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A sense of stakes is desperately lacking in the latter half.
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Mar 28, 2016 08:51
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nickmeister posted:This is pretty interesting. I definitely got the feeling that the Punisher's ending wasn't completely flushed out. He does so much to show the audience that he's just a broken psycho who will eventually end up hurting someone innocent. But after he mercilessly executes the final boss, he's on the rooftop at the end sniping ninjas and winking at the camera. I mean, DD risked both of their lives to prevent him from killing people when he could. I was like, "uh, did we learn nothing?!" Also, I didn't understand why the "Blacksmith" tried to get Castle killed in the park. I think he might be right. Bernthal really went in to the Punisher thing 200% full-bore. That man threw himself into the role, and was really behind it in a way that's not super common; and he owned it on screen. I have no doubt they might have expanded his scenes greatly from a small arc to the main arc, esp. near the end where it felt like it left things answered and armed him up to straight up kick off a series. Pretty sure Marvel saw a good thing and geared towards it, and is probably just letting the critical "The Punisher was the best thing in the season" to work it's way in a bit more before announcing the show. Not that I'm complaining about that, I'm very glad and a whole season of just Elektra would have been a let down. Still an odd season for me; super uneven. Really good parts though.
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Mar 28, 2016 10:16
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lotus circle posted:Finished season 2. I don't even think MARVEL knows what Black Sky is, according to my reading/research.
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Mar 28, 2016 10:25
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computer parts posted:Just finished this up. I'm echoing other people when I say that the Punisher parts were the highlight of the season, and the Elektra/Ninja stuff kinda fell flat. I actually enjoyed it when it was Matt being the reluctant ally to Elektra because hey something worse is on the loose but after she leaves and almost gets killed by the french dude it just sort of drags on. FTFY, according to my reading.
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Mar 28, 2016 10:27
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Iseeyouseemeseeyou posted:My impression of this thread: "why wont the blonde bombshell date the obese goon I am not THAT fat, thank you very much!
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Mar 28, 2016 10:29
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The Black Sky thing isn't new, by the way. The boy that Stick killed last season was also a Black Sky.
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Mar 28, 2016 12:10
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enraged_camel posted:The Black Sky thing isn't new, by the way. The boy that Stick killed last season was also a Black Sky. No one ever explained why he was so dangerous and had to be put down back then either.
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Mar 28, 2016 12:38
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Which makes me think it was on purpose, rather than an accidental omission.
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Mar 28, 2016 12:55
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It feels to me that Matt's non-killing ethos is constantly being proven incorrect in front of him. Frank, Elektra, Stick, villains, and even Karen seem to kill all the bad guys that are too problematic to be kept around leaving him to take the high ground about not being a murderer while directly benefiting from the killings. Fisk is doing exactly what Frank said he would and has already gotten a ton of people killed. Did Matt REALLY think the New York prison system that allowed the Punisher, the second most high profile criminal it had, to literally just walk out with no one questioning how to be able to handle Nobu, the magical zombie leader of the Hand?? I think the problem is that comic books need these over the top monsters as villains and a justice system that lets them constantly walk free in order to keep making interesting stories which really doesn't gel with a more real world approach to capital punishment and extra judicial justice. Frank leaving the jail kinda gets into my issue with the tail end of the season feeling rushed. Frank escaping possibly with the help of Fisk is fine since he needed to get back into the field, but prison guards having the ability to just walk a guy out with a pat on the back seems like a huge security issue that needed to be addressed and shouldn't just be written off as "it's a tv show" specifically in one that is trying to make the argument of "leave the vigilantes out of the justice system." It's like they were running out of time and just gave it a quick scene to get the ball rolling again. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 13:13 on Mar 28, 2016 |
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Mar 28, 2016 13:02
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I have to say, I've never read one, but all the stuff from the Daredevil comics mentioned ITT sounds terrible. Deadshot killing all Matts girlfriends? Karen selling his secret identity for heroin? Endless Hand Ninjas? Really hope the show runners aren't too beholden to the stuff that happens in the comics.
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Mar 28, 2016 13:17
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Quite frankly I PERSONALLY (so I'm not saying that as a fact before people get angry) think super hero comic books are largely terrible and only become decent once a talented screen writer makes them work for TV or movies (and even they often fail). Comic books have fun ideas but a lot of what is in them is really dumb and poorly written. It takes packaging them into a TV season or a 110 minute movie that appeals to a larger audience to bring out the good. I usually grab a bunch of samples on Free Comic Book day and think after reading them if THAT is what is supposed to get me hooked I don't really need to go any further. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 13:28 on Mar 28, 2016 |
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Mar 28, 2016 13:23
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Radish posted:trying to make the argument of "leave the vigilantes out of the justice system". Well Daredevil had to hand the Punisher to a cop to make it work publicly even in show, which should tell you how much that's worth. I always wonder how that guy's partner felt when she came back from cuffing the Punisher and Daredevil was gone, only for her partner to say "Yea, I'm taking this collar. Daredevil said I should. We're bros".
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Mar 28, 2016 13:27
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Radish posted:Frank leaving the jail kinda gets into my issue with the tail end of the season feeling rushed. Frank escaping possibly with the help of Fisk is fine since he needed to get back into the field, but prison guards having the ability to just walk a guy out with a pat on the back seems like a huge security issue that needed to be addressed and shouldn't just be written off as "it's a tv show" specifically in one that is trying to make the argument of "leave the vigilantes out of the justice system." It's like they were running out of time and just gave it a quick scene to get the ball rolling again. Yeah I really would have preferred if they'd dedicated Frank's scenes in one episode to just making a jail break but yeah, they needed to move him on 
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Mar 28, 2016 13:29
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Radish posted:Quite frankly I PERSONALLY (so I'm not saying that as a fact before people get angry) think super hero comic books are largely terrible and only become decent once a talented screen writer makes them work for TV or movies (and even they often fail). Comic books have fun ideas but a lot of what is in them is really dumb and poorly written. It takes packaging them into a TV season or a 110 minute movie that appeals to a larger audience to bring out the good. I usually grab a bunch of samples on Free Comic Book day and think after reading them if THAT is what is supposed to get me hooked I don't really need to go any further. Now I wouldn't go quite that far, there are definitely good comics out there, like 2000AD. But yes most superhero poo poo is awful and can only be improved on by tv/movie adaptations.
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Mar 28, 2016 13:33
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marktheando posted:Now I wouldn't go quite that far, there are definitely good comics out there, like 2000AD. But yes most superhero poo poo is awful and can only be improved on by tv/movie adaptations. Yeah there's definitely good stuff, I'm enjoying Ms Marvel right now. I didn't mean to say they are ALL bad at all sorry if that came across just that it feels like a majority of it isn't great.
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Mar 28, 2016 13:38
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Yes, sturgeon's law applies to comic books and adaptations that can pick and choose from decades of stuff along with their own ideas probably have a higher hit rate than most stuff. This shouldn't be surprising. Sturgeon's law applies to everything after all.
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Mar 28, 2016 13:40
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marktheando posted:I have to say, I've never read one, but all the stuff from the Daredevil comics mentioned ITT sounds terrible. Deadshot killing all Matts girlfriends? Karen selling his secret identity for heroin? Endless Hand Ninjas? Miller pre-empted this season of Daredevil by saying that the Elektra in it was not the one he created, which is about the biggest endorsement you can get.
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Mar 28, 2016 13:42
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Radish posted:It feels to me that Matt's non-killing ethos is constantly being proven incorrect in front of him. Frank, Elektra, Stick, villains, and even Karen seem to kill all the bad guys that are too problematic to be kept around leaving him to take the high ground about not being a murderer while directly benefiting from the killings. Fisk is doing exactly what Frank said he would and has already gotten a ton of people killed. Did Matt REALLY think the New York prison system that allowed the Punisher, the second most high profile criminal it had, to literally just walk out with no one questioning how to be able to handle Nobu, the magical zombie leader of the Hand?? I think the problem is that comic books need these over the top monsters as villains and a justice system that lets them constantly walk free in order to keep making interesting stories which really doesn't gel with a more real world approach to capital punishment and extra judicial justice. It's not as unrealistic as you might think. Criminals walk out of Orleans Parish Jail all the drat time. Maybe that was their inspiration.
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Mar 28, 2016 13:51
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Sounds like Matt should have gone into the correctional system instead of law if he wanted to really make a difference.
Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 14:25 on Mar 28, 2016 |
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Mar 28, 2016 14:22
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Samizdata posted:
The Hand get their magic from making deals with various powerful demons, and one of their big plots is to summon them into the real world. That's probably what they need a Black Sky for, but in Shadowland they ended up corrupting Daredevil for a host.
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Mar 28, 2016 15:31
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marktheando posted:I have to say, I've never read one, but all the stuff from the Daredevil comics mentioned ITT sounds terrible. Deadshot killing all Matts girlfriends? Karen selling his secret identity for heroin? Endless Hand Ninjas? I mean that's Frank Miller and you gotta take the good with the bad with that guy. The bad being women are killed, killers, or prostitutes. Who also get killed.
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Mar 28, 2016 15:37
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Finished the season over the weekend and I really enjoyed it, far more than Jessica Jones, but it sounds like all my greivances with the season are pretty universal. The first half of the season is great, The Punisher is definitely the driving force and the conspiracy against him is engaging. But then they just seem to flip a switch and jump from Punisher VS the mob to Elektra VS the Hand and it totally looses steam. Then in the last two episodes it feels like they forgot that they had to wrap up the Punisher in some manner, and so we get this clumsy Blacksmith stuff. Good season but I really think not keeping The Punisher story as the main thread hurt it. Also Foggy still sucks, this guy playing him is the dirt worst actor I've seen in a long time and I actively watch pro wrestling.
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Mar 28, 2016 16:28
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Require More Fire posted:Good season but I really think not keeping The Punisher story as the main thread hurt it. Also Foggy still sucks, this guy playing him is the dirt worst actor I've seen in a long time and I actively watch pro wrestling. I dunno, I kinda like Foggy, and every time Matt is a complete dick to him, I genuinely feel bad for him.
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Mar 28, 2016 16:37
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I didn't have any problem with the acting either season but the characters and plots were where they started to lose me.
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Mar 28, 2016 16:40
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I really enjoyed Punisher S1 ft. Karen, Foggy & Daredevil, myself
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Mar 28, 2016 17:39
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I just finished S2. The jail was certainly the peak of the series. Karen felt really useless for most of the season, and The Hand stuff felt really... not that well explained and kind of stupid and pointless. Also, the ending of the Blacksmith storyline didn't really give a sense of closure. I am excited for next season though. The last few scenes were some nice setups.
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Mar 28, 2016 18:15
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I'm trying to wrap my mind around all the Karen criticisms. Sure she had a lot of scenes but, again, they were either character development or they over the plot forward in significant ways.
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Mar 28, 2016 18:38
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Arrgytehpirate posted:I just finished S2. The jail was certainly the peak of the series. Karen felt really useless for most of the season, and The Hand stuff felt really... not that well explained and kind of stupid and pointless. Also, the ending of the Blacksmith storyline didn't really give a sense of closure. I am excited for next season though. The last few scenes were some nice setups. Right now, I would rather just have a Punisher series.
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Mar 28, 2016 18:46
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I thought Karen was fine through the entire season, her worst moment was probably walking in on fully-clothed Matt, bedridden Elektra, and creepy old Stick and immediately thinking "orgy", or whatever.
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Mar 28, 2016 18:54
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Require More Fire posted:I thought Karen was fine through the entire season, her worst moment was probably walking in on fully-clothed Matt, bedridden Elektra, and creepy old Stick and immediately thinking "orgy", or whatever. Yeah, if she'd just been like 'And I went over to his apartment yesterday and there's an old man slicing an apple sitting on the couch and some woman in Matt's bed, dirty sheets balled up in the corner. I can't take the secrets anymore, he won't tell me or Foggy anything for some reason.' that would've been fine.
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Mar 28, 2016 18:58
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Require More Fire posted:I thought Karen was fine through the entire season, her worst moment was probably walking in on fully-clothed Matt, bedridden Elektra, and creepy old Stick and immediately thinking "orgy", or whatever. A blind guy can't even have a kinky three way in NYC without being judged anymore.
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Mar 28, 2016 19:06
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RareAcumen posted:Yeah, if she'd just been like 'And I went over to his apartment yesterday and there's an old man slicing an apple sitting on the couch and some woman in Matt's bed, dirty sheets balled up in the corner. I can't take the secrets anymore, he won't tell me or Foggy anything for some reason.' that would've been fine. Yeah, I'll admit, it kinda felt like that scene was written without Stick being around, but they couldn't figure out how to let her into the apartment, so along comes Stick.
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Mar 28, 2016 19:08
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RareAcumen posted:Yeah, if she'd just been like 'And I went over to his apartment yesterday and there's an old man slicing an apple sitting on the couch and some woman in Matt's bed, dirty sheets balled up in the corner. I can't take the secrets anymore, he won't tell me or Foggy anything for some reason.' that would've been fine. That's my issue with it. The situation was actually *even weirder* than the thought Matt likes banging out randos all weekend. Karen reacting as if that's what she saw is the least dramatically interesting choice.
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Mar 28, 2016 19:32
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Also, maybe I'm getting old and dull but I thought the gore was unnecessarily over the top this season. I know it's THE PUNISHER but some of the stuff was just...gruesome for the sake of being gruesome. I could live without hearing metal-on-bone as someone gets a sai through the orbital.
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Mar 28, 2016 19:36
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Require More Fire posted:Also, maybe I'm getting old and dull but I thought the gore was unnecessarily over the top this season. I know it's THE PUNISHER but some of the stuff was just...gruesome for the sake of being gruesome. I could live without hearing metal-on-bone as someone gets a sai through the orbital. To be completely honest, I would have been perfectly content with the season not having Electra at all and was sad that they showed the open grave at the end. Having a few MOTW padding episodes to introduce some new minor characters or villains would have been nice. Although I did like when they covered What happened with the Kingpin since last season
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Mar 28, 2016 19:39
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Matt getting totally clowned by Fist after trying to threaten him was the best scene of the season.
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Mar 28, 2016 19:46
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Daredevil's version of Fisk is top-notch in how they continue to balance weakness and strength. It really works so much better than the comic version where he's on 24/7 and emphasizes his moments of terrifying brutality a lot better.
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Mar 28, 2016 19:48
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Require More Fire posted:Finished the season over the weekend and I really enjoyed it, far more than Jessica Jones, but it sounds like all my greivances with the season are pretty universal. I don't think the Punisher story, as engaging as it was, had enough content to last an entire season. In fact, the main reason it was so engaging was because it was packed into four or five episodes. One thing that would have helped was if they introduced Elektra sooner, perhaps as early as episode two. That way, it would have felt less like "OK, we wrapped up Punisher, now onto the next plot point!" She could have visited Nelson & Murdock as a potential client, introduce herself to Karen as Matt's ex, have Matt turn her down and send her away, only to later sign her up as a "private client." That would have been more engaging, and would have fueled Karen's anger when she found Elektra at Matt's apartment.
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Mar 28, 2016 19:49
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RareAcumen posted:Yeah, if she'd just been like 'And I went over to his apartment yesterday and there's an old man slicing an apple sitting on the couch and some woman in Matt's bed, dirty sheets balled up in the corner. I can't take the secrets anymore, he won't tell me or Foggy anything for some reason.' that would've been fine. drat, I meant to say bloody instead of dirty.
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Mar 28, 2016 20:23
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Require More Fire posted:I thought Karen was fine through the entire season, her worst moment was probably walking in on fully-clothed Matt, bedridden Elektra, and creepy old Stick and immediately thinking "orgy", or whatever. I don't think it was about sex, but about Matt having this completely insane secret life that he refused to speak up about to the detriment of her and Fogey's lives and careers.
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Mar 28, 2016 20:32
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