beings that can alter their physical form, mask their scent, hide their minds from our scrutiny, create matter and life from nothing... and that's merely Ishamal and Bareen and not any other "divine" figure. poo poo, Enkidel resurrected himself from practically nothing after surviving a nuclear blast! Worst of all, using the name "El" suggests that the cult of Baitel may in fact have more knowledge than our meager years have allowed us to gather. Perhaps, after another 58 years, we too will finally understand exactly why certain people deserve to be enslaved and why El wants women treated as property? After all, Tudiya's powerful and performed great feats just like Enkidel has, but he also has many more years of life and experience under his belt yet is just fine with slavery, women as property, and segregating refugees from the general population in order to keep the bloodline "pure". poo poo, just look at my post history for this thread if you want to see how bad preconceived notions coupled with vague new information can be.
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Dec 11, 2015 05:03
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I'm throwing in with plan Basscop.
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Dec 11, 2015 05:12
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I'm throwing my speech/hat into the ring. My speech aims at being short, honest, and not telling people what to believe or do. Gaze steadily at each of our questioners and then break into a grin. "I have been asking questions like these of Ishamal all my life, to little avail." Look toward Mt. Har. "I have no special knowledge of El, but yes, I believe he is real. He accepts our offerings and favors our endeavors." Frown and look down, then back up at our friends. "Consider my position. I do not speak for the Melachim. If I say one way or the other I will be deciding for you, when it is you who must decide for yourselves." Pause and then go on. "As for he who we found deep beneath the earth, his name is Amok. He was the great king of an ancient city, long lost to tragedy. He had hoped..." Trail off, sigh, and then resume. "Amok hoped he could sleep until the world was a better place. When he awoke he saw in my mind that demons still stalk the earth, and I believe he flew to attack the mountains of Fare in his fury and disappointment."
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Dec 11, 2015 05:15
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A Terrible Person posted:The problem, to me, is that naming the Creator as El is giving more knowledge than we actually have. 1. A while ago, in expressing my beliefs, I referred to He-Who-Is-Eternal, to The Creator, using all and only the phrases the (presumed) melachim we had met used. I don't recall precisely how it happened, if it was in response to me or another goon, but I think Diog just quoted someone's description of The Creator, He-Who-Is-Eternal as this great, awesome, unknowable thing, and replied "You mean El?" Because, apart from the works of men (the cult of Baitel, the melachim worshiper heresy, stories of Labaras), all we had been talking about was the core concept of what men of Ur call El. 2. We spoke with Amok in something he called True Speech, and in that language, the word "god" is El. It is not the name of a god, but simply the word "God". That, to me, seems a reasonable thing to call The Creator, He-Who-Is-Eternal. (I still think the Kadmonim idea that their trickster-god, Ea, fooled the men of Ur into worshipping "El" has some merit to it. Also, I take our space-vision just now to be minor vindication of my crazy "The melachim come from space" idea.)
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Dec 11, 2015 05:23
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Vavrek posted:(I still think the Kadmonim idea that their trickster-god, Ea, fooled the men of Ur into worshipping "El" has some merit to it. Also, I take our space-vision just now to be minor vindication of my crazy "The melachim come from space" idea.) Tangent, my theory about the "stars" we saw is that they're smaller distant presences, either minor melachim and demons or objects of power, etc.
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Dec 11, 2015 05:36
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Vavrek posted:2. We spoke with Amok in something he called True Speech, and in that language, the word "god" is El. It is not the name of a god, but simply the word "God". That, to me, seems a reasonable thing to call The Creator, He-Who-Is-Eternal. El is one of many words that mean God, you mean. The whole situation was a strained "Who's on first?" joke. Amok asked who we worshiped and we answered using one of many words which (long ago) meant god. He then asked which god, to which we responded "god". After a bit of back-and-forth, he finally realized that the god we worshiped was using a generic word for "god" as its name. To Enkidel, El is the name for the one true Creator. To Amok, el is just a synonym. TheCog posted:Tangent, my theory about the "stars" we saw is that they're smaller distant presences, either minor melachim and demons or objects of power, etc. I found it interesting that the nearest *edit* Here's the description of something dangerous to Enki on a spiritual level. Make of it what you will: Diogines posted:You see... distant stars distort as things you cannot see and do not truly perceive move in front of the distant stars, obfuscating their light. A Terrible Person fucked around with this message at 05:52 on Dec 11, 2015 |
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Dec 11, 2015 05:38
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A Terrible Person posted:El is one of many words that mean God, you mean. TheCog posted:Tangent, my theory about the "stars" we saw is that they're smaller distant presences, either minor melachim and demons or objects of power, etc.
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Dec 11, 2015 05:53
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Vavrek posted:Naming The Creator as El is ... kind of tricky, kind of shady, but I have two reasons for being mostly comfortable with it: Hah. That may have been me. I was right there with you - refused to refer to The Creator as El and vice-versa, was convinced Ish and the Melachim wouldn't refer to El by name directly because they knew he wasn't the actual Creator - then I think we had a Q&A with Ishamal at one point where I said "Does the Creator _____ ?" and Ishamal's response was, basically, "...who?" As you state pretty succinctly - even if El isn't the Creator, he essentially is "The Creator" given the current role he plays and the description of such a being and what that entails. Even if he didnt create anything (and has fooled people into thinking he has a la the Kadmonim interpretation), he's filling that role now.
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Dec 11, 2015 05:58
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change my vote to the new TheCog
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Dec 11, 2015 06:02
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Althair posted:I'm throwing my speech/hat into the ring. My speech aims at being short, honest, and not telling people what to believe or do. Honest and not at all condescending.
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Dec 11, 2015 06:04
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Task Manager posted:Hah. That may have been me. I was right there with you - refused to refer to The Creator as El and vice-versa, was convinced Ish and the Melachim wouldn't refer to El by name directly because they knew he wasn't the actual Creator - then I think we had a Q&A with Ishamal at one point where I said "Does the Creator _____ ?" and Ishamal's response was, basically, "...who?" Any idea around when that happened? All I recall involving Ish and the Creator was asking him whether he believed in El, him pausing temporarily, and then a tepid "Yes, I believe in... El." Considering Ish presumably speaks the Old Tongue, his answer is pretty interesting in that situation. I'd love to see what else he's let slip on the topic, though.
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Dec 11, 2015 06:06
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2. Plan Althair, whatever letter that is by now.
Lord Zedd-Repulsa fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Dec 11, 2015 |
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Dec 11, 2015 06:14
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Smythos' sword in the apocalypse dream he sent us said something about El on it. Also, I wonder if there's some sort of Hawking radiation equivalent with the whole demons = black holes thing.
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Dec 11, 2015 06:15
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A Terrible Person posted:Any idea around when that happened? Sure - check the quoted post below. He balks at me using Creator, but once El is named perks right up. Diogines posted:Ishamal says "Who?" He also answered a Fox Terrier question soon after by directly saying El healed people. Task Manager fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Dec 11, 2015 |
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Dec 11, 2015 06:16
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| # ? Apr 27, 2024 19:30 |
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It happened because I remember it as well. Also it was always weird because Melachim did talk about El, they just stopped (Smythos specifically). They also directly had us do poo poo we vowed to El to do. Functionally it didn't matter.
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Dec 11, 2015 06:18
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