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redbackground posted:Well, as imaginary Pa Kent establishes, you can't do good in the world without loving it up for someone else. That's not it. Let's put it the way Gandalf did: "Even the very wise cannot see all ends." And then some weird "do it for the love of a good woman" coda, I guess? I didn't really get what they were trying to do with the second part.
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Apr 5, 2016 18:11
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:As a genuine Superman fan, it's always baffled me by how many other fans say they love the character but basically treat everything he does in these movies with the baddest faith possible. "Not My Superman".  quote:No. Zod was responsible or all that death and destruction. Try watching the movie next time. He's not but all of Superman's damage is accidental.
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Apr 5, 2016 18:16
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:That's not it. Let's put it the way Gandalf did: "Even the very wise cannot see all ends." And then some weird "do it for the love of a good woman" coda, I guess? I didn't really get what they were trying to do with the second part. I think the second bit is meant to be a "love can give you faith" sort of thing. Like, Supes is constantly doubting that the world will believe in him, but the woman he loves is like "Superman is all some people have in this world." Lois is his bridge to humanity and the source of his faith that humanity will come around to the idea of Superman.
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Apr 5, 2016 18:58
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I would go with that but Batman's vision is explicitly that a Superman without Lois is a cruel bad guy. Of course, if you take that as a metaphor, a Superman without faith in people's goodness is a cruel bad guy. Ok, I guess that works. "Men are still good."
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Apr 5, 2016 19:21
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That line, after the repeated instance of "We're criminals. We're all criminals." is so drat good. It perfectly shows how far Batman had fallen, and how Superman saved him.
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Apr 5, 2016 19:24
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:That's not it. Let's put it the way Gandalf did: "Even the very wise cannot see all ends." And then some weird "do it for the love of a good woman" coda, I guess? I didn't really get what they were trying to do with the second part. The thing that scares people is that Papa Kent's ghost is making a very nuanced philisophical point about how to survive in a hostile universe. The first and most important point is about the inevitability of byproducts. Pa's comfort and affluence on the farm - his "hero's cake" - was earned at the expense of the people downstream. You can't eat without making GBS threads, and poo poo has to go somewhere. This is the same point as in Man Of Steel, where Metropolis (as in Fritz Lang's Metropolis) is shown to have been created through the exploitation of people in the third world, 'underneath'. The only way to prevent the next 9/11 is to take responsibility for your poo poo: stop the exploitative machine on the other side of the Earth. It's a reversal of the hippie slogan of 'acting local while thinking global.' Kent's message is to act global and think local. He realized that his first priority should have been the people downstream. The second (related) point Kent makes is about complacency. He saved the farm and ate a big cake, but the job wasn't done. This is the same point as in Man Of Steel when, after having defeated Zod and saved the Earth, Superman continues to issue ultimatums - smashing drones and whatnot. Superman does not stand for complacency, and any sort of status quo. The third point is about maintaining your sanity in the face of an endless struggle. Pa Kent lived on a comfortable farm but was haunted by the screams of the horses downstream. You can imagine the picture of a happy farmhouse and then the house starts dissolving into a nightmarish place, haunted by visions. This imagery is all over these films. How can you stay sane while being aware of the horror in the world? How can you keep going when the conflict is endless and overwhelming? How do you avoid sinking into the ocean of skulls? Kent's answer is love and hope - a repeat of the 'island' imagery from Man Of Steel. When Clark began seeing ghoulish skeletons everywhere, he used his mother's voice as an island. When a chunk of Metropolis was vaporized, he took solace in Lois' embrace. BVS takes it even further because Superman's love for Wally supersedes his love for both Lois and Martha. Finally, there's a crucial, implicit point: Pa Kent didn't cause the flood. He didn't cause the rain to fall, and blaming him for that would be insane. Nature itself is hostile, violent, murderous and he was doing his best to cope with that. We should forgive him for what happened to the horses. The Ghost Kent scene is simply Clark reaffirming his values from the previous film. He's remembering what he already knew all along. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Apr 5, 2016 |
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Apr 5, 2016 19:31
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The two times you see horses in the movie is very Tarsem Singh, too: very abstract and disorienting.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:00
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When do you see horses?
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Apr 5, 2016 20:06
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Sir Kodiak posted:When do you see horses? After Bruce Wayne runs headfirst into 9/11, it's a pretty surreal moment. There's a few others, but that one stuck out the most to me.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:08
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There's another outside the capital building when it explodes.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:09
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wyoming posted:After Bruce Wayne runs headfirst into 9/11, it's a pretty surreal moment. There's a cop on horseback later too, along with a load of them at the superfuneral. I think there's one at the Kansas funeral too.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:10
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Sir Kodiak posted:When do you see horses? The first is a white horse trotting around in the mist after Wayne Financial collapses, the second is after the Capitol bombing where a police horse rears to throw its rider.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:11
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Oh, yeah. Can't believe I forgot the one in the dust cloud. Thanks!
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Apr 5, 2016 20:12
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There's a lot of really good shots in this but the one I want to see the most again is the pearl necklace caught on the gun.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:15
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Might tie in to the whole Excalibur angle. A knight without a horse has nowhere to go, no divine purpose. Bruce sees one on space 9/11 which is when he begins to lose his way, and the Capitol bombing is when Clark has his greatest crisis of faith.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:15
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:There's a lot of really good shots in this but the one I want to see the most again is the pearl necklace caught on the gun. The best detail is in how Bruce is fixated on the violence of the recoil instead of the actual gunshot.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:18
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Sir Kodiak posted:Oh, yeah. Can't believe I forgot the one in the dust cloud. Thanks! Yeah, that whole Metropolis sequence ruled, but the horse was a great "poo poo is hosed" signifier.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:18
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MeatwadIsGod posted:Yeah, that whole Metropolis sequence ruled, but the horse was a great "poo poo is hosed" signifier. It reminded me of a very similar scene in Cloverfield. SuperMechagodzilla posted:The thing that scares people is that Papa Kent's ghost is making a very nuanced philisophical point about how to survive in a hostile universe. Good points, food for thought. Thanks SMG.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:29
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On that note, here's how to very badly misinterpret a scene (from BSS):Monaghan posted:I still find it hilarious that pa's kent's one act of heroism results in him inadvertently killing a ton of his neighbour's animals. It's consistent with the kent's going "gently caress heroism" I guess. Superstring posted:It makes perfect sense if Snyder really is an objectivist. Altruism is nothing but trouble and you need to look out for yourself. Thanks to memes, these people think Snyder's message is to run away with the cake and let both farms explode.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:37
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Serf posted:One detail I did like during the Justice League setup sequence is that Lex Luthor designed all their logos. Dude is doing all the branding heavy lifting for them. I thought it was kinda corny. Lex's level of omnipotence in this movie was staggering. He named them too, which means they will somehow decide to stick to the code name assigned to them by a psychopath.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:38
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Does he name them? We just see symbols. I think the files are named "Security_CAM_1" and things of that nature. Anyway Lex has always been the smartest guy in the room so I have no problem with him being a supergenius.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:42
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:On that note, here's how to very badly misinterpret a scene (from BSS):  at those quotes. How can you misinterpret a scene this badly?
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Apr 5, 2016 20:43
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Does he name them? We just see symbols. I think the files are named "Security_CAM_1" and things of that nature. I think they're actually named "Flash_Cam" and the like but I'm not that sure. SonicRulez posted:I thought it was kinda corny. Lex's level of omnipotence in this movie was staggering. He named them too, which means they will somehow decide to stick to the code name assigned to them by a psychopath. Another possibility is that Lex is researching them and heard they're called Flash/Aquaman/etc.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:45
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Does he name them? We just see symbols. I think the files are named "Security_CAM_1" and things of that nature. The files had prefixes like WW, CY, AM, FL or something like that
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Apr 5, 2016 20:46
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I think it's like "Red Blur" or something.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:46
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Equeen posted:
One cannot but notice how those who make such comments never fully identify with them - they either impute such a belief in "letting the farm die" to some mythical orthodox Objectivist, or they themselves endorse the Objectivist meaning, but as something to be criticized, to be overcome. The irony of the situation is that the naïve orthodox Objectivist who sees "parasites everywhere" does not exist, that he is a fiction of the critic himself, his "subject supposed to believe." The only believer in the Objectivism is in both cases the critic himself, who believes through the other, i.e., who "projects" (or, rather, transposes) his belief onto a fictive Zack Snyder.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:52
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Equeen posted:
Well, it starts by hating the movie and not knowing exactly why. So you're looking for bumper-sticker explanations. "They messed up the Kents" is a pretty good one. It's like the Drew McWeeny review of Batman V Superman. He makes some good points but there was a part that stood out to me. It's the part where he said that he hated the ending because "why kill Superman if it's going to be undone in the first 15 minutes of the next movie?" But nobody complained about Han Solo being frozen, and he's thawed out at the 20 minute mark of Return of the Jedi. I feel like McWeeny failed to accurately identify why he hated the movie's ending and instead started scapegoating. Superman died "pointlessly". But Han Solo being frozen is a major character moment that galvanizes Leia, Luke, and Lando to work together. It's almost exactly the same but one is garbage trash and the other is good. I dunno, it just seems like a mis-identification.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:53
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SonicRulez posted:I thought it was kinda corny. Lex's level of omnipotence in this movie was staggering. He named them too, which means they will somehow decide to stick to the code name assigned to them by a psychopath. Oh no doubt it was dumb, but it was the fun kind of dumb that I like. I'm just imagining Luthor messing around with photoshop to create neat little logos for all these metahumans. Or even better he assigned some art department at LexCorp to do it.
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Apr 5, 2016 21:08
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I mean, we can infer from the senator that Lex has brought up these "meta-humans" enough to be considered a kook. Dude has an obsession. Also Snyder being an Objectivist is my favourite new meme. "Did you notice how the superman statue looked a lot like Atlas?  "
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Apr 5, 2016 21:17
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Serf posted:Oh no doubt it was dumb, but it was the fun kind of dumb that I like. I'm just imagining Luthor messing around with photoshop to create neat little logos for all these metahumans. Or even better he assigned some art department at LexCorp to do it. The reason the film works at all in this compromised state is that the very form of it reflects the struggle between art and commerce. There is an enormous amount of emphasis on logos and branding - literal branding in the case of Batman. Superman's symbol loses its meaning because it's exploited. The tension at the end BVS is that The Justice League is a group of freaks and outcasts - something that will be explored further in Suicide Squad - while 'Justice League' and 'Suicide Squad' are brought to us by Time Warner Inc. aka Lexcorp.  In Suckerpunch, this is the inescapable stage on which the women are forced to dance.
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Apr 5, 2016 21:23
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I can't imagine an Objectivist having Superman as their favorite hero. Or worshiping the sacrifice of the 300 Spartans. Or making a movie where an owl wants to be one of the legendary Guardians of Ga'Hoole, defenders of peace and freedom throughout the animal world. Just doesn't make sense.
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Apr 5, 2016 21:23
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wyoming posted:Also Snyder being an Objectivist is my favourite new meme. Man, and they're so close with this one too. It does look like Atlas, but by the end of the movie it's replaced by a simple tomb with people mourning him. Even the graffiti that adorns each is telling; "FALSE GOD" vs. "IF YOU SEEK HIS MONUMENT, LOOK AROUND YOU".
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Apr 5, 2016 21:33
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The ending of this movie makes no sense in an Objectivist reading anyway. Like an Objectivist Superman would fly off to the Fortress of Solitude and wait out the Doomsday storm, not martyr himself.
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Apr 5, 2016 21:33
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Lex knows who Batman and Superman are, so when is he going to tell the government what he knows? Also, one of the video clips Wonder Woman saw was Cyborg's transformation - won't this be an issue when they actually make the Cyborg movie?
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Apr 5, 2016 21:35
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Kurzon posted:Lex knows who Batman and Superman are, so when is he going to tell the government what he knows? Also, one of the video clips Wonder Woman saw was Cyborg's transformation - won't this be an issue when they actually make the Cyborg movie? That movie is set after the Justice League films.
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Apr 5, 2016 21:39
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Well, it starts by hating the movie and not knowing exactly why. So you're looking for bumper-sticker explanations. "They messed up the Kents" is a pretty good one. "Another movie did it" is like the ultimate defense ITT. Do better. Explain why the death and subsequent return of Superman is a good choice for the film beyond that Star Wars kinda did it. The "death is cheap" thing is something comics are relentlessly mocked for by fans and dissenters alike. So why was it a good idea to bring it to the big screen?
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Apr 5, 2016 21:40
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SonicRulez posted:"Another movie did it" is like the ultimate defense ITT. Do better. Explain why the death and subsequent return of Superman is a good choice for the film beyond that Star Wars kinda did it. Martyrdom is the ultimate sign of selflessness.
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Apr 5, 2016 21:43
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SonicRulez posted:"Another movie did it" is like the ultimate defense ITT. Do better. Explain why the death and subsequent return of Superman is a good choice for the film beyond that Star Wars kinda did it. The "death is cheap" thing is something comics are relentlessly mocked for by fans and dissenters alike. So why was it a good idea to bring it to the big screen? I'll let you have your pick: A: Superman is Jesus, and dying and coming back is what Jesus does. B: It allows Superman the ultimate heroic act: sacrificing yourself for the safety of, in this case, Metropolis/Gotham. This inspires Batman to bring together the Justice League. C: Because Zack Snyder gives nary a poo poo about how cliche/overused something is. D: Because it will provide an inherent climactic moment/story beat for the Justice League movie, as well as potential motivation for all of the characters touched by the event in this movie.
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Apr 5, 2016 21:46
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SonicRulez posted:"Another movie did it" is like the ultimate defense ITT. Do better. Explain why the death and subsequent return of Superman is a good choice for the film beyond that Star Wars kinda did it. The "death is cheap" thing is something comics are relentlessly mocked for by fans and dissenters alike. So why was it a good idea to bring it to the big screen? If you read what I wrote and your take-away was "it's ok because Star Wars did it" then reread it until you understand what I was actually saying.
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Apr 5, 2016 21:47
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The point is that Superman's power is in his spirit, not his literal superpowers. By killing Superman right away, the film dispels this idea of an omnipotent daddy-God able to force a solution to every problem. ("They don't know how to honor him except as a soldier.")
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Apr 5, 2016 21:47
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