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Väinämöinen was a child rapist. Therefore, all Finns are.
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Jan 7, 2016 00:14
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Rexroom posted:However the whole "immigration critical" circle heavily revolved around him and his blog, so it can pretty safely be said that he was one of the main ideologues of that movement. I also think that we see the actual problem pretty much the same way, as in "currently it is very difficult to have any reasonable public discussion about immigration", and that racist extremists are among those who should be blamed for it. What we likely see differently is how this situation came to be. I just find it completely implausible that if we ("the public discourse in Finland") had had someone half-reasonable arguing and exploring the option "our system can't cope with x-amount of y-kind of immigration", a position which you earlier said that is within the limits of reasonable, Halla-aho could have hogged the limelight like he managed to do. Now we have to live with the situation as it is. What I meant with my earlier, not-so-serious post is that a whole bunch of well-meaning people unintentionally given Mestari an empty stage for him to take over. I emphasize that I am not equating them, but I do hold every op-ed writer who has ever said "mutta olihan Dzeims Finlaysonkin mamu" partly responsible about the record low level of discussion. Recycling absolutely inane talking points, such as making comparisons between a 19th century machinist and a 21th century Iraqi refugee, is emblematic how absolutely unwilling "the reasonable people" have been to have a reasonable discussion. It is convenient and reassuring to say that "those people" (Halla-aho and his ilk) are the only ones to blame, but I don't think it's true. If there are no reasonable voices to be found, the crackpots will steal the show. It's not entirely the crackpots' fault, and yes, I certainly do hold reasonable people to a higher standard. A much higher standard really. The existence of rabid racists on the internet isn't an excuse that the reasonable people should use to withhold from having a reasonable discussion among themselves. That's just a really bad excuse. I was involved in a discussion about climate change a few months ago. A person there expressed her worry about 10% of polled Finns being denialists, and I had to say that I found it really odd how much that bothered her. How does it matter what the 10% think? There will never be a moment where all people will hold the factually correct or politically correct view about anything. Meanwhile the 90% are free to do whatever they want completely regardless of the opposing minority. Nenonen posted:Väinämöinen was a child rapist. Therefore, all Finns are. Did she wear a short skirt? Did she say "no" clearly enough? Did she turn into a fish to try to avoid the situation?
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Jan 7, 2016 00:59
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Nenonen posted:Väinämöinen was a child rapist. Therefore, all Finns are. Also a powerful shaman, just like Hallo-Aho. One is called the Steady Old and the other Master. Anyone think of more similarities?
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Jan 7, 2016 01:08
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doverhog posted:Also a powerful shaman, just like Hallo-Aho. One is called the Steady Old and the other Master. Anyone think of more similarities? I don't think Halla-aho is a child rapist, but I've heard from a very reliable source that he is a junkie and has a fondness for male prostitutes.
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Jan 7, 2016 01:48
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SnowblindFatal posted:It's a bit like how people think that what the human race is doing is somehow "bad" for the planet, when we are just as much part of Earth's nature as any other species. There are similar thought patterns in immigration discussion too, imo. Everyone is equal, before God or the Universe or whatever you want to believe in. I can absolutely agree with that. It's very hard to apply that broad notion to everyday socio-political interactions between disparate cultures. Rexroom posted:Let me give you an example: If you are against mass immigration on the level of "I think we should limit immigration because our system can't cope with it", then that's fine. Perfectly debatable. But, if it's more like "I think we should limit immigration because all muslims rape and leech the welfare state dry", then there is nothing to debate besides your rampant paranoia. Bonus minus points if you think it's because of green-leftie suvakkis corrupting agenda and consider MV-lehti as a trustworthy news source. First, most people will not fall under the latter category. People are afraid of societal change and want to live in a safe, comfortable and *predictable* environment. There's plenty of research done which suggests that people are the most happy and content in a homogeneous environment. In other words, people want to live among their own kind. If you think that is exclusive to Western civilizations then it most certainly is not. That's why immigrants from any part of the world tend to live among people of similar ethnic or religious background. Now, imagine 2/3 of people from a random country have the opinion that not a single Muslim (or Chinese person, or someone with red hair) should be allowed to settle in their homeland because they are a dirty thief and probably also a rapist. That is a stupid generlization and a pretty nasty prejudice, I agree, but the mood and views of the people are pretty clear. Don't you think that the citizens of the said country don't have the right to dictate who they let into their country, and under what terms? Or should the minority dictate official policy because it is the "correct opinion"? Please note I'm not speaking about a specific country, I'm merely conjecturing.
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Jan 7, 2016 02:12
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vuohi posted:This bald, bloodless, part time Church Slavic teacher person you speak of must be a really powerful shaman, if he can by himself decide the fate of a societal debate in the whole country and no-one could have done anything about it. This short mixed-blood failed painter corporal with one testicle must be a really powerful shaman...
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Jan 7, 2016 07:44
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Ligur posted:You just don't give a poo poo Well you got me there. I've said over and over again that I'm utterly bored to "discussion" that goes in circles and plays the same beats all the time. Finally you found this out. Good for you! Could we please now discuss something else?
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Jan 7, 2016 09:34
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Rexroom posted:Case in point. Since I am apparently a suvakki, I am thus hypocritical. I'm still confused, what exactly makes me a suvakki? Hmm... melko väsyneitä olkiukkoja
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Jan 7, 2016 11:20
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http://www.hs.fi/kaupunki/a1452138124738 Hmm...
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Jan 7, 2016 12:58
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Jerry Cotton posted:This short mixed-blood failed painter corporal with one testicle must be a really powerful shaman... Good for us that his totem animal became angry at him in Stalingrad and he shot himself.
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Jan 7, 2016 13:19
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Hmm indeed. First the police say they thwarted a (suspected) repeat of the incident in Köln, and now KRP is saying there never was a probability of that happening. So, uh, the truth is in the middle? 
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Jan 7, 2016 14:18
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The new years stuff is no big deal anyway, like they say "joukossa tyhmyys tiivistyy". Boys will be boys.
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Jan 7, 2016 14:29
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Rexroom posted:It's not a problem. The problem is that Halla-aho poisoned the debate with generalizations, us vs them vocabulary and overarching narratives about Muslim hordes forcing Finnish women wearing sacks or something. Oh come on. I've been following the debate for more than a decade and I can very safely say this. The largest hurdle is that you guys ("suvakit" ja "kukkahatut") reduce and equate: "I think we should limit immigration because our system can't cope with it" to this: "I think we should limit immigration because all muslims rape and leech the welfare state dry". Halla-aho never said that, but you will claim he, or me, or whoever wants to limit immigration said it anyway. Especially if we committed the politically incorrect deed of pointing out that some immigrant groups really are rather pronounced in statistics. Then you summon Fazer and Finlayson and karjalan evakot and also Finns went to USA to dig gold four generations ago, it's exactly the same as Iraqi guys coming here with fake ID's and on the taxpayers expense so suck it up. If molesting women or crime do not enter the discussion, at least our motives are suspect anyway, because... "Hmmm... this person wants to limit immigration, and immigrants are foreigners and often brown... racists don't like brown people, right? So perhaps this person wants to limit immigration just because he doesn't like brown people, and who else didn't like brown people? Hitler and the nazis, that's who, and what did they do to brown people? Put them in the oven. Ergo, this person who wants to limit immgiration is a racist who wants to put brown people into the oven". ... so we don't need to talk about actual immigration policies, but instead the motives of the people who are talking about it. Or perhaps try to dissect their paragraphs, trying to snif something that might offend someone, so we can talk about what is the correct way to talk about immigration. Just as long as we don't talk about actual policy. Tollasten pellejen kanssa Hallikset sun muut sitten joutuu "keskustelemaan" and then Rexroom comes out from his komero and claims it was Halla-aho and his pals who poisoned the discussion. Give me a loving break. edit: vuohi posted:What I meant with my earlier, not-so-serious post is that a whole bunch of well-meaning people unintentionally given Mestari an empty stage for him to take over. I emphasize that I am not equating them, but I do hold every op-ed writer who has ever said "mutta olihan Dzeims Finlaysonkin mamu" partly responsible about the record low level of discussion. Recycling absolutely inane talking points, such as making comparisons between a 19th century machinist and a 21th century Iraqi refugee, is emblematic how absolutely unwilling "the reasonable people" have been to have a reasonable discussion. It is convenient and reassuring to say that "those people" (Halla-aho and his ilk) are the only ones to blame, but I don't think it's true. No just näin. Ligur fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 14:43
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OhYeah posted:Everyone is equal, before God or the Universe or whatever you want to believe in. I can absolutely agree with that. It's very hard to apply that broad notion to everyday socio-political interactions between disparate cultures. I didn't actually mean my comment as support for cultural relativism which I find is bullshit the moment a culture has an avoidable negative impact on anything. I wanted to make a comparison with people who think that there is something inherently wrong with exploiting natural resources and to people who think that there is something inherently wrong with restricting immigration. Both can be seen as tools with their up and downsides. Even if deep down I am a hardcore "nothing really matters" hippie, I don't let that get in the way of the happiness of myself and my fellow people. I guess the big question in practical politics is as to who to consider "fellow people", but quite frankly I'm happy I don't have to make the call.
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Jan 7, 2016 15:34
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Anyone who thinks Finland doesn't have enough native pedocults already and wants more musselmen should read The God Delusion.
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Jan 7, 2016 15:44
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It's pretty ahistavaa että Ligur changes from English to suomen kieleen koko time ja sitten oottaa että se tekis any kind of järkeä. Ehkä it tekee textistä luettable lontoonkieliselle readerille
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Jan 7, 2016 18:42
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HUMAN FISH posted:The new years stuff is no big deal anyway, like they say "joukossa tyhmyys tiivistyy". Boys will be boys.  SnowblindFatal posted:I didn't actually mean my comment as support for cultural relativism which I find is bullshit the moment a culture has an avoidable negative impact on anything. I wanted to make a comparison with people who think that there is something inherently wrong with exploiting natural resources and to people who think that there is something inherently wrong with restricting immigration. Both can be seen as tools with their up and downsides. How very realpolitik of you. Refreshing, I quite enjoy the sensation.
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Jan 7, 2016 20:48
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OhYeah posted:How very realpolitik of you. Thanks regardless of the irony levels. 
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Jan 7, 2016 21:50
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Darkest Auer posted:Anyone who thinks Finland doesn't have enough native pedocults already and wants more musselmen should read The God Delusion. Didn't realise that Finland also had it's own version of Westminister.
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Jan 7, 2016 21:51
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Minorkos posted:It's pretty ahistavaa että Ligur changes from English to suomen kieleen koko time ja sitten oottaa että se tekis any kind of järkeä. he's bobby aro and i love him.
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Jan 7, 2016 21:57
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These Muslim hordes are more devious than I could even imagine: They come here, and in an effort to conceal their true agenda - that is, turning Finland into the northernmost caliphate of the Muslim empire - they will go so far as to convert themselves to Christianity!
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Jan 7, 2016 22:14
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Hitlernazi stuff, I was walking home and actually saw for the first time ever a random guy shouting to another guy, who looked like an Iraqi, that he should ge the gently caress out of here and that he is an awful monster or something to that effect. I dragged away the shouting guy rather violently by his collar. We're going to see more of this, I'm afraid.
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Jan 7, 2016 22:41
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Rexroom posted:These Muslim hordes are more devious than I could even imagine: They come here, and in an effort to conceal their true agenda - that is, turning Finland into the northernmost caliphate of the Muslim empire - they will go so far as to convert themselves to Christianity! To be honest the timing seems a bit weird when these people don't even know if they can stay in the country. Kinda big risk they're taking if this doesn't affect getting refugee status at all. Ligur posted:We're going to see more of this, I'm afraid. Golden Gate Bride fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 22:53
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Mulli posted:aaww, you big softy. I knew you only had the best interests of these muslim dudes in mind when you wanted them to stay away from Finland. I mean, the violence is inevitable, we cant just cant help ourselves Snigger. Yeah get all down to that, feels good, right?
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Jan 7, 2016 23:05
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Ligur posted:Snigger. Yeah get all down to that, feels good, right? What? Huh? I'm being serious Edit: did you just call me a snigger? Mods? Golden Gate Bride fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Jan 7, 2016 |
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Jan 7, 2016 23:07
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MOOOOOM ligur hit me 
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Jan 8, 2016 00:04
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Rexroom posted:These Muslim hordes are more devious than I could even imagine: They come here, and in an effort to conceal their true agenda - that is, turning Finland into the northernmost caliphate of the Muslim empire - they will go so far as to convert themselves to Christianity! Tää on kuin vaihtais puoluekirjaa SKP:stä SKDL:ään
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Jan 8, 2016 00:16
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Mulli posted:To be honest the timing seems a bit weird when these people don't even know if they can stay in the country. Kinda big risk they're taking if this doesn't affect getting refugee status at all. It doesn't and it is dangerous to them, to the point of not wanting their names published so that news of their conversion wouldn't reach Iraq or whatever they're from. Yay. 
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Jan 8, 2016 01:09
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These guys are going out of their way to make themelves feel welcome.
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Jan 8, 2016 07:22
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Rexroom posted:These Muslim hordes are more devious than I could even imagine: They come here, and in an effort to conceal their true agenda - that is, turning Finland into the northernmost caliphate of the Muslim empire - they will go so far as to convert themselves to Christianity! Heh, looks like someone hasn't heard of taqiyya 
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Jan 8, 2016 08:42
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Ligur posted:These guys are going out of their way to make themelves feel welcome. Lol, they use Daily Heil as a source e: Also Bild Herman Merman fucked around with this message at 08:51 on Jan 8, 2016 |
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Jan 8, 2016 08:48
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Herman Merman posted:Lol, they use Daily Heil as a source Yeah... it's all made up! e: and BBC and CNN, but anyway it's all made up Ligur fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Jan 8, 2016 |
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Jan 8, 2016 08:52
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Ligur posted:Yeah... it's all made up! One of the really annoying things about this is the current culture of "political correctness" around the police and some media outlets (e.g. Yle in particular in Finland). The fact that the police said after NY that there were no problems until enough people came out and said "well... actually" Meanwhile some people continue to go "oh you're citing Daily HEIL again  " like somehow this story has been blown way out of proportion instead of first having been covered up because it doesn't fit the "little angels fleeing war" narrative
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Jan 8, 2016 09:33
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Ligur posted:These guys are going out of their way to make themelves feel welcome. I didn't click the link, but I'm glad there's some good news for a change.
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Jan 8, 2016 10:18
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LOL näemmä viime yönä EuroPol-säikeessä argumentoitiin ihan tosissaan että kansallismielisyys on rasismia. Meidän säie vuotaa 
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Jan 8, 2016 10:18
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Rappaport posted:LOL näemmä viime yönä EuroPol-säikeessä argumentoitiin ihan tosissaan että kansallismielisyys on rasismia. Meidän säie vuotaa Nationalism can be racist if society judges national identity according to race. It's a political tool, nothing more. Not that I blame them: Europe had some very bad experiences of it in the past centuries or so.
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Jan 8, 2016 10:37
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Rexroom posted:Nationalism can be racist if society judges national identity according to race. It's a political tool, nothing more. Not that I blame them: Europe had some very bad experiences of it in the past centuries or so. It's just that nobody apart from you really gives a poo poo about "race".
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Jan 8, 2016 10:55
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Ligur posted:Yeah... it's all made up! Not all of it I'm sure! But perhaps you should stop reading and quoting poo poo-tier news sources like Iltalehti, Ilta-Sanomat and Daily Mail? I mean, there are perfectly good and informative articles about the Cologne assaults, only without the inflammatory language, hearsay and outright lies. They're not hard to find. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/05/germany-crisis-cologne-new-years-eve-sex-attacks http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/cologne-shocked-by-sexual-assaults-on-new-years-eve-a-1070583.html
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Jan 8, 2016 12:45
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Herman Merman posted:Not all of it I'm sure! But perhaps you should stop reading and quoting poo poo-tier news sources like Iltalehti, Ilta-Sanomat and Daily Mail? I don't get it. Herman is going like "HAH, I JUST PROVED SOMETHING!!1" but those sources he linked are basically saying the same thing every other source like Ilta-whatever and Daily Mail did. What is this guy trying to explain away or what was his point?
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Jan 8, 2016 13:16
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Rexroom posted:Nationalism can be racist if society judges national identity according to race. It's a political tool, nothing more. Not that I blame them: Europe had some very bad experiences of it in the past centuries or so. No joo, voihan leipäpalaankin tukehtua, mutten vetäisi tästä suurempia johtopäätelmiä syömisen järkevyydestä.
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Jan 8, 2016 13:17
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