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Iretep posted:You seem to not understand how sublte the game is trying to be. Irvine going "you want me to kill mama sensei?!" is pretty blatant. The problem is that when Irvine chokes, he straight-up says "this always happens. I always choke under the pressure." As in, he explicitly said this is not a problem with this particular assignment, this is a problem that he has had repeatedly. That's not being subtle, that's just being totally inconsistent. And I think I said it before, but Irvine is so brash and proud that I doubt he'd make such a self-deprecating excuse if the REAL reason was he didn't want to shoot Matron. And that's assuming he'd be quick-witted enough to recognize the sorceress was Matron, then decide he can't just say that because no one else recognizes her, then decide he needs to come up with an excuse why he can't shoot her... I can't really give him that much credit. Further, when Irvine theoretically first saw her when she murdered the president, he never gave so much as a "huh?" No sign of recognition at all. This whole thing was just sloppy. And the GFs must make memory work very differently. Seifer and Squall apparently never really separated before starting GF use, and Zell and Quistis met up with them again before starting GF use, and yet despite being in constant contact with each other they all forgot they've known each other since they were tiny kids? It's very hard to forget about someone when you see them every day. I don't think the game ever gives an explanation for how this set of kids that grew up together and then went different ways all happened to end up on the same team with the same mission in the end. I guess "fate", but that's always the laziest of writing. Cool Ghost posted:But this isn't that kind of story. Squall's got a point - it's GFs that make the SeeDs able to fight the sorceress. Friendship and positive thinkin' aren't gonna keep 'em alive. Did you forget what genre of game this is?
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Apr 28, 2016 03:08
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Schwartzcough posted:I don't think the game ever gives an explanation for how this set of kids that grew up together and then went different ways all happened to end up on the same team with the same mission in the end. I guess "fate", but that's always the laziest of writing. >Cid accepted a charity contract so he had to send out only newbs. This accounts reasonably well for Squall, Selphie and Zell all being together. >Quistis just kinda ended up in the same place with everybody else. Given that (a) she was just fired as an instructor and might not have an assignment yet and (b) she knew Seifer personally and was familiar with his style and ways of thinking, it's fairly logical for her to be part of the team assigned to track down Seifer after he broke out of Garden. >Irvine ... This one is a fair criticism as being too coincidental. Even if you accept NORG and his word that the assassination plot was set to fail, choosing Irvine is indefensible - "I hand-picked the sniper who loses it any time he's in combat" is too blatant of a fuckup for Martine to get away with (gotta at least fake competence if you're going to blame shift). In any case, it's definitely contrived that Galbadia, who mass produced soldiers, just happened to go with the one guy who was part of the orphan crew.
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Apr 28, 2016 03:30
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I'm gonna throw this out there. Maybe Irvine said he always chokes on missions as an excuse, not an actual explanation. He sees old friends again, and realizes they don't remember him at all. And they don't realize they're out to kill who was essentially their mother. I found later playthroughs interesting, looking back at stuff involving Irvine. Certain small touches to him make it obvious he's familiar with these people, but again realizes they don't recognize him. No, I will not say that excuses him not going, "HEY GUYS, REMEMBER ME?! IT'S IRVINE!!!!  " I think that's why he was acting that way on the train after their initial meeting though. To see if maybe he could trigger some memory. It just didn't work at the time.I had a better point to make, but forgot it halfway through. Oh well, my point is I actually like Irvine, and I am one of the few who actually liked this twist when I first saw it. Zell being adopted really threw me for a loop.
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Apr 28, 2016 03:38
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Let's consider what we know so far: 1. Edea ran an orphanage. 2. Edea married Cid. 3. Cid founded a conglomerate of military academies/mercenary contractors/anti-sorceress training facilities that requires a steady influx of child soldiers--ones without families likely especially welcome. What a coincidence! 4. All the kids from the orphanarium somehow end up being recruited by Cid's muderfactories. Amazing! 5. Out of all the child soldiers that Cid's cranked out over the years, the ones that end up in Project: Wifemurder just happen to be the ones who were also children at Edea's orphanage. What a twist! 6. Cid is a colossal dick. Hmm, not sure how this one fits in, but it feels important somehow!
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Apr 28, 2016 03:53
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Wonderslug posted:Let's consider what we know so far: I told you all we should have sided with NORG. Seriously, gently caress Cid. It's all downhill from here. He is just completely awful. Imagine all the SeeDs who probably died on missions completely irrelevant to Project Wifemurder and never even had an inkling that it was their real goal.
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Apr 28, 2016 04:17
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Wonderslug posted:Let's consider what we know so far: Conclusion: Cid is really REALLY mad he didn't sign a pre-nup and absolutely doesn't want Edea getting half of the Gardens. Or it's the most convoluted and long-running assisted suicide plan ever.
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Apr 28, 2016 04:19
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So yeah that line where Cid excused Squall's promotion as "destiny" wasn't random bullshit, he probably knew that he was from Edea's orphanage. I'm not sure how that means he should be the one to kill her, but at least the line wasn't a random hand wave. 
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Apr 28, 2016 06:50
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NikkolasKing posted:I told you all we should have sided with NORG. Choosing to go with NORG would've been suicide for the party, though, since he outright admitted that he was planning to turn them over to Edea to try saving his own rear end when Plan Murder Mommy went belly-up. As much of an inconsiderate rear end Cid is, at least he was willing to stick his neck out for them. Still, it kind of makes me wonder: Was the memory loss from GF use a bug or by design? If it's the former, he's at least got the shield of claiming it was an unknown side effect. If the latter, though? He and all of the rest of the Garden faculty that would be in on it are probably only very slightly better than Edea.
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Apr 28, 2016 08:52
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Regalingualius posted:Choosing to go with NORG would've been suicide for the party, though, since he outright admitted that he was planning to turn them over to Edea to try saving his own rear end when Plan Murder Mommy went belly-up. As much of an inconsiderate rear end Cid is, at least he was willing to stick his neck out for them. One of the Garden Faculty tells you there are rumors of negative side-effects from using GFs but says to ignore them. I want to seriously comment on this scene now. 1. It is by far the longest, most unendurable cutscene I've ever seen in a JRPG with text boxes. I don't mind reading but holy poo poo this scene drags on and on and on. And you can't even mash X through it while thinking about something else because there are several "playable" segments. 2. It kinda sorta justifies Squall. The guy has issues but moreover they are repressed issues because of the demons living in his head. He never could work through his abandonment because he didn't even remember being abandoned. The most defining and scarring moment of his life has just been subconsciously directing the course of his life. That's kind of interesting.
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Apr 28, 2016 09:03
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Burger Flipper posted:I'm gonna throw this out there. Maybe Irvine said he always chokes on missions as an excuse, not an actual explanation. He sees old friends again, and realizes they don't remember him at all. And they don't realize they're out to kill who was essentially their mother. I think a lot of people in this thread are taking Irvine's words a little too literally. If a person says they "always choke" or gently caress up under pressure, it doesn't necessarily mean they mess up 100% percent of the time. It usually just means the person gets nervous like anybody else, and they might tend to focus more on their failures than their successes. Like, you might think Shaq "always choked" on freethrows, but he still made about 53 percent of them
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Apr 28, 2016 09:15
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It really bothers me that the GF thing, aside from being poorly set up, never comes up again. It's a strange thing to inject into the story and literally never deal with it again. Even in as a hilarious twist ending where the characters all end up as vegetables. That said, I really appreciate Cool Ghost's analysis and really digging into everything down to the translation on it. Cool Ghost posted:
Cool Ghost posted:
Aside from Alexander O. Smith's love of Ye Olde English. What next, magic with a k?
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Apr 28, 2016 10:41
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Yeah, I'm like 80% sure Irvine's like about always choking was an excuse. It'd make far more sense than Martine giving Squall's team an incompetent sniper. Of course makes you wonder if Cid somehow pushed Martine to get Irvine on the team in the first place. I can see his logic: 1. Send Squall/Selphie/Zell to Timber 2. Plans to send Quistis over for backup. Then Seifer breaks out on his own, so he sends Quistis over to Timber anyway for backup. 3. He knows that Quistis and Squall will follow protocol and head to Galbadia Garden. He colludes with Martine to create the assassination plot and get Irvine on board - he presumably keeps tabs on the orphanage kids and knows where they went.
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Apr 28, 2016 11:19
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CmdrKing posted:For my money the trouble with the scene is that they sorta double down on everything. EVERYONE was at the orphanage, EVERYONE that wasn't Irvine forgot, EVERYONE immediately pins the whole thing to GF usage. Everyone having that shared background with Edea is important to the plot, so that particular coincidence needs to be there. But they want it to be a reveal, so they don't hint at it until now. They then assume players are going to wonder why nobody brought it up before, so they bake in the GF thing in the background material. Which makes sense, except... most people don't care THAT much. The kids were 5, most people don't remember people they met when they were 5 unless they keep meeting them regularly! They could as easily have just had Irvine be that odd person who really does remember early childhood well and jog everyone else back to it, and it wouldn't have seemed like such an avalanche of coincidence to the audience. Separately the different components of this scene fit well with the lore or themes of the game, but putting them all together like this is a lot to take in at once for the the majority of the audience who doesn't go digging through Selphie's Garden Blog or religiously stalk NPCs. And so on and so on until you have a muddled mess that falls apart at several different seams unless you breadcrumb some justifications both from easily missed hints way earlier and later in the game, and even then it's really flimsy. The sheer amount of coincidences-that-are-actually-explained-but-by-more-coincidences-poo poo shows how little focus there was for any of the writing. It's also apparent in how many things this scene tries do to with some success for some aspects and less in others. In one fell swoop, it wants to - be a big plot twist - set up the next actions of the group - explain several motivations and actions of almost all party members - give some much-needed insight in Squall's past - raise his relationship to Rinoa to the next level - give her a reason to stay with the party - poo poo do you remember Seifer? - talk about Ellone some more - touch upon the themes of child soldiers, memory loss, sacrifices, friendship, commitment, loss, love and like 5 others the game totally has and I forgot at the moment And it takes half an hour because of all that and while a meticulous unraveling like Cool Ghost does is commendable and makes it far easier to see all these threads for themselves and even appreciate them some more, it doesn't make the presentation into anything more than a total mess. It's probably my biggest beef with FF8 and why I still think it's a fascinating, if ultimately too flawed game - I do see the potential, but it's a potential for five different games and stories, not one. I am also really baffled by Irvine's ball throwing ability being influenced by your monster killing stats. It is so pointless and completely unnoticeable to any player, it's a Cool MGS-style Touch only in the most literal sense of the expression, again, very much in style of the rest of the game. Fascinating indeed.
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Apr 28, 2016 12:53
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Cool Ghost posted:
Whatever you say, Zell. 
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Apr 28, 2016 13:07
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: Seifer... My archenemy...
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I think that this scene marks the end of any kind of character development for at least half the party.
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Apr 28, 2016 13:43
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ApplesandOranges posted:Of course makes you wonder if Cid somehow pushed Martine to get Irvine on the team in the first place. With everyone talking about Cid, I just wanted to point out that the assassination was NORG's order to Martine and Cid wasn't actually involved. That's the only slack I'm willing to give Cid.
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Apr 28, 2016 14:33
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I always liked this Cid because he resembles Robin Williams. That's the only reason.
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Apr 28, 2016 14:47
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ApplesandOranges posted:Yeah, I'm like 80% sure Irvine's like about always choking was an excuse. It'd make far more sense than Martine giving Squall's team an incompetent sniper. I don't think Cid himself ever used GFs either. Also, did Seifer ever use GFs, or does he remember everything?
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Apr 28, 2016 16:10
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Silegna posted:I don't think Cid himself ever used GFs either. Also, did Seifer ever use GFs, or does he remember everything? He at least used them in Dollet. Also, since Squall's GF was just kind of sitting in his computer, I would assume most students at Balamb have experience with them.
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Apr 28, 2016 16:36
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I read an article a few years ago that held the theory this was all a metaphor for child soldiers. As in, they had all lost their childhoods (memories) by using the power of GFs (weapons/going to war).
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Apr 28, 2016 17:12
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Silegna posted:I don't think Cid himself ever used GFs either. Also, did Seifer ever use GFs, or does he remember everything? Asking Cid himself to start fighting is kind of harsh considering he probably never wanted to fight in the first place. He created a military school basically to kill his wife and he left the school as soon as he gave Squall command.
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Apr 28, 2016 17:29
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Cool Ghost posted:
This took a full second to sink in, then I laughed.
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Apr 28, 2016 17:31
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: She's the one that takes us back to Laguna's period.
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bewilderment posted:I think that this scene marks the end of any kind of character development for at least half the party. This for me is what makes it such an annoying part of the story. From memory I'm pretty such three of the party member's stories are finished with this flashback. They make way for the upcoming love story... Also, I can't help but read Riona as in quinoa since that discussion earlier.
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Apr 28, 2016 18:40
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Weavered posted:Also, I can't help but read Riona as in quinoa since that discussion earlier. Quina is already spoken for, thank you.  
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Apr 28, 2016 18:46
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Weavered posted:This for me is what makes it such an annoying part of the story. From memory I'm pretty such three of the party member's stories are finished with this flashback. They make way for the upcoming love story...
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Apr 28, 2016 18:51
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MagusofStars posted:Wait, are you sure it's only 3 and not 4? I think Zell and his mum has a scene left, though I may be wrong?
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Apr 28, 2016 19:45
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makes me wonder if there are a bunch of out-of-the-way extra scenes yet to be seen that Cool Ghost will show off that still have characterisation left in them. I'm sure there's at least some stuff with Selphie's blog and stuff
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Apr 28, 2016 22:58
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bewilderment posted:I think that this scene marks the end of any kind of character development for at least half the party. this.
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Apr 28, 2016 23:21
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morallyobjected posted:makes me wonder if there are a bunch of out-of-the-way extra scenes yet to be seen that Cool Ghost will show off that still have characterisation left in them. I'm sure there's at least some stuff with Selphie's blog and stuff There's a side event with Zell, but everything else is pretty much straining the plot through a sieve to try to eke out characterization. I honestly think Irvine is pretty much done as far as the plot goes.
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Apr 28, 2016 23:44
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I don't remember much at all from playing through as a teen but I do recall this scene making me annoyed. Seeing it now, I just feel that for this extreme and so-far-unnecessary contrivance there should be a big payoff later. I'm doubtful.
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Apr 29, 2016 01:00
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I've been really enjoying this LP so i decided to read another LP of my other favorite FF game, which i couldn't finish because i got tired of the mechanics. Basically, it was the worst LP i've ever read. Imagine this LP but only seeing every fifth screenshot, no in between text, and no discussion about whats happening, why its happening, themes, or anything. Thanks Cool Ghost for setting the bar really high. Speaking of other LPs, does anyone know of a good FF9 LP? I love that game and i know there is a ton i missed. I wanna see all the character banter between Steiner and Vivi (i want a buddy cop movie featuring these two).
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Apr 29, 2016 01:08
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The White Dragon has one on the archive. It's pretty neat because there are a lot of references to Hawaiian culture in the translation, and he points them out.
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Apr 29, 2016 01:16
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This appeared on my Facebook today.
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Apr 29, 2016 01:21
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I always hear this referred to as the Muppet Babies twist.
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Apr 29, 2016 01:33
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My problem with this scene is that it's presented like a big twist but it doesn't actually matter. Or if it does matter, it only matters in retrospect because of something that happens later that I can't remember, which doesn't change its immediate impact on the player. We don't get any new insight into the characters, it doesn't change their goals, and it basically shuts down any future character development for the secondary cast because they all have the exact same backstory and it's not all that interesting. It's an incredibly contrived coincidence that doesn't even advance the story at all. Squall could've been close to Ellone by himself and it'd be basically the same. I mean, maybe that's not fair. When I first played this game it was shortly after FF7 (obviously), and in that game pretty much every character has a secret past that gets revealed when you visit their hometown, which simultaneously explains why they act like they do while at the same time giving them a big emotional trauma to overcome later in the game. So when this happened in FF8, my biggest reaction was "what, that's it?" There's nothing for anyone to overcome, and only like 1.5 characters have their current behavior explained at all (Quistis and Squall). Maybe that's more realistic or simply a different kind of storytelling --not everyone needs a tragic past after all-- but it was just disappointing. Zell is a doofus who likes hotdogs and showing off because... he is. He never gets any better and frankly there's no reason for him to be in your party other than coincidence. He has a personality, but he doesn't really have any motives that another random Joe wouldn't share. Same with Selphie, Quistis, and Irvine. They're just... there, and giving them all this shared past does the opposite of making me care about them as people.
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Apr 29, 2016 02:57
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ApplesandOranges posted:There's a side event with Zell, but everything else is pretty much straining the plot through a sieve to try to eke out characterization. I honestly think Irvine is pretty much done as far as the plot goes. Which means he contributed little and nothing to it. I seriously hate Irvine. I don't hate much, I don't even hate this game, in spite of my many criticisms of it. But Irvine is just a flat-out bad character. His characterization consists of "womanizer" and nothing else. He doesn't develop, he fails at one thing he was brought in to do and then he tries to abandon the team in prison. There's not one redeeming thing about him. He might very well be the worst playable character I've ever seen in a JRPG, or at least in the Top 10.
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Apr 29, 2016 03:41
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Clarste posted:My problem with this scene is that it's presented like a big twist but it doesn't actually matter. Or if it does matter, it only matters in retrospect because of something that happens later that I can't remember, which doesn't change its immediate impact on the player. We don't get any new insight into the characters, it doesn't change their goals, and it basically shuts down any future character development for the secondary cast because they all have the exact same backstory and it's not all that interesting. It's an incredibly contrived coincidence that doesn't even advance the story at all. Squall could've been close to Ellone by himself and it'd be basically the same. Yep that's basically it for me. The story could have worked out exactly the same without the twist.
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Apr 29, 2016 04:35
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Fister Roboto posted:Yep that's basically it for me. The story could have worked out exactly the same without the twist. "The main antagonist is the wife of your mentor, isn't that pathos enough?" "NO! MORE PATHOS! MORE!" "Okay, not only is she the wife of your mentor, she's also the mother of practically your whole party. How's that?"
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Apr 29, 2016 05:45
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NikkolasKing posted:Which means he contributed little and nothing to it. Don't give up Hope so easily! Seriously, though, Hope and Lightning were the worst (Snow ended up redeeming himself when he realized how costly his screw-ups were, at least). At least Irvine hasn't actively tried to kill anyone else in the party, nor tried selling them out to save his own skin. Still doesn't mean he isn't a bad character, but... details.
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Apr 29, 2016 05:55
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If anything, the reveal invalidates a lot of the relationships we saw develop naturally. We see how Squall despises Seifer as the complete opposite of the stoic professional he idealizes, and how Seifer is aggravated that Squall is the only one he can't push around. We see how superficial similarities lead to Quistis crushing on Squall, but that each doesn't have what the other really needs. The things Cool Ghost has been pointing out are much more interesting than "they were all childhood friends". There's a certain over-reliance on Freudian explanations in fiction and I'm beginning to think it's because writing excuses in flashbacks is easier than developing relationships between adults. It also states pretty blatantly that the plot only makes sense if every major character has brain damage. People would probably gloss over a lot of the dumber things about the plot of FF8 if it didn't introduce an explanation that's more contrived than what it's trying to explain.
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