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Amoeba102 posted:You're missing his point. Kashuno is saying that Scumpen spent a lot of time talking about claiming, and that' the sum total of his contribution so far. In the other game, he only brought it up because other people did first. And he specifically talked about it in ways that would prevent it happening. AKA, he was trying to prevent it for all of D1 and D2. I get wanting to bring in meta, but this doesn't even fit. I think this is Kashuno doubling down on his bad vote and bad opinion and grasping at any straws to make it work.
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Mar 7, 2016 22:21
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no its because i want to see lumpen's face when he realizes his supposedly perfectly balanced game can be broken open
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Mar 7, 2016 22:22
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lol ##vote KB
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Mar 7, 2016 22:22
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I'm not really seeing how puzzling to improve odds in a setup that allows it is counter to playing actual mafia.
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Mar 7, 2016 22:23
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Kashuno posted:do you guys want to solve this as a puzzle game because you hate mafia? My favorite parts of mafia are the puzzle solving aspects and the power role interactions, at least when it comes to playing on forums. In real life I'd probably be more open to straight vanilla mafia. GulagDolls posted:no its because i want to see lumpen's face when he realizes his supposedly perfectly balanced game can be broken open Also, this, would be really funny.
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Mar 7, 2016 22:23
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It probably would be balanced if we didn't know in advance tbh
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Mar 7, 2016 22:23
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Tricky posted:I'm not really seeing how puzzling to improve odds in a setup that allows it is counter to playing actual mafia. because it's just creating useless content not worth analysis.
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Mar 7, 2016 22:24
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Kashuno posted:lol ##vote KB This vote is much better since I'm a claimed backup and that is probably where the bad people will hide. Unless we don't full claim, then they'll just hide by not claiming.
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Mar 7, 2016 22:24
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if this were really an xcom game all night actions would have a 70% chance of failure
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Mar 7, 2016 22:25
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please everyone. this is our best chance at sending lumpen back to his home in the negaverse
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Mar 7, 2016 22:26
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King Burgundy posted:This vote is much better since I'm a claimed backup and that is probably where the bad people will hide. Which does bring up another question: what would a potential gameplan be in a mixed scenario where some will claim, some won't?
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Mar 7, 2016 22:27
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this setup is one of his horcruxes
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Mar 7, 2016 22:27
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Tricky posted:I'm not really seeing how puzzling to improve odds in a setup that allows it is counter to playing actual mafia. to expand on it, it's not the case that being yea/nay on a mass claim is going to produce any meaningful read on a player. I am town and nay on a massclaim, and I'm sure there are town that are yea on a massclaim. It's distraction from actual mafia playing, and it doesn't give us useful information to work with. A "neutral" case as presented earlier is actually pro scum, because it's a waste of time which is not on the side of town.
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Mar 7, 2016 22:27
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##vote kahuna
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Mar 7, 2016 22:29
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Kashuno posted:to expand on it, it's not the case that being yea/nay on a mass claim is going to produce any meaningful read on a player. I am town and nay on a massclaim, and I'm sure there are town that are yea on a massclaim. It's distraction from actual mafia playing, and it doesn't give us useful information to work with. A "neutral" case as presented earlier is actually pro scum, because it's a waste of time which is not on the side of town. You know what wouldn't be a distraction? If we all claimed so we could get on with the mafia part.  Seriously, at this point the die is cast, we have 3 of 5 power roles outted and potentially 5 claimed backups if they are all telling the truth. The scum at this point already know almost all they need to. We as town and I guess the sk are the only ones still a bit in the dark. Why would we hold back at this point?
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Mar 7, 2016 22:30
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Kash, sorry you rolled dunce m8
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Mar 7, 2016 22:31
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GulagDolls posted:that's the sum of almost every single person's contributions so far. it doesn't matter. for the record, lumpen talked less about claiming last game. That is true - the game skipped joke phase and went straight to claim theory.
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Mar 7, 2016 22:32
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Jon Irenicus posted:Which does bring up another question: what would a potential gameplan be in a mixed scenario where some will claim, some won't? all non claim-havers will be put to the sword King Burgundy posted:
this too. you can either have everything be a secret, or have it all be out in the open. scum certainly have enough info already so there's no reason to not get claimy wit it
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Mar 7, 2016 22:32
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Jon Irenicus posted:Which does bring up another question: what would a potential gameplan be in a mixed scenario where some will claim, some won't? I am more prone to want to vote for the non claiming in that scenario, since for example at this point, all of the claims could be the truth. 5 of 6 claimed backups. 3 of 5 claimed power roles. But I'm guessing some of the folks who haven't posted yet will still be willing to claim and we'll get above 6 on the claimed backups at least. At which point I'd also vote there.
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Mar 7, 2016 22:32
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King Burgundy posted:In the other game, he only brought it up because other people did first. And he specifically talked about it in ways that would prevent it happening. AKA, he was trying to prevent it for all of D1 and D2. Chalk it up to me not following the last game then.
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Mar 7, 2016 22:33
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Jon Irenicus posted:I wanted to ask a few question or two to Lumpen (or anything staunchly pro-claim). However, in the last Nailbiter it was suggested that a D1 massclaim breaks the game (in favor of Town) and I disagree. It was sort of agreed by several people that we'd test it out and see in the next Nailbiter. If anything, a massclaim D1 in this setup would make a Scum win impossible. Kashuno acting like it is Town suicide is very suspicious. KK (and now Amoeba) getting all huffy and acting like it's an insult to Mafia is also pretty suspicious. This setup gives Scum little wiggle room for fakeclaims. In both previous Nailbiters, the Scum seemed to be on the verge of certain victory but in the end got exposed and defeated largely by botching their navigation of the fakeclaim space. There are positives and negatives to claiming at any time, including a D1 massclaim. I contend that I succeeded at my goal of designing this setup to deliver an exciting and close contest regardless. A massclaim D1 is a valid and not inherently unbalanced scenario, I believe. Several of us have been hoping to test that hypothesis. One thing I will say though, in this setup, once the ball is rolling on softclaims, I agree with King Burgundy that it is in Town's best interest to make the most of it by going all in. Leaving additional ambiguity and uncertainty in the gamespace is something Scum can exploit. They benefit most by having only one or two claims at a time because they have a single nightkill. Town Powers also benefit from the softclaimspace being clearly delineated as well, once it starts getting staked out. Fullclaiming vs softclaiming provides little or no additional benefit to Town, but huge benefit to Scum and SK. The reasons should be obvious. Fullclaiming happens later when there's night action info. Actually fullclaiming probably still doesn't break the game because the role interactions have so much headfaking and WIFOM possibilities. I think if we are going to trg a D1 massclaim, Town gets most of the benefit by softclaiming first though. If the Scum all claim Power, then yeah fullclaims happen.
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Mar 7, 2016 22:33
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Kashuno posted:to expand on it, it's not the case that being yea/nay on a mass claim is going to produce any meaningful read on a player. I am town and nay on a massclaim, and I'm sure there are town that are yea on a massclaim. It's distraction from actual mafia playing, and it doesn't give us useful information to work with. A "neutral" case as presented earlier is actually pro scum, because it's a waste of time which is not on the side of town. Ok, makes sense. I appreciate the elaboration, honestly trying muddle through and figure it out as I go.
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Mar 7, 2016 22:33
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##vote Amoeba102 hosed up my vote before.
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Mar 7, 2016 22:34
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King Burgundy posted:I am more prone to want to vote for the non claiming in that scenario, since for example at this point, all of the claims could be the truth. 5 of 6 claimed backups. 3 of 5 claimed power roles. But I'm guessing some of the folks who haven't posted yet will still be willing to claim and we'll get above 6 on the claimed backups at least. At which point I'd also vote there. It does sound fairly logical to me, especially in an open scenario. Which brings me to: I am one of those remaining Power roles, I apologize for my hesitance.
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Mar 7, 2016 22:36
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SOME PEOPLE CALL ME MAURICE
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Mar 7, 2016 22:36
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Kashuno posted:to expand on it, it's not the case that being yea/nay on a mass claim is going to produce any meaningful read on a player. I am town and nay on a massclaim, and I'm sure there are town that are yea on a massclaim. It's distraction from actual mafia playing, and it doesn't give us useful information to work with. A "neutral" case as presented earlier is actually pro scum, because it's a waste of time which is not on the side of town. There was no yea/nay voting to time the massclaim this time, your point is moot, refuting a point nobody was making.
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Mar 7, 2016 22:40
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Okay, if it stops this stupid conversation about claim vs don't claim, I've changed my mind and will claim. I'm backup.
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Mar 7, 2016 22:40
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Lumpen posted:(and now Amoeba) getting all huffy and acting like it's an insult to Mafia is also pretty suspicious. More like an insult to the mod. Much like lurking or shitposting is an insult to the mod putting effort into making the game, trying to break it in some way is the same thing. It's mostly the intent which is the insult. But that's kind of your thing, isn't it.
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Mar 7, 2016 22:40
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kash take the money and run
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Mar 7, 2016 22:41
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Amoeba102 posted:But that's kind of your thing, isn't it. 
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Mar 7, 2016 22:42
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gently caress you idiots i'm a loving backup so go ahead and loving lynch me.
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Mar 7, 2016 22:42
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Amoeba102 posted:More like an insult to the mod. Much like lurking or shitposting is an insult to the mod putting effort into making the game, trying to break it in some way is the same thing. It's mostly the intent which is the insult. But that's kind of your thing, isn't it. If Friction had responded to me by saying "please don't, this is my first game and I don't want that to happen" or the like before the game started, I would have backed down. But he wished us the best if we wanted to go that way so I don't think he cares. Honestly, he's probably excited that his thread is getting this much activity.
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Mar 7, 2016 22:42
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Kashuno posted:gently caress you idiots i'm a loving backup so go ahead and loving lynch me. okay
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Mar 7, 2016 22:43
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backup scum probably
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Mar 7, 2016 22:43
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Amoeba102 posted:More like an insult to the mod. Much like lurking or shitposting is an insult to the mod putting effort into making the game, trying to break it in some way is the same thing. It's mostly the intent which is the insult. But that's kind of your thing, isn't it. And, what's even funnier about you saying this to Lumpen, is it's actually his setup. If anyone was going to take offense, I would think it would be him. 
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Mar 7, 2016 22:43
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K, I think that is at least 7 claimed backups, so there is at least one liar there. Still waiting for more to check in though, several haven't made it to the thread since game start.
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Mar 7, 2016 22:44
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Amoeba102 posted:More like an insult to the mod. Much like lurking or shitposting is an insult to the mod putting effort into making the game, trying to break it in some way is the same thing. It's mostly the intent which is the insult. But that's kind of your thing, isn't it. The mod said it was fine and I created the setup! I am not trying to insult myself by breaking my own setup, because it is not breakable, and so trying to break it is a compliment not an insult. Also this is all much better than a dumb jokephase and it is totally hot Mafia action and an exciting D1 with heavy posting velocity! The mod posted that he was having fun. I, for one, am already biting my nails!
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Mar 7, 2016 22:45
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Lumpen posted:The mod said it was fine and I created the setup! I am not trying to insult myself by breaking my own setup, because it is not breakable, and so trying to break it is a compliment not an insult. Yeah, this is a much more exciting D1 for me then Jokephase. Too exciting possibly. I need to get some work done.
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Mar 7, 2016 22:46
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King Burgundy posted:If Friction had responded to me by saying "please don't, this is my first game and I don't want that to happen" or the like before the game started, I would have backed down. But he wished us the best if we wanted to go that way so I don't think he cares. Honestly, he's probably excited that his thread is getting this much activity. Yeah that's fine by me. And I came here to get the game started but die quickly. King Burgundy posted:And, what's even funnier about you saying this to Lumpen, is it's actually his setup. If anyone was going to take offense, I would think it would be him. That's beside the point. Lumpen wants to test his setup I get that. If he wants to see if it's unbreakable, he should have games set up specifically for that purpose. Going into someone's game with the intent to break it is just disregarding the effort the mod puts in, regardless of whether they used a setup you made up or not.
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Mar 7, 2016 22:48
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I am glad that we skipped jokephase, the true hell of mafia.
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Mar 7, 2016 22:48
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