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BravestOfTheLamps posted:It's actually perfectly normal for people that they don't mourn a fictional character. Especially when the movie makes clear that he's not really dead. Yeah ok it's not like I expect to weep openly, wailing and gnashing my teeth while building a funeral pyre out of seat cushions alongside my fellow viewers when a character dies. There's a whole range of emotions that a good film can bring about with a big climactic death scene. Maybe not feeling much of anything at Superman's death is exactly what Snyder was going for. If that's the case then good for him, mission accomplished. In retrospect I can't say that wasn't foreshadowed by Jimmy Olsen's death.
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Apr 18, 2016 15:27
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Superman is my boy.
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Apr 18, 2016 15:30
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:Yeah ok it's not like I expect to weep openly, wailing and gnashing my teeth while building a funeral pyre out of seat cushions alongside my fellow viewers when a character dies. There's a whole range of emotions that a good film can bring about with a big climactic death scene. Movies don't need to make people feel sad. All the "emotional" range they need is tension and release. Superman's death is cathartic, so it fulfills that purpose. Reserve your sentimentality for real people.
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Apr 18, 2016 15:32
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The Walking Dead sucks, but people freak out over fictional death. Like, people with steady jobs and kids and poo poo. Not just emotionally deprived nerds.
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Apr 18, 2016 15:34
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CelticPredator posted:The Walking Dead sucks, but people freak out over fictional death. That is their problem.
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Apr 18, 2016 15:35
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I was sad when Superman died because I empathized with Lois and I don't really think that's a problem.
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Apr 18, 2016 15:39
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CelticPredator posted:Actually, it's normal they do. Considering how much people lose their poo poo every time a character dies in The Walking Dead or Game of Thrones. If fiction is well constructed, it should be emotionally engaging. Narratives engage parts of the brain that non narrative stimuli does not.
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Apr 18, 2016 15:49
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"So to cap off our two and a half hour Christ allegory, we'll of course end with the savior's sacrifice. What kind of mood do most people associate with the death of Jesus?" "I dunno, Zack, detached ambivalence?" "Perfect! Hey is there any way we could add a cartoony horn sound or maybe a slide whistle in there? No? Too much?"
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Apr 18, 2016 15:53
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A True Jar Jar Fan posted:I was sad when Superman died because I empathized with Lois and I don't really think that's a problem. That's how it's supposed to work. Unfortunately, I was pulled out of the narrative by that point.
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Apr 18, 2016 15:53
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:"So to cap off our two and a half hour Christ allegory, we'll of course end with the savior's sacrifice. What kind of mood do most people associate with the death of Jesus?" Detached ambivalence is actually the right way to react to the death of Jesus. He is just a man, and his death is both glorious yet disgraceful. Hence "detached ambivalence".
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Apr 18, 2016 15:56
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Lol if you cry at the Bible
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Apr 18, 2016 15:57
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:"So to cap off our two and a half hour Christ allegory, we'll of course end with the savior's sacrifice. What kind of mood do most people associate with the death of Jesus?" It's good to know you don't just have a piss fetish.
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Apr 18, 2016 15:59
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Also the main characters in the film are Bruce Wayne and (though her role was truncated) Lois.
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Apr 18, 2016 16:00
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computer parts posted:It's good to know you don't just have a piss fetish. Yeah I try to keep a diversified set of deviancies, you can only watch those R.Kelly tapes so many times before they start getting dull.
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Apr 18, 2016 16:03
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Lol if you cry at the Bible I don't get why this would be a problem.
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Apr 18, 2016 16:04
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Cinema Discusso: the only film discussion place on the internet where you have to actively defend the idea that films might make you feel things. Holy Christ this is a very silly place.
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Apr 18, 2016 16:04
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lazorexplosion posted:Cinema Discusso: the only film discussion place on the internet where you have to actively defend the idea that films might make you feel things. No, it's defending the idea that films need to make you feel sad.
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Apr 18, 2016 16:08
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Apr 18, 2016 16:10
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:No, it's defending the idea that films need to make you feel sad. That's really not what "reserve your sentimentality for real people" implies.
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Apr 18, 2016 16:10
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"I know! It's the film's fault that I'm emotionally dead inside!"
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Apr 18, 2016 16:11
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"Haha look at this loving goon, experiencing emotions while watching Old Yeller. What is he in kindergarten?"
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Apr 18, 2016 16:13
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A True Jar Jar Fan posted:That's really not what "reserve your sentimentality for real people" implies. Hmmm, thinking about it, I should correct myself. Abandon sentimentality. Follow the ways of the Stoics, and armour yourself in self-control. Emotions are a distraction.
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Apr 18, 2016 16:16
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lazorexplosion posted:Cinema Discusso: the only film discussion place on the internet where you have to actively defend the idea that films might make you feel things. Holy Christ this is a very silly place. BravestOfTheLamps is not the "Mouth of Sauron" of the CineD hivemind if that makes you feel any better
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Apr 18, 2016 16:17
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Hmmm, thinking about it, I should correct myself. Why?
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Apr 18, 2016 16:18
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I had a big 'ol grin through the whole ending because that's a drat good funeral montage. The funeral montage is pretty much the highlight of the film, and perfectly expresses that idea that Superman only exists in death. I've noticed, however, that no-one talks about it - because it's not an action or effects sequence. There's no convenient meme.
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Apr 18, 2016 16:19
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I had a big 'ol grin through the whole ending because that's a drat good funeral montage. The funeral montage is pretty much the highlight of the film, and perfectly expresses that idea that Superman only exists in death. Amusingly, the only discussion I've seen about it is that Snyder's an objectivist because of the lettering on the memorial.
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Apr 18, 2016 16:22
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By becoming numb to normal human emotion, you can appreciate the artistic vision of Batman vs Superman I guess. 
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Apr 18, 2016 16:22
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I had a big 'ol grin through the whole ending because that's a drat good funeral montage. The funeral montage is pretty much the highlight of the film, and perfectly expresses that idea that Superman only exists in death. Of course. People complained that "titular fight" only lasted 5 minutes, ignoring that the entire 2 hours leading up was Bruce Wayne working on his plan and Clark trying to shut the Bat down (first through journalism, then through Superman's intervention). But there are people who think the "versus" only refers to the actual fisticuffs, and not the idealogical struggle between the two leads which happened throughout the entire movie.
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Apr 18, 2016 16:23
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Guy A. Person posted:Of course. People complained that "titular fight" only lasted 5 minutes, ignoring that the entire 2 hours leading up was Bruce Wayne working on his plan and Clark trying to shut the Bat down (first through journalism, then through Superman's intervention). But there are people who think the "versus" only refers to the actual fisticuffs, and not the idealogical struggle between the two leads which happened throughout the entire movie. I'm curious, what ideological struggle would that be. (there isn't one)
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Apr 18, 2016 16:24
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lazorexplosion posted:By becoming numb to emotion, you can appreciate the artistic vision of Batman vs Superman I guess. I actually thought it was a pretty great movie so I'm trying to figure out where he's coming from with this stuff. I felt more genuine emotion from it than I do with a great many superhero movies. I also really liked the funeral scene and thought the transition from gaudy Super Statue to the more metaphorical monument was great.
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Apr 18, 2016 16:26
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You guys arguing that the Capitol scene is good: I don't think it works, frankly. The reason it doesn't land is because it really is a subversion of the traditional take on the character in an important way. One of the classic Superman narrative beats is the moment when he finally decides and is capable of acting at his full power: when he throws off the Kryptonite chains or opens his shirt to reveal the classic "S" or steps out of the chamber with his powers restored or whatever. Comic writers know this and that's why the bad ones do the whole red-eye "THIS ENDS NOW" Superman. They have internalized the "critical moment where Supes shows what he's really capable of" in a bad way. The Capitol scene just totally doesn't do that. You're waiting for Superman to act - the anticipation is building - BLAMMO. The room explodes without Superman saying anything. That's the part that doesn't work - the total silence. The failure to act that subverts the character. He could have said 3 words and got interrupted and shut down by Finch and the scene would have played out better and still exactly fit into the theme of the movie. The scene is a huge dramatic downbeat in the film and it needed to be softened up a bit. Reminds me of the tornado scene in Man of Steel: a scene that largely doesn't land because a couple of easily-fixable issues weren't attended to.
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Apr 18, 2016 16:28
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:You guys arguing that the Capitol scene is good: I don't think it works, frankly. The reason it doesn't land is because it really is a subversion of the traditional take on the character in an important way. One of the classic Superman narrative beats is the moment when he finally decides and is capable of acting at his full power: when he throws off the Kryptonite chains or opens his shirt to reveal the classic "S" or steps out of the chamber with his powers restored or whatever. This is a fair point, and maybe him giving a speech to those in the chamber would've been a bit of extra that was needed. The bomb going off is still necessary though, because it's the impetus for society to go from Superman as a divisive figure to a dangerous one, and their rage is personified in Bruce Wayne finally going and stealing the Kryptonite.
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Apr 18, 2016 16:33
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He doesn't even need to give a speech. He just needs to try to give a speech. Even "Thank you, Senator. I'm here today -" and getting interrupted would have softened the blow sufficiently and helped the scene connect with audiences without doing anything to the movie's themes and plot. Unless I'm wrong, and there's some symbolism in Superman never talking to anyone but Lex, Wonder Woman, Batman, and Lois for the entire film.
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Apr 18, 2016 16:38
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lazorexplosion posted:I'm curious, what ideological struggle would that be. (there isn't one) Oh well gently caress I was going to give an explanation but then you answered your own question in the parenthesis there 
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Apr 18, 2016 16:40
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Unless I'm wrong, and there's some symbolism in Superman never talking to anyone but Lex, Wonder Woman, Batman, and Lois for the entire film. It's merely to emphasize that he's a doer, not a sayer.
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Apr 18, 2016 16:42
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Every time Superman tries to explain himself, it blows up in his face. This time, literally. Also worth noting, Bruce Wayne lives in a glass house.
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Apr 18, 2016 16:43
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Detective No. 27 posted:Every time Superman tries to explain himself, it blows up in his face. This time, literally. Even as Clark Kent he's not just fawned over.
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Apr 18, 2016 16:45
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I view the bomb in the same way as the infamous Martha line: narrative cheats used to preempt the title characters from having to put forward any kind of philosophical argument on their stances. You end up with a nearly 3 hour film about ideological struggle without much in the way of ideology. Or struggle.
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Apr 18, 2016 16:46
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:I view the bomb in the same way as the infamous Martha line: narrative cheats used to preempt the title characters from having to put forward any kind of philosophical argument on their stances. If you think a film doesn't have ideology, it's because you believe that ideology.
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Apr 18, 2016 16:47
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:I view the bomb in the same way as the infamous Martha line: narrative cheats used to preempt the title characters from having to put forward any kind of philosophical argument on their stances. Courtroom diatribes is definitely not the way to do that.
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Apr 18, 2016 16:48
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